Protein Drink during training; PS changes

Discussion in 'Hypertrophy Research' started by dkm1987, Apr 25, 2008.

  1. TunnelRat

    TunnelRat Active Member

    <div>
    (beingisbeing @ May 28 2008,3:14)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I have typically gone for a quarter of my daily protein intake post workout, with 25-100 grams of ultra fuel depending on how worried I was about getting fat at the time.</div>
    Or how about the IF diet...? I end up consuming the bulk of my total calories and protein during a five hour period starting just before my workout.
     
  2. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    While there appears to be a saturation limit (from infusion studies which are in themselves different than ingestion studies) I doubt the same elevations occur and therefore tap out on this upper limit.

    What question remains is how much is the lower limit and is 30 grams at a time even neccessary (see Tang 2007) . Speaking of intact protein and not EAA alone and in conjunction with carbs.
     
  3. beingisbeing

    beingisbeing New Member

    I may switch to IF when school starts up in a week or so. I'm on UD2.0 right now. I love it, but the middle of the week is absolutely terrible, and I can't imagine being able to handle much academically in this brain fog...or even hold up a book with the string cheese arms I have by weds...

    If you could link me to some info on IF man, I'd really appreciate it!


    Dan: Thank you for the reply as well. I'm not sure I followed the upper and lower limit idea. Do you mean upper limit isn't the same and perhaps isn't an issue with digested(us) as opposed to infused protein (study-subjects), meaning I shouldn't worry so much about taking too much at a time?

    Lower limit: I may be able to take less at a time?


    My head is spinning! Whats your personal preference for maximum anabolism, protein and carbs, especially around/during/after workout? if you don't mind me asking?


    Thank you!
     
  4. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    Simple IF: skip breakfast and lunch. Choose cals for rest of day. I've lost a little beef on this: it's not the holy grail either.
     
  5. beingisbeing

    beingisbeing New Member

    hmmm. I'm sure someone will cure my ignorance soon, but I'm still skeptical as to how/by what mechanism the body can assimilate all that protein in under 8 hours alla IF, thus minimizing catabolism.

    It's really been ingrained in me that protein must be spread out through the day if you want it to go to &quot;good use.&quot;

    And Quad, for what its worth, Lyle Mcdonald seems to like stressing the fact that no matter what on a cut of any stripe, you'll always lose some beef. So maybe we're going to have to deal with it and be depressed [​IMG]
     
  6. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    No one has asked if I take 'roids or called me 'beast&quot; for a while now...ah well.
    I may have lacked enough protein. I missed a lot of shakes I should have drank. The reason I really tried IF was twofold; to see if I could stay with it, (I can) and some guys were saying it was the shizzit for keeping the beef, but Lyle is most likely correct.
     
  7. nkl

    nkl Member

    As I have continued to read on the metabolism I'm also becoming less convinced of the protein sparing of fasts. As we have no way to store amino acids, any abundance of protein we ingest will be oxidized or simply gotten rid off. I have more or less become convinced of the greater benefits of a steady stream of ingested proteins, such as Lyle's modified PSMF. I happened to see some graphs of a study in Exercise and Sport Science by Garret &amp; Kirkendall (see link to Google books) where 3.3 grams of protein were ingested per kg, and whoa... they gained twice as much as those who ate 2 grams/kg over a 4 week period (2,8 kgs vs. 1.5 kgs). I have no clue as how much calories they ate (must check up on the study), but according to another source hypertrophy will occur during complete starvation, but protein will modulate the magnitude of hypertrophic response. Lyle's modified PSMF is based on proteins, omega-3/vitamine/mineral supplementation and a lot of veggies. Upping the proteins to 3.3 grams/kg/day might be potent enough to actually grow on. That's a lot of protein to eat. For me, that's 250 grams a day (ouch, that would be expensive too).

    I'm sorry if I have misled you on IF, Quad. I have been doing IF whenever I had opportunity ever since, but it is hard to be a social person with this diet, eating breakfast or lunch with the family (and it is soo hard to get enough calories in during the few evening feeding hours). After reading Lyle's The Rapid Fat Loss Handbook, I've added more protein to the 'fast' and eating more veggies. I'm not sure if I can grow on this, unless I get enough protein...  I will not drop IF entirely, but somehow I need to get more calories in. Snacking proteins might be a solution. I'm also making sure I get my protein shake quickly after my workout. The future will be judge of this ongoing experimentation.

    Edit: The study reported on was Fern BE, Bielinski RN, Schutz Y. Effects of exaggerated amino acid and protein supply in man. Experientia 1991:47:168-172  (link)

    Edit2: For more info see 'Optimal cutting/bulking PSMF/IF' thread.
     
  8. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    Yes, YOU are the reason I lost tha' beef amigo... [​IMG]

    Hey, from an old gym rat's perspective, I was thinking of a crash diet of a healthy veggie soup I did a long time ago. I lost 16 lbs. in 16 days. Even my FACE got thin...as unfortunately did my body.
    1.) Now after that I'd thought of doing it again using the soup, but adding meat or drinking shakes. This also would be a short-term diet for obvious reasons.
    However...it might benefit us to discuss something just along that train of thought.
    2.) I had considered a protein only fast lately, busted up IF style by 8 hours of normal eating, lowcal.
    3.) Another thought was to do singular macros in a day. Protein fast, then carb only, then fatty foods to bed? (that one makes me nervous)
    4.) Protein/fat only mornings, protein/lowcarb midday, protein/fat to bed.

    I'm just tossin' 'em out there; you guys have to sort 'em out! (I can't sleep again...) [​IMG]
     
  9. beingisbeing

    beingisbeing New Member

    Quad:

    I'm assuming we both train something like mon/wed/fri? If so, have you tried eating at or above maintenance on lifting days, and then cutting calories in half(not protein) every other day? I guess this would be similar to your IF but you could spread the protein intake around more evenly and perhaps preserve muscle more efficiently?


    I'm speculating for both of us here, because like I said, when class starts on monday, I don't know if I'll survive on this alternating hypoglycemic/hyperglycemic coma inducing disaster of a diet Lyle has sold me:)


    Maybe we should start a new cutting/bulking thread so we don't get ratted out or banned for this abusive change of subject lol. And on that new bulking/cutting thread there will be NO disputing caloric balance theory hahaha.
     
  10. nkl

    nkl Member

    Being, I have proposed a similar way of eating (actually that is exactly what I try to do), so I agree with you. It is too early to tell how this is working because I have not been that rigorous in counting calories or being able to reach my calorie goals, but nevertheless eat more workout days and less days off. The recent change is to add more protein in the off days (makes sense since PS should be elevated 24 h at least, or less if experienced). Training low volume every day is another PS elevator that we might add to the mix.

    Quad, good idea to toss the ideas around for a while. Invite everyone to the party (err, not everyone...).  [​IMG]

    What should we call this new thread? &quot;Optimal modified protein sparing modified intermittent fasts for bulking/cutting&quot;, or simply &quot;Optimal Cutting/Bulking PSMF/IF&quot; for short? I better start one, then, in the diet section so we do not make this thread go off tangent entirely.
     
  11. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

  12. _Simon_

    _Simon_ Active Member

    okay here we go! [​IMG]

    Dan, does having a pre-workout protein and carbs shake produce the SAME effect as having the same shake after?

    if you had a choice, either pre or post, what would it be? which is more anabolic?

    (reading the FAQ, it states: &quot;The pre-workout protein is still beneficial because it is shuttled to working muscles at a much greater rate than when only taken post-workout, and allows higher intracellular amino acid levels for recovery afterwards&quot;)
     
  13. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    Simon,

    Depends, on the type of protein you are talking about, the timing, what other nutrients are being consumed, fed or fasted, and if consuming intact protein from whole foods (steak, glass of milk or whatever) versus intact from a food powder (protein shake mix) as well.

    For instance one of the largest AUC when measuring phenylalanine uptake has still been when 6 g of EAA was ingested with 35g carbs before training. Whereas ingesting whey either pre or post showed nearly the same response, although the % of uptake still did not match that of the 6g EAA w/35 gram carbs (but that could be methodology issues more so than uptake issues).

    So if you are asking my &quot;opinion&quot; I am a firmer believer in pre than post but it will depend on several other factors and my &quot;opinion&quot; will change based on those factors.
     
  14. beingisbeing

    beingisbeing New Member

    So what if we're talking about whey protein and a blend of glucose polymers and fructose (alla ultra fuel). What would the best M.O. be, in your opinion.

    The training is basic HST.

    The rest of the diet is kind of IF style, only its a more 24/24 split as outlined here

    BTW, you should come and school us ingants in that thread!
     
  15. _Simon_

    _Simon_ Active Member

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Depends, on the type of protein you are talking about, the timing, what other nutrients are being consumed, fed or fasted, and if consuming intact protein from whole foods (steak, glass of milk or whatever) versus intact from a food powder (protein shake mix) as well.</div>

    ah ok, well it would be about 35g whey protein, 60g maltodextrin, 3-5g creatine mono all mixed together with water and OJ in a shake. Normal above maintenance bulking diet, no starvin for moi ;)

    i guess the reason i always took it post was that i thought once you've trained, you'd be all ready to sap it up and i had a silly belief that taking it pre-workout was only for optimizing your energy levels and that all the nutrients you took in didn't go to anabolism due to not having trained yet [​IMG]

    so a pre-workout shake would have all the nutrients flooding in better and cause anabolism faster or more efficiently[​IMG]??
     

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