Shoulders training

M

mad-gainer

New Member
In the shoulders day, do I have to do the military press sets and the dumbbells press or they are the same?
In other words can the military press be replaced by dumbbells press or they are two different exercises?
 
For some people the barbell press overhead uses more triceps than delts, because of the outward push on the bar. (me.) Dumbells have a way of isolating the delts a little more, but as Sci said, they're pretty much one and the same. Feel them out and compare.
If you like the barbell more, try and do them narrow as is comfortable, to lessen the outward push, and lengthen the ROM.
 
It's easier to use a greater load with a barbell... I prefer barbell movements for the shoulders, but if you don't care about those kind of lifts and just want shoulder size, then DBs should probably be fine.
 
I would use dumbells for a more advanced lifter worried about a symetry imbalance- for pure mass and strength (building your foundation) LOAD IS KING.



     IMHO for the ultimate in mass developement go with a standing push press and ACCENTUATE THE NEGATIVE , using a bit of leg push will get much higher loads to the lockout position and the slow (relatively) negative will  yeild impressive strength and size in a very short period of time. This also follows the HST principle of "big" compound movements in wich you will get big bang for your buck so to speak. You will hit places that a strict sitting press will not.


   Of course the "grand daddy" of them all would be (again IMHO)the standing clean and press where you basically upright row (with some leg drive)flip the bar quickly and proceed to press out the bar overhead - this will hit your delts twice each rep once on the rowing portion" and again on the press ;and the collateral effects on the core , traps -in fact the entire upper back is really hard to beat in terms of bang for buck, again accentuating the negative portion of the press will grow those delts very quickly . Hope this helps.:)
 
Yes, clean and press is awesome. I also like high pulls and push press, but clean and press is just... well, it ranks up there with deadlifting for me. The feeling of all that weight over my head is a huge rush.
 
Great exercises and I know from experience how effective the push-presses are with negatives; everyone should do them.

However, a clean is not basically an upright row. When the arms bend in a clean it's not for pulling, the second pull is finished and the arms are bent only for getting under the bar and catching it.
 
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(liegelord @ Apr. 03 2007,23:28)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Either way you choose to do them, do them standing.</div>
Standing military is a fantastic core building exercise. If my target was to specifically hit shoulders however, I personally would choose seated. It would allow me to use more weight without being limited by my core capabilities. Just my thoughts.
 
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(quadancer @ Apr. 09 2007,07:36)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">for some reason I can lift more standing.</div>
really? i tend to use standing military until i hit the heavy weights.for one i cant breath properly and anything over 180lbs starts to put pressure on my spine.
 
185 IS my heavy!
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(DanOz @ Apr. 08 2007,20:39)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(liegelord @ Apr.,23:28)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Either way you choose to do them, do them standing.</div>
Standing military is a fantastic core building exercise. If my target was to specifically hit shoulders however, I personally would choose seated. It would allow me to use more weight without being limited by my core capabilities. Just my thoughts.</div>
I can appreciate that. However, unless you have a workout partner, you wouldn't be able to do negatives as discussed with push-presses.
 
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(quadancer @ Apr. 03 2007,17:52)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">For some people the barbell press overhead uses more triceps than delts, because of the outward push on the bar. (me.) Dumbells have a way of isolating the delts a little more, but as Sci said, they're pretty much one and the same. Feel them out and compare.
If you like the barbell more, try and do them narrow as is comfortable, to lessen the outward push, and lengthen the ROM.</div>
For me, behind neck presses target the lateral delts a lot more than OH presses from the front, which hit the front delts a lot. I also seem to have slight DOMs in my traps almost all the time from OH pressing. It seems to hit my traps quite well, even tho it's static for them.

Obligatory warning: some people have trouble with BN presses, but I never have. Probably best, though to exercise some caution and see how they treat your shoulders. If you have no problems with them, they are great.

The only time I had shoulder problems from OH pressing was doing regular OH presses, I think from either being too jerky at the start or getting the bar too far out front and thus putting too much strain on my RCs.

I do think it's very important with any OH pressing to keep your core tight, your scapula and upper back tight, and be cautious about &quot;jerking&quot; the bar at the start. It's hard to get the first rep started since you begin in the eccentric position under full load, so you need good solid form from the start of the lift.
 
I too am able to lift more standing than seated , even without the leg drive of &quot;push&quot; pressing (ie. strict military) perhaps it's because for me sitting = sitting on my bench facing the uprights with no back support, perhaps others use a different set up with some form of back support ?

     My bench has a setting for a 45 degree angle at which I'm quite sure I could lift substantially heavier loads than standing even - but to me that would be a &quot;very&quot; inclined bench and not an OH press...
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Lately I've been working some upright rows (wide gripped to nipple area) into my routine as I was working around some alarming shoulder pain recently and they cleared everything up and now my shoulders feel great-weird huh?
 
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(liegelord @ Apr. 04 2007,21:57)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> 

However, a clean is not basically an upright row.  When the arms bend in a clean it's not for pulling, the second pull is finished and the arms are bent only for getting under the bar and catching it.</div>
I stand corrected, my knowledge of the OLY lifts and their proper names , forms ect. is rather limited. I use the clean &quot;proper&quot; using leg drive and momentum to get the bar clear to the chin area when using relatively heavy loads , at other times with lighter loads I have used a &quot;rowing, flip type&quot; motion in the lower portion after basically doing a separate dead , so far I've let the load dictate how I get it to the chin area.

Of course I'm very interested in the form which will allow the most weight to be put up in position for the press and as a result of your post am now googling OLY cleans to try to find the best form to get the most weight up in position for the &quot;push&quot; portion .
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(liegelord @ Apr. 10 2007,00:05)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I can appreciate that.  However, unless you have a workout partner, you wouldn't be able to do negatives as discussed with push-presses.</div>
I'm with you now!
 
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(Lifting N Tx @ Apr. 10 2007,00:38)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">For me, behind neck presses target the lateral delts a lot more than OH presses from the front, which hit the front delts a lot.</div>
I use a cambered bar for my BTN presses - in reality, the actual weights are beside the head, similiar to the DB movement, and only the cambered part of the bar passes BTN. This is as close as I can get as the shoulders won't allow BTN with a BB!
 
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