Swolecat - Bryan, would appreciate your input!

T

Tom Treutlein

New Member
Has anyone ever heard of him or tried his programs?

I can never seem to nail down a solid diet. I'm always skeptical of various things. I know some things SC advocates are:

1) Training & Non-training meal plans
2) Separating carbs & fats (despite controversey, he says it works)
3) Eating for activity only - i.e., no carbs if you're not using carbs (no training, no cardio = no carbs)
4) A weekly cheat day to keep thyroid going (I think this only applies to dieting down, not bulking) and to keep one sane

I'm really interested in what you have to say about this Bryan. Anyone else, as well! Do you agree with any of the above? If so, which ones and why? I really need to deceipher this issue!
 
Since I love injecting my opinion I guess I'll do it here also. If you don't mind Tom?

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]1) Training & Non-training meal plans
2) Separating carbs & fats (despite controversey, he says it works)
3) Eating for activity only - i.e., no carbs if you're not using carbs (no training, no cardio = no carbs)
Click to expand...
Aaron_F and I had a discussion on DNL a while back and naturally since I am not one to take anyone's word on anything (no offense Aaron) I did some more digging, and guess what, he was right DUH, DNL does happen but, not as much as it is lead up to believe there was one study in particular that shows that even when overfeeding carbohydrates DNL did not change anymore than not overfeeding carbohydrates or not to any appreciable extent
anyway, and this was in obese people with a control of lean people. But I do still believe in keeping carbs lower than most, I especially do during the high rep phases and then boost them up during the heavy work where I need the energy, yes I know this is @$$-backwards from what Bryan says but it works for me. :D

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]4) A weekly cheat day to keep thyroid going (I think this only applies to dieting down, not bulking) and to keep one sane
Click to expand...
Sanity yes, leptigen maybe, metabolism maybe (with a lean more towards yes) but not with one day it seems that in order to get the metabolism kicked back in after a hypoenergenic diet takes a couple days of increased feeding, so I am not sure on this one. When I tried this in my last cutting cycle (last cycle) I went with a 5 day hypo and two day hyperenergenic diet, but I kept it clean, except for the pizza (yum, Yum) and that tiny piece of cake and oh yeah that cookie anyway, I was able to lose about a 2 to 4% in body fat and could begin to see my upper abs again. So I accomplished my goal and now it's time to grow again for a couple three cycles then I'll cut again.
 
Sorry Tom I meant to actually post the study I was refering to but forgot, so here ya go

Effect of carbohydrate overfeeding on whole body macronutrient metabolism and expression of lipogenic enzymes in adipose tissue of lean and overweight humans.

Minehira K, Vega N, Vidal H, Acheson K, Tappy L.

Department of Physiology, University of Lausanne, 1005 Lausanne, Switzerland.

OBJECTIVE: Lipids stored in adipose tissue can originate from dietary lipids or from de novo lipogenesis (DNL) from carbohydrates. Whether DNL is abnormal in adipose tissue of overweight individuals remains unknown. The present study was undertaken to assess the effect of carbohydrate overfeeding on glucose-induced whole body DNL and adipose tissue lipogenic gene expression in lean and overweight humans. DESIGN: Prospective, cross-over study. SUBJECTS AND METHODS: A total of 11 lean (five male, six female, mean BMI 21.0+/-0.5 kg/m(2)) and eight overweight (four males, four females, mean BMI 30.1+/-0.6 kg/m(2)) volunteers were studied on two occasions. On one occasion, they received an isoenergetic diet containing 50% carbohydrate for 4 days prior to testing; on the other, they received a hyperenergetic diet (175% energy requirements) containing 71% carbohydrates. After each period of 4 days of controlled diet, they were studied over 6 h after having received 3.25 g glucose/kg fat free mass. Whole body glucose oxidation and net DNL were monitored by means of indirect calorimetry. An adipose tissue biopsy was obtained at the end of this 6-h period and the levels of SREBP-1c, acetyl CoA carboxylase, and fatty acid synthase mRNA were measured by real-time PCR. RESULTS: After isocaloric feeding, whole body net DNL amounted to 35+/-9 mg/kg fat free mass/5 h in lean subjects and to 49+/-3 mg/kg fat free mass/5 h in overweight subjects over the 5 h following glucose ingestion. These figures increased (P<0.001) to 156+/-21 mg/kg fat free mass/5 h in lean and 64+/-11 mg/kg fat free mass/5 h (P<0.05 vs lean) in overweight subjects after carbohydrate overfeeding. Whole body DNL after overfeeding was lower (P<0.001) and glycogen synthesis was higher (P<0.001) in overweight than in normal subjects. Adipose tissue SREBP-1c mRNA increased by 25% in overweight and by 43% in lean subjects (P<0.05) after carbohydrate overfeeding, whereas fatty acid synthase mRNA increased by 66 and 84% (P<0.05). CONCLUSION: Whole body net DNL is not increased during carbohydrate overfeeding in overweight individuals. Stimulation of adipose lipogenic enzymes is also not higher in overweight subjects. Carbohydrate overfeeding does not stimulate whole body net DNL nor expression of lipogenic enzymes in adipose tissue to a larger extent in overweight than lean subjects.
 
So your opinion is that it doesn't really matter whether or not you have two meal plans, eat carbs even if you're inactive, and seperate carbs and fats?

And as for a cheat day, not very useful unless you're going to make it extended for 48-72 hours?
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Tom Treutlein @ Nov. 05 2004,8:15)]So your opinion is that it doesn't really matter whether or not you have two meal plans, eat carbs even if you're inactive, and seperate carbs and fats?
And as for a cheat day, not very useful unless you're going to make it extended for 48-72 hours?
Click to expand...
My opinion is exactly that. But I must add I do not eat many refined carbs at all, the pizza and other goodies I mentioned was the first time in a very long time that I endulged. Probably 6 mos to a year. I do eat whole grains, veggies and fruit, a butt load of those, especially cruciferous veggies, I do try and eat what I call a rainbow every day. A different colored veggie and fruit/Berry every meal. Don't truly know if it is useful but, hey variety is the spice of life :).

If your cheat day is for metabolic effect, then yes it seems to take more than one day to get it kicked back in. If it is for sanity, then one cheat day is fine.

Again Aaron realy really knows his stuff about nutrition and metabolism, hopefully he'll comment as well. Cliner9ner also has a good grasp perhaps he'll be able to add or correct me if I'm off base.
 
wow.gif
3-->
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Sonny @ Nov. 06 2004,7
wow.gif
3)]Eat Like a Viking ………
EAT MORE BEEF …………
From Mr. Chicken
Click to expand...
Yeah, eat like a viking so you can look like a viking

Now that's my idea of fitness
blush.gif
 
No refined carbs here. 45-50% total calories coming from oats (270g or so) a day. Another 48 grams of sugar carbs from milk, but that's lactose so it's not as bad as actual table sugar.

So 50% cals from carbs a day will continue to do me fine. I'll just try and do something relatively active every day anyway, just in case.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (dkm1987 @ Nov. 06 2004,11:00)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Sonny @ Nov. 06 2004,7
wow.gif
)]Eat Like a Viking ………
EAT MORE BEEF …………
From Mr. Chicken
Click to expand...
Yeah, eat like a viking so you can look like a viking
Now that's my idea of fitness <!--emo&amp;
blush.gif
Click to expand...
hahahahh
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Tom Treutlein @ Nov. 06 2004,2:00)]Has anyone ever heard of him or tried his programs?
I can never seem to nail down a solid diet. I'm always skeptical of various things. I know some things SC advocates are:
1) Training &amp; Non-training meal plans
2) Separating carbs &amp; fats (despite controversey, he says it works)
Click to expand...
Of course it works, but thats not saying it works any better than not seperating things.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]3) Eating for activity only - i.e., no carbs if you're not using carbs (no training, no cardio = no carbs)
Click to expand...
Thats basically saying that your body oxidises no carbs at all when 'inactive' which is quite a fib. &gt;100g/day is required to be at maintenance even when inactive.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]4) A weekly cheat day to keep thyroid going (I think this only applies to dieting down, not bulking) and to keep one sane
Click to expand...
Doesnt really work unfortunately (Well it does keep you sane) while there is a mild rise in leptin and the associated hormones around it, a refeed does not raise thryoid for very long, or at least not long enough to have a real effect on a diet.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Again Aaron realy really knows his stuff about nutrition and metabolism, hopefully he'll comment as well
Click to expand...
thats why I get paid the big dollars... well, thats why I get paid some money.
However I am not in very often for the next few weeks (or the previous few actually) as I am shifting to a new city to take up a new position (associate research scientist as a matter of fact) and it will take up a whole heap more time than I was used to.
Once everything is settled down, all should be good.
 
It shouldn't matter that I'm ingesting 270g of carbs roughly, even on off days, right?

I'll save a cheat meal or two for Friday or Saturday's when I hang out with some friends. I'll try to avoid them, though, if I can.

Aaron, good luck with the move and all.

Thanks for the replies, everyone.
 
Tom,

For what it's worth, I used the same structure for my last show in '92. It was the first time I had used the diet, and it was recommended to me by a Mr. Olympia competitor. I was able to eat more calories than ever before, and never got hungry, what with eight meals per day. The refeed day was strange and difficult, with the recommendation being to try and consume 10,000 calories. Always finished the day with ice cream. I lost about one pound per week, never lost strength in the gym, and only used 20 minutes of treadmill walking for fat burning. Hydrostatic and caliper bf% calculations had me going in at 196lbs with 8%bf. It was actually fun.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (dkm1987 @ Nov. 06 2004,10:24)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Tom Treutlein @ Nov. 05 2004,8:15)]So your opinion is that it doesn't really matter whether or not you have two meal plans, eat carbs even if you're inactive, and seperate carbs and fats?
And as for a cheat day, not very useful unless you're going to make it extended for 48-72 hours?
Click to expand...
My opinion is exactly that. But I must add I do not eat many refined carbs at all, the pizza and other goodies I mentioned was the first time in a very long time that I endulged. Probably 6 mos to a year. I do eat whole grains, veggies and fruit, a butt load of those, especially cruciferous veggies, I do try and eat what I call a rainbow every day. A different colored veggie and fruit/Berry every meal. Don't truly know if it is useful but, hey variety is the spice of life :).
If your cheat day is for metabolic effect, then yes it seems to take more than one day to get it kicked back in. If it is for sanity, then one cheat day is fine.
Again Aaron realy really knows his stuff about nutrition and metabolism, hopefully he'll comment as well. Cliner9ner also has a good grasp perhaps he'll be able to add or correct me if I'm off base.
Click to expand...
I agree with dkm. Refeeds take longer to have a positive effect on things like leptin and need to be more frequent as one becomes leaner. This is why silly things like carb cycling do not work as they are outlined. A large carb-based meal will do diddly poo in the grand scheme of hormonal responses to dieting. A refeed needs to be 36 hours bare minimum with 48-72 being more ideal. This has to be realized as well that refeed schemes just stall the inevitable of metabolic slowdown, hunger, grouchiness, etc. associated with lower leptin levels. I am also pro variety of fruits and veges (rainbow as you say :) ) Most of the crap that gets published about phytos etc. are in a variety of F and V's and isolation just doesn't get it as there are a million other substances interacting with the isolated phyto.
 
&quot;Most of the crap that gets published about phytos etc. are in a variety of F and V's and isolation just doesn't get it as there are a million other substances interacting with the isolated phyto.&quot;

Sorry, I just woke up and didn't grasp that. What are you trying to say?
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Tom Treutlein @ Nov. 09 2004,12:28)]Sorry, I just woke up and didn't grasp that. What are you trying to say?
Click to expand...
To be sure to get all the phytonutrients you need eat plenty of Fruit and Veggies :D
 
Awesome. Whey for my protein, oats for my carbs, saff, flax and fish oils for my fats. Then I'll just toss in veggies and fruits for my phytos.

This is boss.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Tom Treutlein @ Nov. 09 2004,3:41)]Awesome. Whey for my protein, oats for my carbs, saff, flax and fish oils for my fats. Then I'll just toss in veggies and fruits for my phytos.
This is boss.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure I'd call that &quot;awesome&quot;...
 
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