Study: 1 set vs 3

Discussion in 'General Training' started by Dood, May 17, 2005.

  1. nkl

    nkl Member

    It surely feels like that, TunnelRat...  [​IMG]

    Dan and Ron, this may be off the mark but doesn't a contraction at max tension make the MUs fire in fused tethany, and as ATP is needed to break the crossbridges, wouldn't the ATP turnover thus be a function of rate coding, as the bridges are linking and re-linking at a high rate?

    QP, interesting tie-in on the Olympic skater stuff.  [​IMG]
     
  2. Joe.Muscle

    Joe.Muscle Active Member

    NKL who is that in your avatar???
     
  3. QuantumPositron

    QuantumPositron New Member

    All I can say is that I really wish I had something to read that could explain this in a way that's faster than inference from abstracts.

    What is meant by "active" and "passive" tension?

    BTW Dan, I changed my MS forum email and now my account is invalid. I've been wanting to post some experiences I've had with MS.

    BTW Dan #2. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if there were multiple pathways to hypertrophy. And it wouldn't surprise me further if these pathways crossed. Interesting? Heck, it causes me frustration because after all of this pathway stuff is figured out we have to answer the question of which path is optimal and by how much.

    BTW Nkl: I liked the Heiden story. Its actually the story of every Olympic skater: Every one of them has huge thighs and they don't train with weights beyond an intermediate weightlifter. It was sort of hard to believe at first. I guess that's what psychologists call cognitive filtering: the mind explains away that which does not confirm its beliefs. Because of life events I am having to condense my workout to around 20 minutes. Really 15. How to add mass to thighs? Try sets of 20+ I suppose. The bodybuilder in me says "No way" but the scientist in me says "What the hell do you know anyhow?"
     
  4. nkl

    nkl Member

    Joe, my avatar is the Hulk! Although grey... It's a sculpture actually, not a painting.  [​IMG]
     
  5. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    QP - I'd always wondered about those skaters myself. You're probably right about the crossing of pathways, but I'd feel that there is a certain selectivism from the brain going on there as well; putting the most growth, or extra rationing of GH into the parts that are under extreme duress. This may explain why that Bulgarian wrestler grew from the 8-minute squat sets that I'm not gonna try...
    Overall, I'm with NWlifter on the MU recruitment hypothesis...it's fascinating (the parts I understand) and relevant. For Nkl, this would be the best type of study for that 20 minute workout, I'd think.
    Active and Passive - I thought it would be obvious, unless they DON'T mean dynamic vs. static (isometric) tension.

    Oh, and there is a problem with the MS site from some changes made in the server. I mentioned it and Dan's on it. This board is running like a slug lately too.
     
  6. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    <div>
    (quadancer @ Mar. 06 2008,12:38)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">QP - I'd always wondered about those skaters myself. You're probably right about the crossing of pathways, but I'd feel that there is a certain selectivism from the brain going on there as well; putting the most growth, or extra rationing of GH into the parts that are under extreme duress. This may explain why that Bulgarian wrestler grew from the 8-minute squat sets that I'm not gonna try...</div>
    That sounds like a load of fun!

    Legs seem to be able to handle a fair amount of work especially with conditioning over time. The amount of work those skaters' legs do in training is A LOT!

    One very simple application of sprint skating training, which could be applied to training legs (or any body part) with weights, would be to lift the weight as quickly and explosively as possible (controlled eccentric, explosive concentric), thereby increasing power generation (this has been discussed here before).

    When performing sets of squats with around 60/70% of your 1RM, really try to jump the load off the floor. Loads that you use during the 15s are ideally suited to this. Of course, as the load gets progressively heavier over the course of a cycle this gets harder and harder to do, until eventually it is all you can do to just get the load up.

    So I feel that another advantage to 15s is that you can use them for power training.

    <div>
    (quadancer @ Mar. 06 2008,12:38)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
    Oh, and there is a problem with the MS site from some changes made in the server. I mentioned it and Dan's on it. This board is running like a slug lately too.</div>
    I noticed that too. I tried to post but it never managed the crossing from old blighty.
     
  7. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    <div>
    (QuantumPositron @ Mar. 05 2008,22:59)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">All I can say is that I really wish I had something to read that could explain this in a way that's faster than inference from abstracts.

    What is meant by &quot;active&quot; and &quot;passive&quot; tension?

    BTW Dan, I changed my MS forum email and now my account is invalid.  I've been wanting to post some experiences I've had with MS.

    BTW Dan #2.  It wouldn't surprise me in the least if there were multiple pathways to hypertrophy.  And it wouldn't surprise me further if these pathways crossed.  Interesting?  Heck, it causes me frustration because after all of this pathway stuff is figured out we have to answer the question of which path is optimal and by how much.

    BTW Nkl:  I liked the Heiden story.  Its actually the story of every Olympic skater:  Every one of them has huge thighs and they don't train with weights beyond an intermediate weightlifter.  It was sort of hard to believe at first.  I guess that's what psychologists call cognitive filtering:  the mind explains away that which does not confirm its beliefs.  Because of life events I am having to condense my workout to around 20 minutes.  Really 15.  How to add mass to thighs?  Try sets of 20+ I suppose.  The bodybuilder in me says &quot;No way&quot; but the scientist in me says &quot;What the hell do you know anyhow?&quot;</div>
    passive tension - the tension acheived during stretch.

    active tension - the tension acheived during contraction

    My providers changed servers and I'm not sure what the heck the problem is.

    They've also changed my user information and I can't even log in to my account. I've emailed to have my account info resent and haven't gotten a response.
     
  8. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    <div>
    (nkl @ Mar. 05 2008,19:38)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Dan and Ron, this may be off the mark but doesn't a contraction at max tension make the MUs fire in fused tethany, and as ATP is needed to break the crossbridges, wouldn't the ATP turnover thus be a function of rate coding, as the bridges are linking and re-linking at a high rate?

    QP, interesting tie-in on the Olympic skater stuff.  [​IMG]</div>
    Yes and no. Of course more ATP is required but it's not that much and during spectra analysis the signals are generally very weak so they are averaged so unless the spikes are high enough to be included they aren't averaged. So yes there may be more ATP cycled but it wouldn't be seen.

    Secondly, these studies clampled force and since myosin ATPpase can account for up to 50% of ATP used the largest ATP use is still at the crossbridge in single isotonic contractions, once the level of force is reached.

    Add in repeated isometric contraction or isotonic and then the SR function adds in a lot more ATP turnover.
     
  9. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    <div>
    (QuantumPositron @ Mar. 05 2008,22:59)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">BTW Dan #2.  It wouldn't surprise me in the least if there were multiple pathways to hypertrophy.  And it wouldn't surprise me further if these pathways crossed.  Interesting?  Heck, it causes me frustration because after all of this pathway stuff is figured out we have to answer the question of which path is optimal and by how much.</div>
    There absolutely is and they cross/uncross/intigrate/seperate and do this long winding dance that is quite confusing.

    One constant to date though is &quot;mechanical stimulation&quot; invokes most all of them dependantly and/or independantly.

    An interesting study I ran across which really points this out is

    Cell Motil Cytoskeleton. 2003 May;55(1):61-72. Links

    Skeletal muscle myosin cross-bridge cycling is necessary for myofibrillogenesis.
    Ramachandran I, Terry M, Ferrari MB.

    Division of Molecular Biology and Biochemistry, School of Biological Sciences, University of Missouri, 5100 Rockhill Road, Kansas City, MO 64110, USA.

    A major stimulus affecting myofibrillogenesis in both embryonic and mature striated muscle is contractile activity. There are two major signals associated with contractile activity: a physiological signal, the transient increase in intracellular calcium, and a physical signal, the transient increase in tension production. However, dissociating these two signals to examine their relative contributions to myofibrillogenesis has proven difficult. In this study, we have used two different myosin inhibitors to determine the importance of myosin cross-bridge cycling in sarcomere assembly. We find that the small-molecule inhibitor 2,3-butanedione monoxime (BDM), which inhibits myosin ATPase, disrupts myofibrillogenesis in amphibian myocytes, consistent with results from avian studies. However, BDM is a weak myosin inhibitor and it is non-specific; concentrations that inhibit contraction and disrupt myofibrillogenesis also disrupt calcium signaling. Therefore, we also used the recently identified skeletal muscle myosin II inhibitor, N-benzyl-p-toluenesulphonamide (BTS), which has high affinity and specificity for skeletal muscle fast myosin. BTS inhibits contraction and results in myofibrillar disruption that phenocopies our results with BDM. However, BTS does not affect either spontaneous or induced calcium transients. Furthermore, BTS is reversible and does not significantly affect the expression levels of myosin or actin. Thus, our convergent results with BDM and BTS suggest that sarcomere assembly depends on active regulation of tension in the forming myofibril. Copyright 2003 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
     
  10. NWlifter

    NWlifter Active Member

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
    I agree that rate coding isn't tied to ATP turnover but recruitment is for the same reason you elaborate on. So occlusion heightens MU recruitment. More MUs actively forming crossbridges means more ATP turnover. </div>

    I was thinking in terms of ATP turnover per fiber, rather than total in the whole muscle. OK we agree on this [​IMG]
     
  11. QuantumPositron

    QuantumPositron New Member

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">This may explain why that Bulgarian wrestler grew from the 8-minute squat sets that I'm not gonna try...</div>

    When the Heiden article came out at T-nation people talked about Tom Platz doing squats for 10 minutes at a time. I am all for it and may join you in the intermediate future (my current priority is saving my shoulders)..

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">They've also changed my user information and I can't even log in to my account. I've emailed to have my account info resent and haven't gotten a response. </div>

    That's how it goes in IT. I have a few friends in the industry. Did you know its a violation of Federal law for programmers to unionize? Something about bringing society to a grinding halt...

    They can't be paid overtime either.



    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">One very simple application of sprint skating training, which could be applied to training legs (or any body part) with weights, would be to lift the weight as quickly and explosively as possible (controlled eccentric, explosive concentric), thereby increasing power generation (this has been discussed here before).

    When performing sets of squats with around 60/70% of your 1RM, really try to jump the load off the floor.</div>

    Westside Barbell has this down to an exact science. They use bands to decelerate the bar as you reach the top. They do it for sets of 2 - 3 reps with much rest in between sets. And its done specifically for neuromuscular training - to develop explosiveness - not hypertrophy. This practice is advocated in strength training studies as well.
     
  12. TunnelRat

    TunnelRat Active Member

    <div>
    (QuantumPositron @ Mar. 07 2008,00:23)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Did you know its a violation of Federal law for programmers to unionize? Something about bringing society to a grinding halt...

    They can't be paid overtime either.</div>
    Some guys just can't hack it...
     
  13. QuantumPositron

    QuantumPositron New Member

    Nkl,

    About those skaters with big legs and 100 rep squat routines, this writer at bodybuilding.com states on hyperplasia:

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The few studies that do support hyperplasia have shown it to be linked to longer duration type activity such as: middle distance running and higher volume resistance training.</div>

    I'm going to have a look through pubmed in a little bit but I thought I'd say something stimulating to continue this thread.

    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/shannon2.htm
     
  14. NWlifter

    NWlifter Active Member

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Some guys just can't hack it... </div>
    [​IMG]
     
  15. nkl

    nkl Member

    QP (and others who are interested),

    Charles Staley´s Escalating Density Training (EDT) is similar to what was described in the article you provided a link to (Cumulative Fatigue Training), and MS is similar in a way too. EDT seek to increase volume by performing 5 reps with a 10RM weight, if possible doing a superset with an antagonist exercise, then get back to do another set, superset, then another set... and so on for 15 minutes. Rest 5 minutes then change exercise and do another superset during 10 minutes. From workout to workout you only keep count on the total amount of reps during these time intervals.  If you have increased the number of reps by 20% add 5% weight.

    This is similar to the idea presented in Titan Training Serious Growth IV by Leo Costa jr. In one method he calls muscle rounds he uses 4 reps with a 10RM weight, rest 10 seconds, repeat for 6 rounds. Do for 4 sets. It was performed using a two-day split. He cycles this with pyramiding for strength and superset volume training, also using a two-day split (P upper+V lower day 1, P lower+V upper day 2).

    Early this year I thought of doing something different than HST for a cycle so I tweaked the above mentioned methods into sets of 7 min, 5 min, and 3 min with a goal of doing between 35-45, 25-35, 12-25 reps doing MS-style reps (no supersets). Because of time constraints I had to limit the workout to 9 excercises: 3 of which I did high volume-low load (7 min), 3 of which I did moderate volume-moderate load (5 min), and 3 of which I simply did strong range partials/isometrics or negatives (3 min). I cycled the exercises during the week so all muscle groups was hit with all ranges.

    I quickly got overtrained and had to do an early SD while tending a cold, besides I strained my forearms doing negatives (not enough time for adaptation). But that asides, the sensation of just counting reps until time was up was liberating. I didn't have to think of anything else but grinding out reps. I found that a pace of one rep approx. every 10 seconds was a good way to go to hit the target ranges (7*6=42; 5*6=30; 3*6=18). It was a fast paced way to complete your workout in 45 minutes plus time to move between exercises, and it surely felt high density! No time to catch your breath...  [​IMG]

    In hindsight, this is something I think would lead to an accelerated RBE so, while fun, I think it's not the perfect way to pack on size for long cycles. However, I think the method of working against the clock, counting reps, can be used in HST if you make sure you keep a steady load progression. Also, it might be a better way to balance TUT and load. Repetitions will become fewer as it takes longer time to move a heavier load. Total exercise time will remain the same.
     
  16. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    MiGawd, nkl, you'd kill me with that!
    What about this thing I'm trying; 5x5 with a medium weight, adding one rep to each set with the same weight every workout...until I can't progress reps any more, then going back to the 5x5 with a higher weight and coming up again.
    I'm thinking, &quot;hey, I'm doing volume, progression, and strength training all in one...&quot; which I'm hoping will result in gains at last. I'm just waffling on the diet, not sure which way to go first, but the workouts are intense and fun so far.
    So far. I am, however, only doing it 3-way: back, chest, and legs, two exersizes each to keep the volume down to a sane level for me. And I split it when I don't feel the whole body making the day.
     
  17. nkl

    nkl Member

    QuantumPositron, how is it going with your Rafeei's dissertation protocol experiment? There has been a month since you mentioned it and you were taking meansurements...
     
  18. QuantumPositron

    QuantumPositron New Member

    Life happened. As I mentioned in another thread (see: &quot;Tired of my gym&quot;) I moved to another region of my hometown. As is turns out, the gym I am a member of wants $50 for me to change gyms, and they want to increase my monthly payments by $10 as well. On top of all that, this is a downtown area gym w/ limited free weights. There's no squat rack, no leg press, and no pulley machines. Its mostly a cardio room with a machine circuit and a two-lane pool. Its not worth it, and I'm tired of being in bed with a Machiavellian gym (they stole their business concept from a gym magnate on the West coast). Once I get away from these people I'll sign up with the local Y, which, while not having stellar free weights has enough for me to work with.

    As for the protocol, I can tell you that if you try it while doing other lifts that involve arm flexion like any kind of row or pulldown, you will likely need to reduce the number of sets you use in the protocol. I learned this the hard way: I developed overtraining syndrome 3 hrs after my third workout with Rafeei. I became immediately depressed, my biceps, especially near the insertion points, hurt in suspicious ways, I lost all interest in my next workout, and I began to develop a sore throat. On top of that, I felt completely fried. I even started feeling a kind of nervousness like I was shaking or something. Have you ever taken too much Magnesium? Sort of like that.

    So I rested over the weekend, skipped Monday, and came back Wednesday dropping the sets from 5 to 4, and then, reluctantly, from 4 to 3 on the following Friday. The following week I was busy with moving.

    Results:

    During my pre-Rafeei measurements my tape measure actually broke! So I made a note to get one in the future and didn't think much of it because it would be a 3-4 weeks before I intended on measuring again. The response from Rafeei was noticeable on the get go. The day after my first workout my biceps were undeniably harder. After my second workout my polo T-shirt sleeves were beginning to feel tight. I remember pulling them up in a book store because it kept distracting me while I was trying to read. I wasn't used to the feeling. The tape measure was still saying the same thing, but without the buckle on the tape I wasn't sure if I was holding it tight enough or what. That sort of perplexed me, but I figured it was only the 2nd workout. Rome wasn't built in a day.

    I didn't do any sort of strength test to see if I was getting stronger. But the curls were getting easier and I was getting better at keeping strict form and moving at the right cadence.

    So, I'm sorry to say I don't have any solid results. Due to life and exploitative gym contracts I've had to lay off. I can give the following points to anyone who wants to follow in my footsteps:

    1. If you are doing other biceps-involved lifts, and it feels like its too much, do one or more of the following: Drop the volume or intensity of these lifts, drop them altogether, or decrease the number of Rafeei sets. Studies show that 4-5 sets provide the best hypertrophy, but only by about 0.02 % (not kidding, that's the real number) better than 3 sets. If you think about it, 3 sets of 10 reps for 2 seconds/rep is exactly 60 seconds of TUT. Granted Rafeei is an odd protocol and maybe the 5 sets are better than 3, but if you can't do five, then you can't do five.

    2. Get your set up solid. Know exactly how you're going to get rid of the weight while completely removing the eccentric component. For me, it was doing seated dumbbell curls. After the top of the concentric portion I would quickly lean forward while pressing the dumbbells out. Basically pressing them into the floor. To keep cadence I used a 10 dollar Casio digital watch with seconds on it.

    3. Shake your arms (or whatever you're doing) for those 2 minute rest intervals. You've got two minutes. Enough time to take a swig, walk about, etc.

    4. Focus focus focus. The full protocol takes exactly 14 minutes to complete. (2 second reps x 5 seconds rest/rep x 10 reps x 5 sets + 2 minutes rest/set x 4 rest periods + human error).

    5. Because of the time involved (14 minutes), and maybe even because of the intensity, its not viable to do your entire workout Rafeei style. Quite simply, you would die. It may be possible however, to do one to three compound lifts for 3 sets, Rafeei style, per workout. That's just from a time-management POV though. Because of the CNS drain, you'll still die.

    6. Don't go for the full 5 sets the first time. 90% RM for 50 reps is hard on everything, including tendons. It is not a good feeling. If I do this again I am starting at 2 sets and ramping up to 5 (assuming I want to do 5).

    As an aside, I found an old myo-tape while moving. To correct bad posture I started doing lifts and stretches out of the Neanderthal No more series on T-nation. So I've been doing chins and bent over rows. Also did weighted dips MS style. After a week I added 1/2 inch to both arms. That's returning gains though. My current thinking with arms is first follow Poliquin's edict that large arms require a larger Ponderal Index. That's another way of saying that you need to get big all over. For me it was a mentality shift in programming: total body mass first, then add things for a lagging part. I knew this approach for a while, but I didn't really implement it. The Rafeei protocol is still valid in my book. I will try it again sometime in the future.

    Presently my reading is going in the direction of specific phenomena, and not rep-set manipulations. Take for instance, the Bilateral Deficit.
     
  19. nkl

    nkl Member

    QP: Interesting (the bilateral deficit as well). The Rafeei's dissertation protocol seems to be a strange one indeed, eccentrics only and high volume at such high RM... The issue is truly to be able to work the entire body, not just one muscle group. Perhaps if there is some planned work-on-your-weakness-weeks that can be used, perhaps before a SD. I hope the gym-thing gets resolved smoothly for you.

    Quad: Nice idea to combine progression of volume and load in a zig-zag manner. It would show the strength progress nicely. But does it add muscle? TUT increases as volume increases so I don't see why it should not work. Diet-wise IF seem to be beneficial for keeping bf% down and still gain lbm. I'm becoming more convinced as times goes by. But that is for the diet section of the forum...
     
  20. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    I'm still trying but in a caloric deficit, and lost so much strength it screws up the progression. I'll have to start it over when I get to bulking again. For now, it's just lift lowreps heavy as I can while losing fat and stuff.
    My thinking is about workload and change, two things I believe in. I was needing a change, and the workload is there, increasing as you go both in weight and sets. I see no downside to this; it's just a different way of progressing. I think all the muscle sees is work and more work. Then the work gets heavier.
    As for IF, I doubt if I have what it takes to fast for ANY length of time...I likes ta EET!
     

Share This Page