Value of Squatting

B

BoSox

New Member
Okay this isn't really important
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But I was explaining to a leg presser today the importance of squatting. And I wasn't too successful. Hypertrophy-wise, is there any benefit to squatting that can't be achieved with the combination of leg-pressing, SLDL's and regular deads? I know squats are one of those exercises that everyone feels like they have to do, and I don't mind them, but I drew a blank. Help me out here (or just explain that there isn't much difference.

Personally, I prefer deadlifting, especially as a back builder, so if it would be possible to get the same results leg-wise from leg-pressing instead of squatting, I'd be willing to think about it for the sake of my lower back.
 
I don't think there is much to gain from squatting versus leg pressing if you're not an athlete or powerlifter. I've done it both ways before and being that I'm just a recreational lifter find that I much prefer leg pressing. The only time I do squats is when I don't have access to a leg press machine.
 
One thing to consider is the potential for lower back problems from heavy leg pressing. I tweaked my back pretty badly on a leg press machine. I think the leg press can put a lot of shearing stress on the lower back, especially the machines with a fairly upright seating position. I believe Blade posted something about this long ago, but I can't find it.
 
interesting. Although I can't say squatting is a walk in the park for the lower back either. Anyone else?
 
For those with bad backs, I have often seen leg presses be advised for a substitute. Seems to me that squatting would put more stress on the back, lower back in particular, due to the compression of the spine....
 
Okay, how about this then:

Should a newbie to lifting do squats?

A guy I know is arguing with me, saying that they should not, due to the potential for injury.

I am insisting that there is a potential for injury in any weight lifting you do, and as long as the newbie is sane and doesn't try to use more weight than he/she is capable of (as many guys are prone to do) then he/she should be able to keep proper form and avoid injury.

Who is correct? If he is, why would you not want a newbie to use something like squats or deadlifts? I see no reason to make them train with weights for a year before they can use either one.
 
Most leg press machines, where the feet and legs are in a fixed position, can cause lower back problems. I can't go deep with them without wincing.

However, leg press machines (such as the Nautilus) where your body is fixed but your feets are moving are pretty safe. And I can actually much deeper than I would with squats.

Whatever you use, work on flexing your belly into the spine while "turning around." This will protect your lower back with these movements.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Should a newbie to lifting do squats?
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Only if he has somebody watching his form. Honestly, most of us need occasional supervision in order to keep the form excellent as you go heavier and heavier. It's a rather high maintenance movement.

cheers,
Jules
 
Great topic I have been wanting to talk about this for some time.

Lower back health - I keep hearing people talk about how everyone hurts their lower back and its a matter of time before i hurt mine (I like to try and not let that under my skin). I currently believe that by doing movement like the deadlift and squat that you will stregthen the back and prevent injury (with good form of corse) in the future. Is this correct or am i miss guided?:confused: Vicious can you please elaberate on the flexing of the stomach, is this just the normal abb muscles or more??? I think that I flex those muscles some what but i might be able to do more is this a problem? I usually just try and keep my shoulders pulled back and a straight back for deadlifts as my main concern though.

Now as far as my squating problem. It used to be my favorite lift but now that my gym doesnt have a real squat rack only a smith machine i dont do it (ocationally use the smith). I tried to leg press but i max it out too easy lol i was kicked out once for having my friends stand on the weights and putting DB and BB weights on it. I asked nicely for a squat rack but they dont care. Is there really a big problem with squating regularly with the smith machine??? I interchange my leg workouts now between that and lunges I dont know what else to do.
 
I personally don't like the Smith squat very much because it limits your plane of movement. You actually squat in an arc, not a straight line. The Nautilus leg press recognizes that, and so its motion feels more natural.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Vicious can you please elaberate on the flexing of the stomach, is this just the normal abb muscles or more???
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They're the transversus(sp?) abdominal muscles. They do what squats belts do, provide a girdle that prevents your lower back from throwing out and the like. If you develop this muscle, you'll also have a small, tighter waistline and be able to do Arnold's "where did my internal organs go?" trick.

Most trainees don't train this area. And, well, we should. First, it's what really protects your lower back when you turn direction at the deep end of the dead and squat. Second, when you stimulate that area, it also automatically contracts your abdominal wall while you're performing the movement. When experts mention that heavy row movements work the abdominal area, it's because you instinctively recruit that region to protect your back.

It's not hard to stimulate. Just flex your belly button into your spine while you're doing your big movements. I find it a bit, well, distracting, so I only consciously do this during the 5s and maybe the last few reps of 10s.

If you want to isolate this area, learn how to do "stomach vacuums."

cheers,
Jules
 
I did some investigating and it seems that if you go too low on a leg press machine your sacrum, (http://sprojects.mmi.mcgill.ca/postabdwall/image-vertebrae2a-sacrum.jpg)
can come off the pad and cause problems:
"NEVER bring your legs so far back that your tail bone (sacrum) or lower back rises off the back of the seat. This puts unnecessary excessive pressure on your lower back and is a prescription for injury. Some people are very flexible in the hip area, women particularly. In fact, some are so limber that they can actually bring their knees in line with their ears but their sacrum is always off the back pad, even if they don't know it. This will not make leg presses any more productive although it will make them more dangerous."
http://www.dolfzine.com/page611.htm
I'm pretty flexible and I always thought I should go as deep as possible, which is probably why I had a problem on the leg press.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (vicious @ April 13 2005,1:16)]If you want to isolate this area, learn how to do "stomach vacuums."
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Frank Zane's approach to learning Vacuums
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Three-time Mr. Olympia Frank Zane has these tips for creating a vacuum that will lead to a small waistline:
* "Lying on the floor, exhale completely, forcing all the air out of the lungs/ diaphragm with your abdominal muscles. Next, instead of inhaling, suck in your gut, pulling it in so far that you can imagine your abs actually touching your spine. Since there's no air in your lungs, you should be able to suck your stomach way in, which will contract your transversus abdominis."
* "Practice holding this vacuum for longer and longer periods of time. Eventually, your waist will get smaller, providing you don't stuff yourself at meals and bloat with massive amounts of liquids between meals."
* "The idea is to keep the waistline tight, under control. Eat smaller meals, and don't ingest as much food at each feeding, which will prevent unwanted stomach distention."
* "Using this technique, I find myself sipping water more often throughout the day instead of bloating my gut with big meals and large gulps of beverages."
* "If you want to develop endurance--that is, the ability to maintain a vacuum for longer periods of time--as well as a muscular waistline, it will all come down to breath control."
* "After you have achieved a sense of control in the lying position, next practice the standing position. Initially, it will be easier to achieve the vacuum if you press your palms against your upper thighs after exhaling and sucking in your gut."
* "The final step in doing the ultimate vacuum is to start practicing with your hands behind your neck, which is what T used to do at competitions to good effect. This particular vacuum ain't easy, but keep at it."
Click to expand...
fz020.jpg
 
Though some don't like Smith machine for squatting, after I injured my back on the leg press free squatting wasn't an option, so I tried the Smith machine. I found that I was able to walk my feet out in front of me more, leaning back against the bar and keeping my back more vertical, which didn't hurt. So I guess it all depends on your situation.
 
I've also seen recommendations to do the exact opposite of the vacuum. Basically you tighten your stomach as if you were about to be punched, and tighten your glutes as well, kind of like straining on the toilet, for want of a better analogy. Similar to what pilots do when doing high G maneuvers to keep from passing out. This is supposed to stabilize your trunk while doing squats.
 
I also squat in a Smith Machine, even though I know that the plane of motion is not correct.
That brings about a question: Is the addage that your knees are not supposed to extend past the ends of your feet true? If so, why is that? The angle between your upper and lower leg could be far less doing deep squats, so I cannot see how that would be the factor. Does it have something to do with achilles flexibility because you are dorsiflexing (is that right?) your ankle so much?
That is primarily why I do squats in a Smith, because I cannot squat to parallel without that happening in a rack.
 
Here's what I was talking about regarding tightening your midsection:
"Now that your upper back is tight you'll need to tighten your midsection. First, expand your abdomen as much as possible. When you pull air into your body it should be into the diaphragm, not the chest. Expand you belly and push it out against your belt. This will stabilize and support the lower back and not elongate the spine. If you're having a hard time trying to figure this out, then wear your weight belt one notch loose and push into it with your belly so it becomes tight.

Pushing your belly out goes against what many believe because they feel training this way will cause injuries to the lower back. After 30 years of box squatting Westside has had 23 lifters squat over 800 pounds, six over 900 pounds and one over a grand. Not one of these lifters or any of the others has had lower back problems. " Dave Tate
http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=body_120squat
 
Dood that is exactly how I do my smith machine squats with the feet out so I can go parallel. It really does feel as "natural" or safe as you can get on the smith. So doing something like that shouldnt have any long term negative effects it seems.

As far as vacuums while I deadlift I dont. Now mind you I have no problem performing a vacuum in any position even though it is somewhat difficult. The hardest thing seems to be the breathing.

When I deadlift I start in this order. 1 set up hands in good position. 2 set feet and straighten back with shoulders pulled back. 3 tighten up the stomach a little as if im going to take a light punch. 4 lift lower and repeat. I only flex the abs the same way you would if you wanted them to look more visible or were going to take a punch. I flex them just enough that I feel the front is slightly secure and my back is still in good position by doing this the vacuum muscles may still be activated a bit?? or not? I do not stick out my gut although flexing them does push them out a bit. Is the correct or should I do the vacuums? Would flexing the pelvic floor muscles during these lifts be beneficial too?
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cheers to a long, strong, and healthy deadlifting/squating career :)
 
I'm a Big believer in Squatting, I believe that just that fact that your standing under a weight your whole body is taxed, thus inducing more overall growth than leg pressing. I think the key though is good form and breathing

I know guys who refuse to Squat, make all kind of claims that it's bad for your back and try a salespitch on me when I tell them I full squat right down, right up.

now alot of times these guys are right in their claims that a "squat" is bad b/c the form they know that holds for a "squat" is more often than not bad form.

2 months ago I had a girl I know who does Olympic lifts and competes at the national Power lifting tourneys teach me how to squat and Bam! now I love squatting more than any other exercise

it's amazing that after years of squatting I only now really "know" how to Squat

there are alot of good sites on squating, but I think the best way to lean is to let someone who is experienced and used to hoisting HEAVY weights on their backs work with you to find your form
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (vicious @ April 12 2005,9:13)]It's a rather high maintenance movement.
cheers,
Jules
Click to expand...
I think Jules basically summed up my entire response with this statement
 
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