small increments vs. repeating workouts

[imported_flow]

It has been stressed many times that small increments might be beneficial for strength, but one shouldn't go below 5% RM in order to elicit an optimal hypertrophic response. If this caused too much zig-zagging, one should rather repeat workouts than use smaller increments.
My question: does it really make a difference whether I increment 2,5 lbs each workout, or 5 lbs every other workout? The rate of progression (5lbs every other workout) is identical.
Thus, if repeating workouts is a sanctioned practice, shouldn't smaller increments be sanctioned, too (I'm not talking about 1/16 lbs microloading )? Or, conversely, shouldn't repeating workouts be "outlawed" because it decreases progression rate? I just can't believe that my muscles and CNS are so smart that they can distinguish between the two methods of progression mentioned before, and adapt in different ways.

 

[mikeh]

here a blast from the past...........

Why small increments wouldn't

Mikeh

 

[jdreich]

Hi,

I0m also concerned about this issue. Since my RM's are very low, I can't use 10 lb. increment on many exercises.

Can some of the experienced lifters take a look at:

My routine
(all weights are in lbs. unless otherwise noted on the name of the exercise).

and see if I'm doing too much zig-zagging or does it look good?

I started today on my first workout of my first HST cycle after a 16 day SD (I'll be sore tomorrow) and still have time to adjust some.

Thanks!

JD

 

[arcturus]

Hi again Juan
For squats, are those the weights you are using on each end of the bar? If so that would be 165 for 5RM which, at 5%, calculates to roughly 8 lbs so round up to 10 and your increments on squat could be 10#. You could increment on alternate workouts, this works fine. The "guide" rule of thumb is 5% of 5RM for increments for compounds, and 2.5% of 5RM for isolations.
Hope this helps, it works for me.
Luck and PEace

 

[mikeh]

JD,

IMO I would add 5% don't worry about 10 lbs
(see 5lbs -vs- 10lbs post)
and add weight everyother WO.

For Squat try:
-------15----------|---------10--------|-------5-----------|
25,25,30,30,35,40|40,45,45,50,50,55|50,50,55,55,60,60|

I'll bet by the end your first cycle you'll be squatting more than 60

Mikeh

 

[imported_flow]

Thanks mikeh. The old thread provided more than enough "food for thought".

 

[jdreich]

Thanks Mikeh!

Hi ARCTURUS!: the weights you see in my routine are totals, not on each end of the bar (I see you remember some of my earlier posts but I have learned).

Do you agree with what Mikeh said? It sounds reasonable, although today I feel very sore on my quads from my first workout and NOT sore on other body parts. Do you think I should increase volume (sets or weight?) on the other "non-sore" parts? Maybe I'm starting with to low a weight?

JD

 

[arcturus]

Yes Juan, I agree with Mikeh, that is good advice. Seems you should have more weight on the rows, did you test your RMs before you started? I have found that my thighs are the first muscles to complain at the start of a cycle too. It doesn't mean the others aren't being stimulated.
Paz y Suerte

 

[jdreich]

Hi Arcturus,

Since it's good advice, I'll change the squats and other exercises that I'm starting too low. I'm trying to stay on the 5% range recommended.

Quote[/b] ]
Seems you should have more weight on the rows, did you test your RMs before you started?

Yup, I tested them :-( Maybe my maxes will improve fast

As always, thanks for the help.

Hope tomorrow my soreness (I can barely walk&#33 subsides a little and I can complete my squat sets

Saludos!

JD

 

[Keebler Elf]

Soreness isn't neccessary, tightness is good tho!

It takes me 3-4 sets of back work but only 2 sets of chest to get some tightness next morning. I always wake up and put my lats/pecs in a stretch and feel a little resistance.

I currently do 2 sets for quads but should probably do another because I rarely get any tightness there although two sets of hams works. So you just gotta experiment.

 

[jdreich]

Hi Keebler Elf,

Quote[/b] ]
I currently do 2 sets for quads but should probably do another because I rarely get any tightness there although two sets of hams works. So you just gotta experiment.

Yeah, I'll go tomorrow and time my workout and if I have time (my first one was a little longer because I wrote some stuff on my Excel printout, changed weights, etc.) left, I'll add 1 more set to some body parts.

I have a lot of pain in my quads and a little now on my shoulders (24 hours after my first workout of 15's). Maybe I'll add another set to DB Curls and Tricep Extension then I should be fine. I don't have any tightness or soreness in my chest, and I'm already doing 2 sets of BB Incline. Maybe the added weight on my second workout would do more damage

What did you do for your second cycle? I've seen that a 5-10 lbs. increment to "all lifts" is recommended? I suposse that means a 5-10 lb. increment to each of my RMs (and NOT to each lift in every workout which would give a 30-60 lb. increment in RMs) and adjust from there?

Thanks,

JD

 

[Keebler Elf]

Yeah, just add 5-10 to your RMs. Although I blew past my 5rm by 10-15 pds on my first cycle so it was 5-10 on top of that!

Second cycle I adopted a linear approach and did not use 15-10 micro-cycles. That was my best results.

 

[jsraaf]

Keebler Elf -

Quote[/b] ]Second cycle I adopted a linear approach and did not use 15-10 micro-cycles. That was my best results.

By this do you mean that you figured, say, your 5RM and decremented downward from there with no zig-zag, OR do you mean you used something like a 12-10-8-6-4 RM scheme instead?

 

[Keebler Elf]

The first one. I started with about 25-30 reps and let the load determine how many reps each workout.

I set up the cycle working back 8 weeks/ 3x week from my new 5rm.

 

[jdreich]

Keebler Elf,

Quote[/b] ]
Yeah, just add 5-10 to your RMs. Although I blew past my 5rm by 10-15 pds on my first cycle so it was 5-10 on top of that!

You adjusted weight between microcycles (including 15s and 10s) or changed your 5rm after the first 2 weeks of 5s?

Quote[/b] ]
The first one. I started with about 25-30 reps and let the load determine how many reps each workout.

25-30 reps? I don't think I get it right. For your second cycle you figured your 5 RM then how you decremented? A whole HST cycle has 24 workouts. If you exclude the last 2 weeks of the 4 weeks of 5's (where you don't increase weight) then it's 19, let's say 20 for calculation simplicity.

You could decrease 5% each workout from your 5 RM till you get to 0 the first workout of 15's (5% x 20 workouts). How did you practically do it?

JD

 

[Keebler Elf]

Quote[/b] (jdreich @ Feb. 26 2003,10:38)]You adjusted weight between microcycles (including 15s and 10s) or changed your 5rm after the first 2 weeks of 5s?
JD

I kept pushing past the 5rms into weeks 7 & 8. I was stronger for 15s and 10s too but I just kept to the plan until the last few weeks.

Quote[/b] ]25-30 reps? I don't think I get it right. For your second cycle you figured your 5 RM then how you decremented? A whole HST cycle has 24 workouts. If you exclude the last 2 weeks of the 4 weeks of 5's (where you don't increase weight) then it's 19, let's say 20 for calculation simplicity.
You could decrease 5% each workout from your 5 RM till you get to 0 the first workout of 15's (5% x 20 workouts). How did you practically do it?

Your right it wasn't 8 weeks it was 6 (plus 2 with 5s/negs) and the secret is that the 5% idea was not talked about then and I used 5 pound increments for squats/rows/bench etc. Now that more is known I would just use ~5% and repeat workouts.

Keep in mind that I still started with around the same loads as my first cycle but instead of slowing down the reps to stick with an arbitrary 15 reps I prefered to do faster/normal reps which just happened to work out at 25-30 reps to get alot of lactic acid burn.

I aslo only did one cycle like this and returned to 'vanilla' HST because it was more simple to set up and I didn't have much zig zagging any way. I still dont push for RMs tho.

 

[Keebler Elf]

I see I didn't answer you actual question

starting from 5rm I worked back 17 workouts. I just played around with the increment size so that the very first workout was close to what I started my first cycle with. This worked out to about 5 pounds for the big exercises at the time.

An example of my smith squat back then was:

5rm=65kg/ inc.2.5kg every workout

22.5, 25, 27.5, 30, 32.5, 35, 37.5, 40, 42.5, 45, 47.5, 50, 52.5, 55, 57.5, 60, 62.5, 65 => 2 weeks of 5s/negs.

p.s. I have had to edit that progression 3 times to get it right

It's 3.30 am here

 

[jdreich]

Keebler Elf,

I get it.

My problem right now, which I won't be able to really fix until my second cycle (when I expect to have higher RM) is that my RM are low and close together (15s from 10s and from 5s) so I have to repeat a lot of workouts so I don't:

1) Start each microcycle with a weight that's too low and,

2) Reduce the amount of zig-zagging.

I have tweaked my workout so I reduced a lot of zig-zagging.
The one exercise that I have more problems with is DB Lateral Raises, it looks like this (weights in KG):

--- 15s ---
2-2-2-4-4-4

--- 10s ---
2-2-4-4-6-6

--- 5s ---
6-6-8-8-10-10

The 5s looks ok, almost no zig-zagging, but the 15s and 10s...

Any suggestions?

JD

 

[Keebler Elf]

Looks like my first cycle. Are your 2kg DBs yellow or pink!

You know how I fixed it. DB upright rows instead. Hits the side delts just the same except is assisted by biceps and traps.

Quote[/b] ]My problem right now, which I won't be able to really fix until my second cycle (when I expect to have higher RM) is that my RM are low and close together (15s from 10s and from 5s) so I have to repeat a lot of workouts

Yeah that is the problem with pre-determined RMs. Some people have a perfect spread and others are just really close together. But remember that they're not essential to the principles of hypertrophy. In a perfect world the weights should increment linearly and reps/sets/RMs are all just a way to put it together.

Like I said, my linear approach was my best cycle even tho I did alot of things wrong. I am in my first week of SD now but when I type up my next cycle it will be linear. 5% increases with repeated workouts.

 

[jdreich]

Quote[/b] ]
Looks like my first cycle. Are your 2kg DBs yellow or pink!

Man! If I see you out there I'm gonna hit you with those (blue) 5lb. DBs!

Fortunately, in my gym they have those pink, yellow and blue DBs, but also the "regular" ones (with plates) in 2 KG fashion and increments.

I saw a post the other day saying that if someone feels embarrased to be lifting those punny weights early in HST, they can just say they are "warming up" for they're workout sets

I'm sure my second set will look a lot different and I will be erasing zig-zagging as times goes by.

I have faith in the system and will see how it goes. For now, the only thing I know fir sure is that my legs keep hurting more and more as time goes by. I don't know how many squats I'll be able to do tomorrow (second workout of 15's) since I can barely walk, but I'll try anyway.

"Active recovery" it's called... right...

JD