Straddling the fence

quadancer

New Member
I've been in the middle of the latest "war" in the search for the perfect or best equation for diet, being basically open-minded enough but having many friends on the "old" side of science. This caused me to research a bit seeking things advantageous to me personally for hitting my goals of being large, lean, and strong.
Some of you have hit upon the extremes of nocarb to even eating old cats flattened by cars, whilst others stand by the tried-and-true let's get fat then thin methodology.
It appears that there IS science supporting BOTH sides of our discussions (some good, some bogus) and there are anecdotal evidences walking around the gyms that can also support either. I have discovered the problems with the true ketogenic diets and understand now why things must be TIMED, and not entirely keto for a BB'er.
I'm merely posting this link for the sole purpose of my assumption from all I've studied lately that this fella has very nearly the best way to do it, although some others are saying pretty much the same thing. This guy speaks to those of us lacking labcoats, and explains it all very well, so here we go:
http://www.outlawmuscle.com/forum....ic+diet
 
You may want to copy that article over here. I think outlaw is no longer allowing new registrations... not for sure about that, but they were saying something about that before after the big bust last year.
 
quad,

this guy is almost right on.  His diet is almost identical to mine.  For example, this is my daily meals:

1.morn-meat/organs and fat
2.2 hours later I lift.  (I drink a raw honey/ACV/water/glutamine/creatine drink as I lift.)  As an ecto I need the extra carbs.
3. post workout is raw honey/meat/fat
4. meat and fat before bed.

If I need extra meals throughout the day I toss in more meat and fat and small amounts of the raw honey or fruit.  As an ecto I can manage a few extra carbs.

Only place where I dont agree with him is that I think fat should be much higher then 40%.  It should be more around 65-80%.  The reason is as follows:

when protein goes above roughly 30% of calories for too long, the body suffers "rabbit wasting disease."  If your carbs are kept very low, and sufficient cals are eaten, then with fat at only 40%, protein will need to be arounf 50%!  Quite dangerous. You can read about it here:

http://backacrosstheline.blogspot.com/2007....me.html

There was a study done that pointed out that protein at around 30% was best for BB's but I cant locate that at the moment.

Anyway, so other then fat %, I agree with the guy.  I do think however that the diet is best raw as I would not eat that much fat cooked.  Also, the rawer the protein source the more efficient and thus less that is needed.

As a version you might better tolerate let me suggest getting grass fed meat and just cooking the steaks rare.  Add to that raw coconut oil, avocados, and palm oil and maybe a high quality cold pressed olive oil.  (Raw suet is still best and is antibacterial and has no taste, so if you can stand that raw at least it makes a high  fat diet very easy and healthy.)  Cheap and high quality coconut oil can be gotten here:

www.appleadayandbeyond.com

Look for the garden of life brand.  Coconut oil will up your metabolism and supply you with healthy forms of saturated fat.

Quad, at least eat some raw egg yolks as well for healthy forms of Vit A and cholesterol.  You dont want cooked cholestreol or synthetic A.  Vit A and cholesterol are quite needed for health and actually for BB.

Sounds like you have a good handle on it.  If you want anymore help mapping out a healthy way to achieve the above, just let me know.  Afterall, whats the point of getting huge if you arent healthy at the saqme time right?

God Bless
Jeff

PS: You can register still. It lest me at least.
smile.gif
 
Here it is just in case:
Most trainees lose WAY too much size and strength when losing bodyfat. They simply go to extremes with caloric restriction, while usually being miles away from optimal macro-nutrient profiles. Add to much high intensity cardio and you have a great recipe for catabolism.
With the proper approach to diet and training you should continue to build strength the whole time you diet. I know this may sound like heresy to people that have been lead to believe that the best one can hope for is holding onto what you have or more likely only losing a little muscle while dieting. THESE PEOPLE ARE FLAT OUT WRONG!
You CAN build substantial amounts of muscle WHILE losing bodyfat. This is what I have the majority of my trainees doing. Not because this is the ideal situation, but simply because most people come to me overweight and under-muscled. It is NOT an optimal situation as it is easier to build muscle in an environment with an abundance of macro-nutrients and kcals.

But……..that doesn't mean you need to be a lard-ass to build muscle. An optimal situation is getting the trainee down to 7-8% then doing a mass phase and "bulk”, to 10-12% and repeat.

THERE IS NO REASON TO WALK THROUGH LIFE A FAT-ASS WHILE GAINING MASS. IT CAN BE DONE VERY EFFECTIVELY WHILE BEING RELATIVELY LEAN. You will look and feel much better about yourself if bodybuilding is your goal.
I rarely make drastic changes to routines from mass to cutting cycles. The only things that may change is a slight decrease in volume if someone is being very aggressive with bodyfat loss. And by the way, I do not recommend this approach. Being extreme, as in trying to strip fat at a very fast rate is usually a recipe for catabolism. With the proper approach to diet and training you should continue to build strength the whole time you diet. I know this may sound like heresy to people that have been lead to believe that the best one can hope for is holding onto what you have or more likely only losing a little muscle while dieting. THESE PEOPLE ARE FLAT OUT WRONG! If you are training and dieting properly you will be able to add strength and at least a some size while stripping the fat.

Let me take the time to address those people (trainers especially) that use weight training to burn additional calories. This is soooooo absolutely mis-guided. Lifting weights is an anaerobic activity. The energy pathways are mostly ATP and glycogen. Doing endless sets in the gym to burn more calories is a cruel joke played out on those people that subscribe to its practice. Weight training should be used to stimulate muscle growth....period.
Aerobic work is what you need to increase fat loss. Light intensity cardio, done at an intensity level that will allow one to talk fairly normal while being done is the best activity for using fat as a fuel source and keeping catabolism from occurring. The rest is up to diet, which should be a timed carb diet, as in little or no carbs until post workout. To answer your question in brief, the same routine that works best for you while focusing in size should be the one you use while dieting.
I will post much more info here about how to go about losing body-fat effectively without becoming "Captain Catabolic", or spending your whole life on a treadmill. Until I do though, here is a hint.....timed carb diet. Just enough carbs to:

Keep performance good

Keep you from going crazy, like when you do a keto diet

Keep thyroid from shutting down

Retain some semblance of being semi-normal (not really)

Once you understand the ratio's it's simple as can be to balance the macro-nutrient profiles/K-Cals to give you whatever degree of fat loss is desired. WHILE maintaining progression in the gym! Yes, you should still be able to continue to make progress with your poundage's while the bodyfat slips away. If you're not able to build strength and add at least a reasonable amount of muscle while dieting, you are simply doing it wrong, or are being WAY to aggressive with caloric restriction, or overzealous with cardio--or both.

There are no surefire percentage guidelines to use that can determine the correct macro nutrient profile. Two routines I wrote very recently are a good example. Both lifters weighed approximately the same amount (200+- a few lbs) and both had the same goal of gaining LBM while keeping fat gain minimal. Based on responses to my questionnaire and the subsequent phone interviews the diets varied 1200 calories a day for these two. Without knowing a lot more, here are a couple of guidelines and info-bits to take into account:

Protein should be 1.5-2 grams per lb of bodyweight unless you are WAY overweight, in which case it should be scaled back somewhat.

If you are getting fat, either overall kcals are too high, or carbs are too high. Usually the latter. If bodyfat is coming on too fast, reduce the carbs until:

A) Fat loss gains subside

B) Performance starts to suffer

If B) occurs first add a few more carbs and reduce fats to compensate for the cals if needed.



A couple other things that are important are:

No carbs at least 3 hours before bed, unless it is post-workout.

No fast cartbs unless it is post-workout.

Do the “Anarchy Stack” while bulking. It will help keep you lean.

Doing low intensity cardio 3-6 times a week will help keep you lean with little impact on gains unless you are a fairly extreme hardgainer or have a physical labor job.

These are just a few pieces of the puzzle, and I will keep adding to it. Don't want to give it all up at once-lol.

OK, Here is more info for everyone:

Timed Carb Dieting

Most of the people that come to me seeking personal training advice have their number one priority listed as dropping bodyfat. And when I say most, I am talking about 75-80%. The sad part is a big percentage of those people were NOT fat when they started bodybuilding. Yes, they got that way trying to “bulk up”. I guess you can say they were successful at “bulking” if you consider fat to be “bulk”. What they should have been doing is “muscling up”. That is rarely done until the trainee is quite experienced. The yo-yo approach can work well if you are blessed with a great metabolism……few are. Had they done it right they wouldn’t be in that situation. But, past mistakes are best left in the past. This article is about how to leave those mistakes in the past where they belong, and give you some general guidelines about timed-carb dieting, which I FIRMELY believe is the best approach to dropping the bodyfat while at a bare minimum retaining 100% of your muscle mass, and in the VAST majority of cases, adding some muscle and lots of strength while shedding the unwanted fat.

Before I outline the timed carb strategy, I am going to go over the typical types of diets followed by those in search of their abs, and talk about the pros and cons of each technique. Lets get started!

Low calorie, low fat diets
This is probably the #1 approach taken by those that have taken the plunge into the realm of dieting and it also happens to be the #1 reason many are afraid to diet. Why are they afraid? Because past experience has taught them that when dieting, they lose hard-earned muscle. And with this type of diet you can EXPECT at least a 50/50 muscle to fat loss ratio! YES! You lose 10 lbs and at LEAST 5 is usually muscle!!! Why? You first need to understand a bit about bodyfat metabolism. Your body stores bodyfat as “reserve fuel” in case of famine. Which is not much of a problem in today’s world in industrialized countries. OK, now you’re fat and you decide to drop it using this approach. The problem is, that when carbs are present, the fat burning pathways, which are driven by an enzymatic process are SHUT-DOWN, because carbs produce the release of insulin in your system, and insulin stops the enzymatic processes that allows you to burn bodyfat as a fuel source.

But wait! Calories are too low to fuel basal metabolism, and since your body can’t burn fat what is left? Ahhhh, you guessed it! Protein! Where does this protein come from? Well first your body will convert the recently ingested protein to glucose, but that still doesn’t cover daily caloric demands. So what next? Yup, your body starts catabolizing it’s own muscle to use as a fuel source, and…..you LOSE!

ISO-Caloric Diets
This is the diet made famous by Barry Sears of the “Zone Diet” fame. The idea here is to make the diet as balanced between protein/carbs/fats as possible and reduce insulin secretion as much as possible. These types of diets do quite a bit better at holding onto muscle while beating down the fat than low-cal, low-fat diets, but once caloric levels get low enough to drop bodyfat levels at a reasonable rate, you will still be chewing up a bunch of muscle unless on a LOT of gear, and you won’t really be on an ISO ratio if you are going to be getting enough protein to build/maintain muscle. These types of diets (with additional protein skewing a true iso-caloric profile) are GREAT while adding mass, but not really what the bodybuilder needs to get rid of bodyfat. Same problem as listed above arises since carbs/insulin are still present.

Keto Diets
These diets are based on the fact that when you reduce carbs to ZERO, and keep it that way for a period of anywhere from 12 hours to 48 hours (dependant an a variety of factors) your body will shift from first burning carbs, to then burning fats, to ultimately converting fats into ketones, and using the ketones as the primary fuel source. The name given to this process is ketosis, hence the name keto-diet. Keto diets are protein sparing, which means your body will tend to hold on to protein (muscle) which is exactly what we want when dieting.

These diets do work extremely well for dropping bodyfat while holding onto muscle. Just what the aspiring bodybuilder wants. So what’s the catch? Well……the catch is that to achieve and stay in actual ketosis, you usually have to be carb-free about 2 days. These diets are typically done by going without any carbs for 5 days (sometimes 6) and then doing a 1 or 2 day “carb-up” and repeating the cycle. Sound simple? Try it and then tell me how easy it is. If you can breach that stumbling block, you then reach the second problem. Without ANY carbs for so many days performance in the gym suffers. So while these diets are protein sparing, they don’t allow you to go all out in the gym, and you end up losing strength because you are held at reign in the gym. The third big reason they fail many is because with zero carbs, and low calorie levels, thyroid metabolism tends to get S-L-O-W-E-R. Bad thing! Even with these drawbacks, this is not a bad diet for dropping bodyfat and definitely many notches above the previously mentioned diets. But……there is a better way! Enter timed-carb dieting!

Timed Carb Diets
A timed carb diet works on the same basic principle as a keto-diet. Take away the bodies preferred fuel source (carbs) and provide enough fat in the diet that the body will switch to using fat as the fuel. But instead of going 5-6 days without ANY carbs, this diet allows you to take in carbs when they are most needed, and least likely to spill over into fat stores—right after the workout. Also, since we are not worried about actually hitting ketosis and staying in ketosis, if you slip, or just feel the need to bump up carbs a bit to replenish glycogen stores, you didn’t just bump yourself out of the ketogenic state you just spent 2 days to achieve.

What do these diets accomplish?
Fat is burned as the preferred fuel source and protein (read that muscle) is spared.
Performance in the gym stays good.
Thyroid function remains higher for a longer period of time.
You don’t go out of your head waiting 5 days to eat some damn carbs!
OK, now the how-to of a timed carb diet. Again, we are trying to get the body to switch from being a carb or protein-burning machine into a fat burning machine. Remember, if caloric levels are low, and carbs, thus insulin is high, your body will convert protein to carbs via glucogenisys and that is to be avoided at all costs. Anyway, to get on the path of burning fat as fuel, we simply remove the carbs out of the equation, AND keep fat in the diet at (at least) a 40-50% ratio. This lets the body know there is still a primary fuel source (fat) and allows it to be burned as fuel, while sparing protein

So, we decide to start a timed carb diet on Monday. Sunday night you cut out the carbs about three hours before bed. When you wake up in the morning blood sugar levels will be very low, and your body will be wanting some carbs---too bad, it doesn’t get any! You will eat only fat and protein. Ensuring fat makes up at LEAST 40% of the caloric profile. You may have a leafy green salad with oil based dressing, or some string-beans, or other such low-carb veggie, BUT NO MORE THAN 6-8 grams of carbs per feeding. You keep this up right until pre-workout, where an apple is allowed IF you feel the need to put a few carbs in your system to raise energy levels. MOST guys do not find this to be necessary and if it does not provide a big advantage DON’T do it. If the carbs don’t help much, have a small protein drink and proceed with the workout.

Post-workout, and it’s time to replenish the carb-stores in the muscles you just worked. As the vast majority of you already know, immediately after a hard weight training session there is a “window of opportunity” in the muscle cell when insulin sensitivity is very high and the body is most receptive to nutrient uptake. So…..you slam down 65-100 grams of fast liquid carbs (malto-dextrin, dextrose, and yes, even sucrose will work). About 10 minutes later follow it up with a 65-100 gram whey protein drink. As soon as you are hungry again, you can eat a small “regular” meal with a 40/30/30 protein/carb/fat profile to “top off the tank” of glycogen stores in the muscle. Then, you are back to zero or trace amounts of carbs until the next workout.
You then repeat the this format for a maximum of five days, and then have a 1-2 day carb-up. On days that you don’t train, you don’t eat any carbs except for a green salad or two. You do not have to run these no carb to carb days for the full five days and for many of you, having a lower ratio of no carb Vs. carb days will be advantageous. Also you do NOT have to do the carb days back-to back. You may do a couple of no carb days, followed by one or more carb days. This is determined on YOUR metabolism and how fast you want to drop the bodyfat.
 
He then goes on to say:
Do’s and don’ts:
If you don’t keep the fat ratio AT LEAST 40% your body will just continue to use carbs as fuel. How does this happen if all you are eating is chicken breasts as an example? Well your body has no problems converting protein to carbs and WILL do this if it doesn’t sense an alternate fuel source (fats.)
This type of diet tends to work best with lower overall workout days, so if you are a volume trainer who is in the gym 6 days a week (bad idea in any case IMO) you will see decreased results since every day will be a carb day. It will still work however.

Log your food intake for at LEAST a week to ensure you are hitting your numbers for both macro-nutrient profile, and overall kcals. You might just find out how far off you are from where you “thought” you were.

Your carb-up days are designed to refill the glycogen stores in the muscle, and bump up caloric levels a bit to keep your thyroid off balance. They are not go all-out berserk pig-out days. MANY, MANY lifters make this mistake and cancel out all the fat loss they achieved up until the carb-up day(s).

Do cardio when dieting. No it is not mandatory, but it makes such a big difference for such little effort and time expended that is extremely short-sighted to not include it as part of your fat-loss plan.

Don’t be in a big hurry to drop the bodyfat. You didn’t get fat overnight (well, some of you almost did) so don’t try to lose it overnight. You should work along the lines of about this much fat loss a week:
150-200 lb trainees, 1.5 lbs a week
200-250 lb trainees, 2 lbs a week
250+ 2 to 2-1/2b lbs a week

Going much more aggressive than that and strength gains will slow or stop, and catabolism may set in.

If you are just starting a reduced volume (or realistic training program) the scale may be worthless at first. Many people are able to gain a significant amount of muscle when dieting like this. Use the mirror and calipers (or better yet hydro-static weighing) to determine your rate of success.

You WILL end up looking flat by day 3-4, this is NOT representative of what you will look like when fully carbed-up. Remember, each gram of glycogen in the muscle brings 3 grams of water with it. When glycogen stores are down (and they will be) when doing low carbs you will “appear” smaller. It’s just water, don’t sweat it!

This type of diet lends itself well to getting a large percentage of daily caloric levels from protein ****** and EFA’s (essential fatty acids), and that makes it convenient to do.

I will at some point put out another article aimed at how to stay lean while adding mass, and as you might guess it is a variation of this basic format.

There you go, get that damn bodyfat off you and become a true bodybuilder. You know, one who isn’t afraid to take his shirt off-lol.

And, again, If you want ALL the pieces of diet/routine and supplementation laid out for you including exact macronutrient and kcal requirements, consider having me train you!

http://www.ironaddicts.com/articles/lose%20bodyfat.htm
I hope I don't get in trouble for absconding with his info; tried to contact him but no answer yet.
 
Wow...I couldn't read it all...but its got me thinking?

Bulking to 10 to 12% from 6 to 7 is definatly outside of the norm?
 
He said "optimal". Read it first.
I'd be happy just to drop fat and keep mass, which I've been doing better with this time due to heavy lifting and no cardio, but if there's a system which allows me to bulk lean, I'm all for it; hence my personal investigations. I'm putting on fat WAYYYY too easy these days.
 
Wow, what a thread! Should be made sticky.
My diet only controls calories in vs. calories out. Since the beginning of this year, my body fat went from 21.9% to 15.3% and my lean mass went from 130 lbs. to 134 lbs. That’s why I completely disagree with people who say that you will lose lean mass on a cut.

Anyway, I find the topic very interesting and would like to implement the ideas into my diet. Which foods can one eat to get to 40% of fat of total calories without going straight to the oil can? Ugh!
 
This is the third keto or lowcarb plan I've seen where they talk of the refeeds without putting down any formula for that. All that is said is basically "don't go overboard" or you lose your ground you've worked all week to gain (or lose, in this case). I'll try tonight to find something on that; I have a couple of other resources. Lyle's board may have some info; I've not read his but he's pretty well recommended.
My early guess would be to use the same amounts of carbs that you'd use as if you were doing a regular cut. It's only one day, and you're only trying to refill glycogen in the muscles, not break the ketogenisis (?) down.
 
<div>
(quadancer @ Mar. 31 2008,10:01)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">This is the third keto or lowcarb plan I've seen where they talk of the refeeds without putting down any formula for that. All that is said is basically &quot;don't go overboard&quot; or you lose your ground you've worked all week to gain (or lose, in this case). I'll try tonight to find something on that; I have a couple of other resources. Lyle's board may have some info; I've not read his but he's pretty well recommended.
My early guess would be to use the same amounts of carbs that you'd use as if you were doing a regular cut. It's only one day, and you're only trying to refill glycogen in the muscles, not break the ketogenisis (?) down.</div>
Till now I used to do carb cycling which is exactly the same thing as TCD. On day 1-6 i used to eat 100 grams of carbs and on day 7 i ate 700 grams of carbs. Beacuse i read on some article i should eat 10 grams of carbs per kilo of lbm. But im not sure if its true.
 
I repeat the formula for knowing how much glycogen the muscle need (besides the approx 100 grams of glycogen a day the brain needs). <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Lyle states in his book, The Ketogenic Diet, that <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">on a standard ketogenic diet, with aerobic exercise only, muscle glycogen levels maintain around 70 mmol/kg with about 50 mmol/kg of that in the Type I muscle fibers ... Below 40 mmol/kg, exercise performance is impaired. Total exhaustion during exercise occurs at 15-25 mmol/kg. ... Additionally, when glycogen levels fall too low (about 40 mmol/kg), protein can be used as a fuel source during exercise to a greater degree. ... Even without the consumption of carbohydrates there is some replenishment of muscle glycogen stores following exercise. A few calculations will show that the small amount of glycogen resynthesized during exercise is insufficient to maintain glycogen stores for more than a few workouts. ... Two studies have examined the phenomenon of post-workout glycogen resynthesis. One study using weight training with no carbohydrate given found a resynthesis rate of 1.9 mmol/kg/hour following resistance training with a total of 4 mmol/kg being resynthesized. As 40 mmol/kg of glycogen was depleted during the exercise, this small amount would not sustain exercise performance for long. However, in a second study, 22 mmol/kg was synthesized after training. The major difference between these studies was that subjects in the second study (9) ate a small carbohydrate-containing meal the morning of the training session whereas the subjects in the first did not. The elevation of blood glucose from the pre-workout meal allowed greater glycogen resynthesis to occur following training in the second study. This observation is the basis for the TKD. ... At 70% of maximum weight, both studies found a glycogen depletion rate of roughly 1.3 mmol/kg/repetition or 0.35 mmol/kg/second of work performed.</div></div>Approx 50-60% of the protein we eat will be converted into glycogen, which the brain can use.
When eating carbs post-workout focus on starch and/or simple carbs. If the carbs need to be processed by the liver it won't get into the muscle so fast.

Also, one point to consider. Every time you eat it fat will be stored into the fat stores (muscle and fat cells). Both protein and carbs cause an insulin rise that stores fat. If you eat only fat? Well, all fat you digest will be stored temporarily in the fat storage, even if there is no carbs in the food, because of the hormone Acylation Stimulating Protein, ASP (as Aaron put it: High fat raise ASP, blocks HSL, stimulates LPL and causes a net positive lipid balance into the fat cell. See this link for details.) It is not until that fat is needed for fuel it becomes released (the muscle does not release it - it uses it, as fat is the primary fuel).

That is why intermittent fasting (IF) is such a great fat burner, while sparing LBM (Dan Moore, our resident expert on fasting, makes his case on this. Follow this link). Short term fasting relies on fat being used as fuel (16 hours at most - nighttime fast and a.m. fast). Fasting make GH-levels rise (accelerates fat burning) and hunger is hardly noticeable most of the time. Break fast (breakfast) some hour(s) before hitting the gym with a light meal to get muscles primed for hard work. Then eat most of your food post workout to take advantage of the rised GH-levels (stimulates IGF-I release), the positive partitioning ratio, etc. IF seems to work great. Look at Martin Berkhan's www.leangains.com site to see the evidence.

* Edit: Total calories can be at maintenance with IF. You can burn fat during fast phase while gaining LBM during overfeeding phase. *
 
How much carbs are we talking about?

Assuming full glycogen depletion (for example following Lyle's UD2.0), somewhere between 12 and 16 g/kg (7-8 grams of carbs/lb) of lean body mass, according to Lyle to supercompensate (lasting a whole week's worth of glycogen!).

But if we are not fully depleted, we should not go beyond these numbers. And we must also distribute this amount over the course of the week. A lighter lifter with 70kg (154 lbs) of LBM will be eating 840-1120 grams of carbohydrates, at maximum, during the week. That is 120-160 grams of carbs a day (remember - to supercompensate!).

A more sane estimate would be somewhere around 100-120 grams a day (85%-100% of the lower end). If we are not totally depleted we cannot supercompensate to the max. If we workout every other day (standard HST), we eat our carbs then (200-240 grams), and on the off days we try to minimize our carb consumption.

If you are a 220 lbs (100kg) lifter, the maximum you would eat is 145-170 a day (also 85%-100% of the lower end), that is 290-340 grams post workout.

Simple formula for max carbs: 10-12 g/kg (or 4.55-5.45 g/lb) a week. And this may be a litte on the high side...

For a non-trainer, this formula does not hold. It assumes some amount of glycogen depletion from high intensity training (not HIT!). Check my previous post (the quote) for how much glycogen depletion each repetition causes. And this is for each muscle group. A full body workout is required for maximum depletion, or else the extra carbs are converted into fat (or something).
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">These types of diets (with additional protein skewing a true iso-caloric profile) are GREAT while adding mass, but not really what the bodybuilder needs to get rid of bodyfat. Same problem as listed above arises since carbs/insulin are still present.</div>

I have to agree that the ISO or Zone diet is great, but not for the bodybuilder who wants to lose fat. It is great for the bodybuilder who wants to bulk cleanly without increasing body fat percentage.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Let me take the time to address those people (trainers especially) that use weight training to burn additional calories. This is soooooo absolutely mis-guided.</div>

Weight lifting does burn calories. I'm not sure how else I would have shed the fat off this winter without losing much muscle at all if it wasn't for weight lifting, so I'm not sure what that statement is all about.
 
Actually, weight training does burn a good bunch of calories. However, using weight training with the intention to burn calories would be a bit too exhausting and inefficient. For instance, at my current weight, I could burn about 310 calories by vigorously lifting weights for one hour. Rope jumping burns the same amount in about 15 minutes, has less impact on the CNS, and recovery is much faster and easier.
 
Actually, I think it was adequately explained in the full paragraph:

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Let me take the time to address those people (trainers especially) that use weight training to burn additional calories. This is soooooo absolutely mis-guided. Lifting weights is an anaerobic activity. The energy pathways are mostly ATP and glycogen. Doing endless sets in the gym to burn more calories is a cruel joke played out on those people that subscribe to its practice. Weight training should be used to stimulate muscle growth....period.</div>

Yes, lifting does burn calories, but if you want to burn calories then you really shouldn't be looking to weight lifting. You should use weight lifting to stimulate protein synthesis and find other methods to create a calorie deficit - whether by eating less or by doing more cardio.

It is mostly a matter of efficiency. As X pointed out, you can burn far more calories simply by jumping rope for a while than you can doing circuits upon circuits of lifting. The amount of lifting you have to do to burn sufficient calories will also cause quite an impact on the CNS in comparison to using common forms of cardio to burn the same amount of calories. This can result in all sorts of undesirable effects such as lowered immune system, loss of strength, etc.

So yeah, weightlifting does burn calories but that is not really the best way to utilize this activity. Focusing on lifting heavy in order to stimulate protein synthesis will have more benefit for you overall than focusing on lifting to burn calories.
 
<div>
(nkl @ Apr. 01 2008,05:49)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">How much carbs are we talking about?

Assuming full glycogen depletion (for example following Lyle's UD2.0), somewhere between 12 and 16 g/kg (7-8 grams of carbs/lb) of lean body mass, according to Lyle to supercompensate (lasting a whole week's worth of glycogen!).

But if we are not fully depleted, we should not go beyond these numbers. And we must also distribute this amount over the course of the week. A lighter lifter with 70kg (154 lbs) of LBM will be eating 840-1120 grams of carbohydrates, at maximum, during the week. That is 120-160 grams of carbs a day (remember - to supercompensate!).

A more sane estimate would be somewhere around 100-120 grams a day (85%-100% of the lower end). If we are not totally depleted we cannot supercompensate to the max. If we workout every other day (standard HST), we eat our carbs then (200-240 grams), and on the off days we try to minimize our carb consumption.

If you are a 220 lbs (100kg) lifter, the maximum you would eat is 145-170 a day (also 85%-100% of the lower end), that is 290-340 grams post workout.

Simple formula for max carbs: 10-12 g/kg (or 4.55-5.45 g/lb) a week. And this may be a litte on the high side...

For a non-trainer, this formula does not hold. It assumes some amount of glycogen depletion from high intensity training (not HIT!). Check my previous post (the quote) for how much glycogen depletion each repetition causes. And this is for each muscle group. A full body workout is required for maximum depletion, or else the extra carbs are converted into fat (or something).</div>
So if my weight is 73 kg i need to eat 876 carbs a week. Which means 290 carbs post workout? (0-10 grams on the no carb days and 290 grams of carbs on the carb days). And how many carbs should i have on the carb up days?
Btw, dont you think that 65-100 grams of whey shake post workout is too much?
 
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