Shoulders - Ditching the 5's?

[mikeynov]

Sorry to keep going on about this, but I think I have isolated the location of the very mild pain in my shoulder. It is more toward the back of the shoulder. If I do a double biceps pose, I get a twinge at the back when I rotate the shoulder for the pose.

Thanks.

The only definitive test would be in person, but based on your symptoms, the problem is most certainly rotator cuff related, and at a guess, damage/inflammation to your supraspinatus. I would ditch overhead pressing entirely and any other exercise that irritates the area for the time being.

While it's still acute like this, you may even want to be cautious doing stuff like lateral raises (in particular) or external rotations. Hedge on the side of being overly cautious. I say this as a person who accidentally tore (a couple muscles of) his rotator cuff last fall, and had very few warning signs, and all of them were extremely minor. I.e. this stuff can sneak up and bite you far more quickly than you'd think.

 

[Renky]

Mikeynov - Thanks for sharing your experience and thoughts. Much appreciated. Sorry to hear that you had this happen. Are you back from this episode yet, or is it a long road to recovery? Did you have to undergo surgery?

 

[mikeynov]

Mikeynov - Thanks for sharing your experience and thoughts. Much appreciated. Sorry to hear that you had this happen. Are you back from this episode yet, or is it a long road to recovery? Did you have to undergo surgery?

I'm recovered in terms of being able to use most of my basic exercises (dumbbell benching, chinning, rows and the like), but the shoulder is definitely not quite the same. In my case, I have at least one full thickness tear in the supraspinatus, so it's possible that my shoulder may never fully heal minus surgery.

At this point, however, I only really notice it during a select few movements, so I've elected against surgery. I am hoping that, over time, I can get it close enough to 100% to never need surgery, but we'll see.

 

[Renky]

Mikeynov - Can I ask what exercises you were using prior to the shoulder injury? Also, what action did you take with recovery? I plan to take about 4 weeks off with both shoulders (even though it is only the left one that has the issue) and when I get back to training them, the 5's and heavy weights are a thing of the past. I am thinking that I will keep them in the 8-10 rep range. I think I will try really light weight first with 25 reps, then 15's and then 10's and see how that goes. I think there is an article somewhere by Bryan about muscle stimulation can be achieved with light weights also. I have used Max OT for over a decade, so lifting very heavy is hard to get out of the system. Listening to your story (and I am sorry to hear it), I believe my situation may only be just the beginning warning signs of what may come if I ignore. I think I only have inflammation. Yesterday I did laterals with 20lbs for 10 reps and my shoulders felt looser and seemed to feel ok, but DUMMY me did the last set at 25lbs and that weight aggravated the left side. Like I said, I have heavy lifting ingrained in me now and I need to give that away.

I was thinking today about my shoulder and I can remember doing some cable cross-overs in a gym about 21 years ago and I did the left shoulder an injury then. My shoulder twisted in a weird way and hurt. Last time I did those and believe my left shoulder has always had a weak link to it ever since. I think while I have been using natural movements with presses, it is the ultra heavy weights that have gradually inflamed it. Just my opinion anyway.

I really hope I can recover fully and get back to shoulder training again at a later date - with lighter weights!!

 

[mikeynov]

Mikeynov - Can I ask what exercises you were using prior to the shoulder injury? Also, what action did you take with recovery? I plan to take about 4 weeks off with both shoulders (even though it is only the left one that has the issue) and when I get back to training them, the 5's and heavy weights are a thing of the past. I am thinking that I will keep them in the 8-10 rep range. I think I will try really light weight first with 25 reps, then 15's and then 10's and see how that goes. I think there is an article somewhere by Bryan about muscle stimulation can be achieved with light weights also. I have used Max OT for over a decade, so lifting very heavy is hard to get out of the system. Listening to your story (and I am sorry to hear it), I believe my situation may only be just the beginning warning signs of what may come if I ignore. I think I only have inflammation. Yesterday I did laterals with 20lbs for 10 reps and my shoulders felt looser and seemed to feel ok, but DUMMY me did the last set at 25lbs and that weight aggravated the left side. Like I said, I have heavy lifting ingrained in me now and I need to give that away.

I was thinking today about my shoulder and I can remember doing some cable cross-overs in a gym about 21 years ago and I did the left shoulder an injury then. My shoulder twisted in a weird way and hurt. Last time I did those and believe my left shoulder has always had a weak link to it ever since. I think while I have been using natural movements with presses, it is the ultra heavy weights that have gradually inflamed it. Just my opinion anyway.

I really hope I can recover fully and get back to shoulder training again at a later date - with lighter weights!!

I did all the usual exercises - barbell benching and overhead pressing, chins, rows, dips, that kind of thing. The main exercise which really irritated things was the barbell overhead press. Not so much seated barbell or dumbbell work, but standing. The only occasional ouchies I got in my left shoulder were from standing overhead pressing, and they happened rarely enough, and went away quickly enough (i.e. felt fine within a few days in the worst case scenario), that I never paid it much heed. However, this past fall, I got another ouch in the left shoulder doing standing overhead presses and my left shoulder never really got fully better, and other things started to irritate it. It was bad enough that, at one point, I couldn't even do chinups.

In terms of recovery, what I did was initially exclude any/all exercises which bothered it noticeably. This meant no overhead anything (pressing or chins), and a focus on dumbbell work for benching and lots of rows and external rotation type work. I also abandoned the low bar squat, which seemed to aggravate the injury, in favor of high bar squatting. I also preceded this with a lot of time off, and have taken a few blocks of 2 weeks off ala HST to help encourage further recovery.

Over time it has definitely improved, but as I said earlier, the shoulder is still not quite the same as pre-injury. Even during my normal movements I'll feel a tiny bit of random pinching or discomfort here or there, but nothing too scary. At this point I'm not sure I'll be going back to barbell movements for pushing, though might consider barbell benching at some point. I have no real intention of barbell overhead pressing any time in the remotely near future, despite the modern internet wisdom that they can't possibly hurt your shoulders (thanks to Rippetoe).

 

[Renky]

I keep wondering what the result will be with my shoulder mass/muscle when I stop doing the heavy weights. Has anyone gone from doing super crazy heavy stuff to a more moderate weight for exercising?

I feel like when I get back on shoulders after taking a short break, the weights are going to be a fair bit less than what I have been doing.

Before HST, I did a decade of Max OT where shoulder presses were super heavy with max reps at 4-6. I just wonder if you can actually still maintain or even grow with the lighter weights and higher reps?

This all might sound ignorant, but to be honest I have never done high rep ranges before HST and still wonder if the 5's are what still bring the best results? Even while being on HST, I have seen 15's and 10's as a means to get to 5's.

I remember Arnold saying that for T3, he had to use light weights and high reps due to his heart condition after surgery. I guess it worked for him?

Thanks,

 

[Old and Grey]

I have never lost size when going to lighter weights. For the past year I have only used light weights (20 lbs or less) for shoulders and have not lost any size and think my delts are more pronounced, especially in the rear that wasn't being hit with heavier weights. I do my lateral raises seated so I am getting no swaying cheating movement which can cause injury since you lose form. It makes the lighter weights seem much heavier. I also never lose muscle tension by letting my hands go all the way to my sides when doing lat raises. I also do an external rotation exercise with bands which has helped strengthen my rotator cuff stabilizer muscles and worked the rear delts nicely. I could probably go back to heavy OH Presses but won't risk it since I am satisfied with the lighter weights.

If you tear a rotator cuff, you will probably be out of any weight training for at least 6 months so heal first and then decide what it is you want to accomplish versus the risk.

O&G

 

[HDLou]

I know this is probably said a lot, but I don't juice. I have never even taken any of the stuff. Must admit, I have been tempted, but never did try it. I take Tribulus, but that is all natural...

I just used the calculator and below is my drug free potential (thanks by the way) -

<tbody>
[TD="bgcolor: #000000"] Chest: [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #000000"] 50.7 in [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #000000"] Biceps: [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #000000"] 17.9 in [/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #000000"] Forearms: [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #000000"] 14.1 in [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #000000"] Neck: [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #000000"] 17.7 in [/TD]

[TD="bgcolor: #000000"] Thighs: [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #000000"] 28.5 in [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #000000"] Calves: [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #000000"] 18.8 in [/TD]

</tbody>

<tbody>
[TD="bgcolor: #000000"][/TD]

</tbody>

Looks like I have maxed out on chest size already and arms have a ways to go. I do understand that back adds to the chest size, but to be honest, I have not trained back except for one-arm reverse rows or chin-ups (where I am targeting biceps in both exercises). This calculator shows me the imbalance even more. Arms need more work...

I am roughly estimating that I am at about 16% body fat. I was planning to lean out a bit the next cycle, but if I need to bring up arms I probably should hold off a little.

Thanks.

Looks like your primary focus should be your lower body based on ur measurements given.

 

[Renky]

O&G - Thanks... It looks like I don't have much choice with doing lighter weights for shoulders anyway, but it eases my mind that you have had good success.

HDLou - Those measurements were from a max size calculator based on wrist and ankle sizes and not my actual measurements. Looks like I have passed some of those measurement forecasts by a little.

 

[HDLou]

O&G - Thanks... It looks like I don't have much choice with doing lighter weights for shoulders anyway, but it eases my mind that you have had good success.

HDLou - Those measurements were from a max size calculator based on wrist and ankle sizes and not my actual measurements. Looks like I have passed some of those measurement forecasts by a little.

Renky, I no those measurements arent urs in that chart. I guess i quoted the wrong post. I was referring to ur 23"thigh measurement and 16"calves which are an inch or so smaller than ur arms are currently. Based on those measurements it sounds like ur legs are lagging behind ur upper body, especially the thighs.

Sometimes measurements arent the best thing to go by. A guy could have a large chest measurement but still have weak chest development and wide flaring lats and thick back muscular development since the back makes up the bulk of that measurement.

You didnt list ur waist and hip measurements so I cant tell if ur lower body squats are building ur hips more than thighs due to form or wrong stance but squats should build ur thighs up without much problem when performed correctly.

 

[Renky]

Granted... My quads are not so great in regards to size. I need to work on them a bit, but due to having some hip issues (born with a rotation of the hip) I am limited to doing just hack squats. Also, I train alone with basic weights. I never wanted have massive quads anyway though, so I do not want these to get too big.

My calves are being targeted along with my arms and higher training frequency. My calves look very defined as is, so we will see how it goes.