Really Confused

B

Brian Griffin

New Member
I started HST about 3 weeks ago, and started reading up on the nutrition, Ive always eaten clean meals and just assumed I would grow because i'm eating a calorific excess, and I wouldn't gain much fat because I eat clean.
I also assumed that the fat would be lost in my 2 cardio sessions a week.
Now it seems i was really really wrong im not that interested at the moment being one of these 260lb freaks I would rather be healthy toned looking 180-185 do I still need to do all the heavy bulking and cutting for a 5-10 lb weight gain.

My Diet

Porridge
Protein Shake

Bagle with Peanut Butter
25g cashews and an apple

2 Pitta Breads with 100g Chicken/Turkey
Rice Pudding and 25g Pistachios

Peanut Butter Sandwich
Banana
Protein Shake

Gym

Turkey/Pork/Chicken/Steak
Rice or Pasta
Salad or veg

400g tub of natural yogurt before bed.
 
Brian, sorry if you already answered this somewhere but do you want to gain muscle or lose fat at the moment? If you want to gain muscle you have to eat excess calories (eat more calories then you use daily). This will allow to gain muscle mass but you will also gain fat, that's a given. The muscle/fat ratio is based on the workout quality/quantity. Usually eating little excess in calories (slow bulk) will allow less fat gain but will also limit muscle growth. It is up to you. Just be careful with slow bulks because since all calories in and out are approximated so it is easy to end up with a calorie deficit instead of surplus.
If you want to cut body fat you eat below maintenance. You WILL lose muscle mass but if you eat plenty of protein and keep lifting heavy you should minimize lean mass loss.
 
I want to gain some size but only like 5-10lbs i currently eat at a calorie excess and usually gain 1-2 lb a month, the point I was making is if I dont want to gain 20-30lb do I really need to do all the bulking and cutting, or can I just keep my 3 HST sessions 2 cardio sessions and eat clean, Will I still gain (albeit slowly) if not what do I do eat more just weight train and drop the cardio for a few months then eat less and put the cardio back in to cut?
 
Maybe there are different definitions but to me bulking = eating above maintenance and cutting = eating below maintenance. You can do them with the intensity you want. Bulking (for me) is not necessarily eating an enormous surplus. So if you are eating a little above maintenance you are bulking (call it slow bulk if you want). The caloric result is = calories eaten - basal expenditure - calories used (in exercise). Physical activity such as cardio increase the calories used. You can increase the caloric result by either eating more or using less calories (dropping cardio). You can gain lbm with the cardio if you eat more to compensate or you can eat less and drop cardio just make sure there is some surplus. More surplus a lot more muscle and a lot more fat, less surplus a little more muscle, a little more fat. Of course the fat/muscle ratio is based on your exercise routine.
So, you don't need HEAVY bulking and HEAVY cutting to gain 5-10 lbs of muscle, but you still need to eat surplus and you will still gain some fat while doing so.
 
What is 'eating clean' and why would have an effect on how much fat you gain? Excess calories are stored as fat, it doesn't matter if those excess calories are bacon cheeseburgers or organic whole-grain bagels!
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The whole 'clean-eating' thing is a stupid myth.
 
<div>
(scientific muscle @ May 26 2008,5:18)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What is 'eating clean' and why would have an effect on how much fat you gain?</div>
This is probably due to a correlation of how easier is to get excess calories with &quot;dirty food&quot; then it is with &quot;clean food&quot;.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Ive always eaten clean meals and just assumed I would grow because i'm eating a calorific excess, and I wouldn't gain much fat because I eat clean.</div>

WRONG.
 
Okay first thanks for the replies

Electric so if I do 40 mins jogging and note down what I burn in cals I need to eat that amount back again or just drop the cardio for a while till im at my needed weight.

Sci Mus: this is where my confusion came in I always thought you should eat Healthy, salads, low fats, wholegrain pasta etc but when I got into Bill Starrs 5x5 he said you can just eat high cal foods that are high in protein and you'll gain. If your out and your hungry dont worry about the perfect balance of protein fats cals etc just get your arse in KFC.
So instead of the Nuts and everything I should just eat a snickers instead? then when im at 185 just eat under my daily requirement.
As an aside how far under my daily requirement or does it not matter
 
Calories are important.  Minimum protien intake is important.  Vitamins, minerals, EFAs, electrolytes are important.  Beyond that, you can eat whatever form of carbohydrates or fats you want to reach your daily caloric goal.  Count calories.

Eating healthy is great!  But beyond the basics, it doesn't affect how much of your excess food will go to fat or muscle.
That is a myth perpetuated by fitness magazines and supplement companies.
 
Think it understand more now say your required intake is 2865 anything above that is bulking, under that is cutting, and when your happy with things just eat the maintenance to stay on track.
 
<div>
(Brian Griffin @ May 26 2008,4:52)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Think it understand more now say your required intake is 2865 anything above that is bulking, under that is cutting, and when your happy with things just eat the maintenance to stay on track.</div>
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<div>
(scientific muscle @ May 26 2008,4:18)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What is 'eating clean' and why would have an effect on how much fat you gain? Excess calories are stored as fat, it doesn't matter if those excess calories are bacon cheeseburgers or organic whole-grain bagels!
tounge.gif


The whole 'clean-eating' thing is a stupid myth.</div>
I would like to politely disagree.
You're treating the body as a bomb calorimeter, which it is surely not (even a calorimeter has numerous issues, the physics of which we don't need to get into here).
The body isn't a static furnace, its a complex machine as is oft stated, somewhat annoyingly, that is capable of and in fact engaged in complex metabolic adjustment and adaptation all the time, to say nothing of variegated responses to not only caloric quantity which only considers energy per unit mass under ideal conditions (ideal conditions which we don't have), but also macro-nutrient type.
We all know the body prefers to utilize carbohydrates as fuel, yet as weight lifters/bodybuilders we become idiots the second calories are brought up. 9 calories of fat is NOT the same as 9 calories of carb, because the body prefers to do one thing with the former, and another entirely (STORAGE) with the other. (on a standard diet again, cut out one or more macro-nutrients, things change a bit).
Yes it IS calories in vs calories out, but you're being a bit mechanistic and naive if you think the body doesn't adjust its 'calories out' and storage/burning modalities BASED on not only the potential energy of the calories in, but their molecular composition.
 
Explain how an excess of calories will not be stored as fat (wether its a low fat or low carb diet shouldn't matter afaik).

I was trying to explain why 'clean bulking' results in bodyfat gain the same way that 'dirty bulking' does. If you have another theory, then share it.
 
The only major partitioning factor of the macronutrients is protein. Since amino acids are essential to tissue maintenance, and protein can be converted to glucose by the liver in absence of carbohydrates. Fat can be stored, as well as released and used as energy. Excess carbohydrates can be stored as bodyfat also.
So what will 'clean-eating' accomplish if total caloric intake is the same?
 
<div>
(beingisbeing @ May 26 2008,5:18)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(scientific muscle @ May 26 2008,4:18)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What is 'eating clean' and why would have an effect on how much fat you gain? Excess calories are stored as fat, it doesn't matter if those excess calories are bacon cheeseburgers or organic whole-grain bagels!
tounge.gif


The whole 'clean-eating' thing is a stupid myth.</div>
I would like to politely disagree.
You're treating the body as a bomb calorimeter, which it is surely not (even a calorimeter has numerous issues, the physics of which we don't need to get into here).
The body isn't a static furnace, its a complex machine as is oft stated, somewhat annoyingly, that is capable of and in fact engaged in complex metabolic adjustment and adaptation all the time, to say nothing of variegated responses to not only caloric quantity which only considers energy per unit mass under ideal conditions (ideal conditions which we don't have), but also macro-nutrient type.
We all know the body prefers to utilize carbohydrates as fuel, yet as weight lifters/bodybuilders we become idiots the second calories are brought up. 9 calories of fat is NOT the same as 9 calories of carb, because the body prefers to do one thing with the former, and another entirely (STORAGE) with the other. (on a standard diet again, cut out one or more macro-nutrients, things change a bit).
Yes it IS calories in vs calories out, but you're being a bit mechanistic and naive if you think the body doesn't adjust its 'calories out' and storage/burning modalities BASED on not only the potential energy of the calories in, but their molecular composition.</div>
Macronutrient disposal during controlled overfeeding with glucose,
fructose, sucrose, or fat in lean and obese women

Regina M McDevitt, Sally D Poppitt, Peter R Murgatroyd, and Andrew M Prentice

ABSTRACT

Background: Previous short-term studies (d6 h) showed differences
in energy expenditure (EE) and macronutrient oxidation in
response to overfeeding with different types of dietary carbohydrate.
This finding could have implications for obesity.

Objective: We used 96-h continuous whole-body calorimetry in
8 lean and 5 obese women to assess metabolic disposal (energy
dissipation and glycogen or fat storage) of a controlled excess of
dietary energy supplied as different carbohydrate sources or as fat.

Design: Five dietary treatments were applied in random order:
energy balance (control) and overfeeding by 50% of energy
requirements with fat (Ofat) or predominantly with glucose, fructose,
or sucrose (Ocho). Macronutrient oxidation rates were
assessed from nonprotein gaseous exchanges. Net macronutrient
balances were calculated as cumulative differences between
intake and oxidation.

Results: Increased EE in response to overfeeding dissipated 7.9%
of the energy excess with a variation in EE of &lt; 1.7% across overfeeding
treatments (NS). EE during the Ofat treatment significantly
exceeded that during the control treatment in the lean but
not in the obese women. There were no significant differences
between lean and obese women in macronutrient oxidation or
balances, so data were pooled. Ocho induced glycogen storage on
day 1 (_100 g) but thereafter progressively stimulated carbohydrate
oxidation so that balance was reached on days 3 and 4. Fat
oxidation was proportionately suppressed. Of the excess carbohydrate,
74% was oxidized; there were no significant differences
between the various Ocho treatments. Ofat stimulated fat oxidation
by 18% and suppressed carbohydrate oxidation. On average, 12%
of the excess energy was stored as glycogen and 88% as fat; there
was no significant difference between overfeeding treatments.

Conclusion: There was no significant difference in fat balance
during controlled overfeeding with fat, fructose, glucose, or
sucrose. Am J Clin Nutr 2000;72:369–77.
 
<div>
(scientific muscle @ May 26 2008,5:22)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Explain how an excess of calories will not be stored as fat
...</div>
We can't prove that something doesn't exist. But when we claim that something exists and can't prove its existence, then we must conclude that it doesn't exist if not in fact then at least according to our testing protocol.

A more appropriate request is then: Prove that the excess calories are stored as fat regardless of macro-nutrient ratio. It doesn't have to be you but proof must nevertheless be shown before that claim can become a statement of fact.
 
<div>
(scientific muscle @ May 26 2008,5:22)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Explain how an excess of calories will not be stored as fat (wether its a low fat or low carb diet shouldn't matter afaik).

I was trying to explain why 'clean bulking' results in bodyfat gain the same way that 'dirty bulking' does. If you have another theory, then share it.</div>
Two things up front:

1) I've gotten plenty from your posts. I'm new to this forum, but regular contributors like yourself I've benefited from greatly in my lurking here for the past few weeks.
2) I'm NOT pulling a Martin Levac here
smile.gif
. I'm all about calories in vs calories out, in a sense.

Excess of calories will absolutely be stored as fat, by definition. However, metabolic conversion of carbohydrate/protein to fat uses about a quarter of the calories contained in the excess to begin with. So 100 calories of excess fat intake simply won't store the same way 100 calories of excess protein intake, though I agree, they both will store.
Further, we're not sedentary dude, we're hammering our muscles 3X a week or more! If you have all that elevated endogenous test and growth hormone running around, and you end up with a few extra calories of protein, don't you think more of that will end up in muscle than a few extra calories of fat?
You can accept weeks of hypo-caloric eating resulting in a metabolic shut down. Whats so far fetched about the body adjusting its own metabolic rate AND storage patterns (which have to do with hormones, see below) in accordance with not only the net Joules of potential energy we intake but also the TYPE of molecule they are contained in?

Doesn't the body prefer to store fat, burn carb as fuel (and store it as glycogen), and use protein for building blocks? Doesn't it prefer to use MCT's for fuel, omega 3s for cellular structure(among other things), and slap trans fats onto your butt because there is simply nothing else it CAN do with them?
Yes, once the energy is &quot;in excess&quot; it will be stored. But &quot;the point that is excess&quot; is influenced by macro-nutrient composition, because of its effect on metabolic rate and storage patterns.
Hormonal activity: again not to pull a Martin here, but wild insulin spikes promotes fat storage, period. And we all know what triggers wild insulin spikes, and what they feel like. 1000 calories, as digested by the human gut, of table sug ar is NOT the same as 1000 calories of veggies or even whole fruit for that matter. Try telling a pear shaped hypoglycemic that he would look that way regardless of the macro-nutrient composition of his diet. Are you kidding? Yes thats an extreme of pathology, but the road to that pathology is a spectrum which we all hold a seat on, and furthermore it reflects normal patterns that are just exacerbated by physiological deficiencies in certain individuals.
Your idea of &quot;excess&quot; is based, once again, on approximations and treatment of the body like a static instrument of calorimetry. The body reacts, a bomb calorimeter doesn't.
....I think! I'm no biochemist, to put it mildly.


And again it should be obvious, but I completely agree that clean bulking results in fat gain, but I wouldn't say just as dirty bulking does. I'd say a bit less, significant enough for narcissists like us.


Here is an edit...if that paper reflects an axiomatic truth, then what I've written is BS !
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. However, I'm not sure that it does. If it was run on subjects that were training hard, I'd be more likely to believe. Pete do you have access to any studies that use subjects with high training levels/activity levels, resistance training in particular?
 
Just to be clear as well, since I'm not a biochemist, I have to rely on logic and 'authority.' The guy I tend to rely on for these things is Michael Colgan, you can google him. Be happy to quote excerpts and studies if you guys are interested.
 
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