Rihad's log

Discussion in 'Training Logs' started by HST_Rihad, Jan 19, 2013.

  1. HST_Rihad

    HST_Rihad Active Member

    Just ended my cycle yesterday. Exercise set is mostly similar to the vanilla HST one, with one exception that I decided not to include Squats, and I've already done 3 cycles that way. Format: Weight x Reps x Sets. Or Weight x Reps1,Reps2,RepsN for N sets. 1N, 2N etc means 1-2 Negative reps. I don't do 15's, just start with 2 weeks of 10s, 2 weeks of 5s, and 2 weeks of 5RM/negatives. Weights originally in kg, I'm providing lb numbers too:

    Leg press 247x5x2 (544 lb) - including the weight of the platform of 30 kg (66 lb).
    Inclined bench 82x3,2 (180 lb) - approx. at 35-40 degree angle, impossible to change.
    Leg curls 12x5x2 - measured in # of bricks, about 5-6 kg each (11-13 lb). I just stick to #bricks.
    Pull-ups BW+12.5x5x2 - (BW+27 lb) alternated with Seated Rows 80x5x2 (176 lb)
    Lying rear delt raise 10x5x2 (22 lb)
    BB Shrugs 92x5x2 (202 lb)
    BB Biceps curls 45x4+1N,5N (99 lb)
    Triceps extensions 12x5x2 - measured in # of bricks
    Calf raise 104x12x2 (229 lb)

    Notes:
    Leg press: the whole idea behind the switch from squats was to train my CNS to heavier loads. When I hopefully get to 300 kg (661 lb), I will start squatting again.
    BB Shrugs: dropped weight from 100 kg (220 lb) as I wasn't keeping good enough ROM and cadence (IMO).
    Calf raise: can do more, but the machine isn't really meant for huge weights and maxes at 84 kg (185 lb). I can hang a 20 kg (45 lb) plate or two aside, but the gym owner asked me not to do that as it may break the handles. So I just went for increasing volume and keeping good form.

    Now I'm off for a week of SD, will continue using this same set of exercises starting Jan 28.
     
  2. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    Do one-legged calf-raises to get around machine issues. You can also do them on the leg press, just adjust your feet once you raise the weight so that only the balls of your feet are touching the pad/platform. Go to Google Image and do a search for "calf raises on leg press" to see what I mean.
     
  3. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    Ditto Alex's suggestion, or wear a weight belt and add plates to you rather than the weight stack. I'm assuming you're using some form of standing calf machine.

    Enjoy your SD! :)
     
  4. HST_Rihad

    HST_Rihad Active Member

    Hey guys, thanks. Lol, a great idea on doing normal rep progression - hang plates onto myself using a belt. The problem is I could practically hang no more than 2 plates 20 kg each (total 90 lb), which just isn't much for calves, those are strong buddies. Doing negatives (lowering weight with one leg) has much more room for growth available.

    AlexAustralia, your one legged calf raise (or rather extension) is excellent for doing negatives: lift with both legs, lower with one. I've tried that, I just don't want to be overthinking my calf progress by too much. They look good enough already, and are the least prioritized group.

    BTW I found the videos leg press machine would also work for normal weight progression. Not sure if it's a safe position for bigger weights / lower reps, as balls of feet aren't really a strong position, especially at the end of set. I'd need to use my feet in the end to lift the platform an inch or two higher to secure it with hooks. I know that from doing heavy leg presses. But I'll try to work my technique at lower weights to see how it feels. Thanks.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2013
  5. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    #90 plus the machine's weight stack, not #90 on its own! :D I do take the point that the weight stack on the machine you are using is paltry for calf raises though. Ask your gym owner to get a decent standing calf-raise machine! Better to do single-leg raises and hang extra load off a weight belt.

    Something I used to do when I was half-bothered with calf development was to stand in a rack on a raised wooden platform, ~4" in height, positioned with balls of feet on platform and with heels unsupported; then, holding on to a heavy bar using straps, I was able to do a regular standing calf raise with as much load as I could handle. I had it set up so that the bar slid up and down against the rack uprights. Much easier to balance that way. (A Smith machine would have been ideal for this but I didn't have access to one.) Using a bar and free weights makes a load progression easy and I prefer holding a weight lower down in my hands than pressing on my shoulders.
     
  6. HST_Rihad

    HST_Rihad Active Member

    Yeah, that's what I meant. Back in the day I would hang a 20 kg (45 lb) plate aside and some more easily, until I was asked to be cautious not to break the grips - they aren't really meant to hold weights, although they look much like it :) Now I have to go easily and not exceed 10 kg (22 lb) aside by very much.

    We do have Smith & leg press machines. I'll use whichever proves more convenient & safer, thanks. My calves are probably bigger than any other muscle I have, so I may just let them be and not go very hard on them for the time being. Cycling through 18-15-12 reps seems nice for now.
     
  7. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    TBH, if your calves are already a strong point, why waste valuable energy on them at all? Use it on your weak points instead. I inherited skinny calves so it made sense for me to hit them as much as possible. It never really made a lot of difference but at least they are 'there' now! :)
     
  8. HST_Rihad

    HST_Rihad Active Member

  9. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    Your lack of hypertrophy still boils down to not eating enough. Without the food, you won't consolidate strength gains (if any) into size gains. Additionally, 5x3 will get your stronger than 3x5, especially if that 5x3 is progressive within a workout.
     
  10. HST_Rihad

    HST_Rihad Active Member

    I am eating. Chicken mostly, some buckwheat or rice or boiled potatoes, eggs, cottage cheese, 1-2 days a week fish, beef.

    5x3 is 3 sets, right? 3x5 is 5 sets? Of course I meant 3 sets 5 reps. Progressive within a workout - you mean ladder, increasing weight from set to set? I don't do that. After workout I start with current working weight as per HST regimen.
     
  11. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    You aren't eating enough because by your own admission you're aren't bigger (volume) or heavier (mass). If neither of those, is increasing, but especially the latter (and ideally both), you're not gaining muscle.



    5x3 = 5 sets of 3. And yup, ladder.

    For instance, lets say my 5RM is 105kgs for bench. After switching to 5x3 (instead of 3x5), my workout would be 100, 102.5, 105, 107.5, 110. The next workout I would attempt to push all sets up by 2.5kgs etc and so on. Or if my 3RM is 110; 105, 107.5, 110, 110, try for 112.5 etc. I added a tremendous amount of strength and size lifting like this over a period of 3 months. The only reason I'm not doing it now is equipment access (ala, lack of it).



    HST regimen says:

    -Frequency
    -Progressive load
    -SD when appropriate
    -Take care of your joints
    -Eat, eat, eat, eat, eat ...



    And doing 5x3 with a ladder structure falls within HST principles, so long as you are progressively increasing the load over time.

    Also, what exercises do you currently do in your workout? Is it more complicated than this;

    A
    Incline Bench
    Chins/pulls
    Leg Press
    Leg Curls
    Upright Rows

    B
    Flat Bench
    Rows; Pendlay (BB) or Cable - whatever you're most comfortable with
    Leg Press
    Leg Curls
    Upright Rows


    Maybe deads thrown in too ... ?

    ?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 21, 2013
  12. HST_Rihad

    HST_Rihad Active Member

    Alright, alright, I give up. My mom gets mad at me getting fat, so this time only! only for last few weeks I tried to keep from eating "too much". This might be one of the reasons (the other being insufficient volume).

    I provided my setup in the first posting, how come you didn't notice? :) No deads, not even squats (yet).

    The A/B setup you gave is fairly limited, there's nothing wrong with that.

    Frankly I don't like it very much. Take this for example:
    (assuming 105x5) 100x3 & 102.5x3 are more like warming up. The last 3 may be considered efficient. That's more or less what I did 80x5, 80x2. Or 82x3, 82x2. I didn't like how I felt. I hope 3 sets of 5 will bring in some new growth due to more volume. We're into bodybuilding, we just don't have to do those triples to grow. At least Wernbom's study tells us that.
     
  13. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    No one is telling you to get fat. What's being said is that you won't build muscle if you're not in surplus. And if you aren't putting on any weight at all, you clearly are not in surplus.


    Re: your setup - I thought that was what you just finished, sometimes people change the exercises.

    Wernbom's study has a few issues with it. Not to say there's nothing useful in it, but I certainly can't recommend blindly following such a limited study.

    Re: triples - I'm merely giving you an indication of what you can do to achieve better results. If nothing else, you aren't becoming bigger. If//when the food issue is resolved, there's no reason to train in a way that takes advantage of it. Using weights heavier than your 5RM is also recommended by Bryan, if that makes you feel any better (you seem to hang on his every word, so maybe his explicit approval will make you feel better).
     
  14. HST_Rihad

    HST_Rihad Active Member

    Yup, I'm aware of the recommendation of picking 2-3RM weight for doing 1-2 concentric + 3-4 eccentric reps, but total volume is apparently larger than in your setup of using concentric only.

    p.s.: following Bryan's advice on the matter is first logical thing to do after deciding to use this method.
     
  15. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    Considering what Bryan or Borge (or anyone) has to say is one thing, and a sensible one at that. Following advice blindly due to its source is a mistake though. Are you familiar with Lyle McDonald? He disagrees with Bryan on several key points (frequency, SD, application of load etc) and if there were only a single training&diet guru on the internet it would probably be him. Anytime you want an expert with an opposing view, one can be found.


    You will build more muscle by becoming stronger and eating more. It's no more complicated than that.
     
  16. HST_Rihad

    HST_Rihad Active Member

    Sure, because all programs sharing basic principles of hypertrophy will work. In the end it all boils down to min. load+min. volume+sufficient frequency, i.e. you won't probably get very far doing one set or with an empty barbell or huge volume & weight only once in a month. Lyle's generic bulking routine might work at a certain stage (like all other strength programs), although he definitely can't back up his theories with the way he himself looks (I guess he's not into BB himself). As Lyle himself admits it's a cross between higher loads of DC & frequency of HST. There's no SD, so due to RBE you pretty much have to work closer to your RM most of the time to produce any gains. But load back-cycling is still expected to be done every 6-8 weeks. So if we look closer, it IS HST in one of its permutations :) I'm just not comfortable with the haphazard way it got presented by Lyle. There's no explanation, no diving into scientific details, just the "shut up and lift, dude" type of attitude.


    I don't want to get stronger, or more precisely, I don't want to have to work in the 1-3RM range and stress my joints by too much, increasing risk of chronic or acute injury, or otherwise making the process seem daunting and unpleasant. First thing I want to try the volume approach: 30-60 reps per MG at 68-85% loads. I would increase load to as much as 90-100+% for negatives just as a logical continuation, but I don't have a constant & reliable spotter to assist me, so I wouldn't be able to do that on bench press. Sure I can use negs for many other exercises. I'll start aiming at that 30 range gradually, one 5-rep set at a time. Then if all that doesn't work, I'll look for ways to keep progressing.
     
  17. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    Lyle's favourite exercise, and I believe one-time Olympic-hopeful pursuit was speed skating, so no, a BB'er's physique is useless to him. Lyle's perfectly willing to give you the scientific details, he just doesn't want to give 200pages of it for free - buy his ebooks or find a free copy somewhere, should take about 5minutes on Google.

    And no, his routines are not HST. The distinguishing characteristic of HST is it's SD function. Otherwise you're just doing any old progressive-load program. There isn't a lot unique about HST, but that discussion is hardly relevant anyway.



    If you spent a few moments looking, you will find MANY comments from Bryan about keeping volume to a minimum. 30 reps at your (6x)5RM is going to f**k you up far worse than 10-15reps in 3RM range. No one is suggesting you do singles. I'm saying that you should follow HST properly, and not screw around with either excessive volume or progressive load (which is what you are doing when you stop lifting at 5RM on the dot).


    *They're not really negatives if you doing weights at 100% 1RM and below. 'Negatives', are generally done from 120% of your 1RM and up

    **Instead of bench press, use dips as a way to do negatives for your chest. Better choice of exercise anyway
     
  18. HST_Rihad

    HST_Rihad Active Member

    How about 30 reps at my 6x5RM (or only 3x5RM at my level)? That's the whole point of going into more volume, you're sacrificing a few % of the load. Adhering to HST principles of progressive load and staying within your 85%, I fail to see how that's going to be a huge problem. You still don't seem to like it, why?

    It does resemble Lyle's generic bulk: you have a certain volume you have to do each w/o, and you attempt to increase load whenever you can still staying within that volume.

    Yeah, I realize progressive load in negatives might bring you to as much as that, that's why I wrote 90-100+.

    That's a great idea, thanks. I could use that on negatives.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2013
  19. HST_Rihad

    HST_Rihad Active Member

    That's older info. I've trained like that for 3 years. Now he believes in Wernbom's study.
    And there are several posts in this forum:
    http://thinkmuscle.com/forum/showthread.php?38951-Help-with-the-progression&p=212512#post212512
    http://thinkmuscle.com/forum/showthread.php?38775-Going-to-Start-1st-HST-cycle&p=211331#post211331
    http://thinkmuscle.com/forum/showthread.php?19322-R-I-P-HST&p=105240#post105240
    http://thinkmuscle.com/forum/showthread.php?39042-Training-Question&p=212966#post212966
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2013
  20. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    The Wernbom meta review has a lot of issues. That isn't to say there's nothing good in there, but it's not all on the money, just like the studies it (unintentionally) contradicts weren't, etc etc.

    I feel like I'm trying to have a discussion with a fanatic. Conviction to your viewpoint is a credit, but don't be so narrow-minded as to not question yourself.

    And once again, the reason your gains have stopped is diet, rather than the training.
     

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