Very good post workout myth article

R

Razien99

New Member
This may have been brought up before, but this is a good article on post workout nutrition myths:

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=659666

These are the myths:

"1. Replenishing Glycogen Needs to be a Focus of PWO."

"2. Pre workout Nutrition will divert blood flow away from muscles during the workout."

"3. The post workout meal is the most important meal of the day."

"4. There’s a one-hour window of opportunity for protein synthesis following a workout."

"5. Consuming the drink immediately following the workout will elicit the greatest protein synthesis."

"6. The best meal to consume following a post workout meal is a good SOLID meal."

"7. Insulin sensitivity is enhanced for an hour following a resistance training bout."

"8. Whey is a "fast" protein, ideal for post workout."

"9. Using antioxidants post workout enhances recovery."

"10. Aspirin and ibuprofen are good anti-inflammatories for muscle recovery."

See what u think.
 
I dont think we have discussed it here, but i Have at Lyle McDonalds forum.

Its funny that he goes out of his way to say fast isnt required, but then promotes biotest's whey hydrolysate as the best...

a lot of points he is specifically extrapolating from different research and extrapolating the hell outta it.
 
Hm thats something i was thinking. He claims that taking the post workout drink straight away results in less protein synthesis than taking it one an hour later..but wouldnt that depend on the absorption rate of the protein ? I mean wouldnt taking the whey protein straight away, have a similar effect to having whey hydrolysates 20 minutes later? I dont know the exact absorption rates so im probably off...just tryna get across an idea.

Then he also tries to wipe out the idea of this "window of opportunity" which i have a hard time accepting after having read the book nutrient timing which spends a lot of time explaining the different windows & how to optimize your nutrition inside them over the 24 hour period with seemingly far more research to back up what it was saying.
 
"FAQ: If there is a 24-hour post workout window, why do we care about consuming multiple drinks?

A: The multiple drink method is still the best way to maximize our anabolic response following training. We take advantage of this "window" by spiking our blood amino acid level as often as we can.

FAQ: If there is a 24-hour post workout window, why do we care about fast or intermediate speed proteins?

A: The multiple drink method can only be used when fast proteins or amino acids are consumed. It just doesn’t work with intermediate speed proteins."

Just read this part on it. If the goal is to spike your blood amino acid level as much as possible..why only have 2 drinks if it lasts for 24 hours.. hmmmm

I still think its a good article in general, just dont get how hes reached some of the conclusions he has based on what hes saying.
 
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(Razien99 @ Mar. 12 2006,21:58)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Hm thats something i was thinking. He claims that taking the post workout drink straight away results in less protein synthesis than taking it one an hour later..</div>
Hes basing that off two seperate pieces of research. Within that concept not hte best way of doing things.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">but wouldnt that depend on the absorption rate of the protein ?</div> not within the researh he is looking at but slightly
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I mean wouldnt taking the whey protein straight away, have a similar effect to having whey hydrolysates 20 minutes later? I dont know the exact absorption rates so im probably off...just tryna get across an idea.</div>
THere is little (to none...) evidence ot support his concept of whey hydrolysate being a 'faster' protein than whey isolate

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Then he also tries to wipe out the idea of this &quot;window of opportunity&quot; which i have a hard time accepting after having read the book nutrient timing which spends a lot of time explaining the different windows &amp; how to optimize your nutrition inside them over the 24 hour period with seemingly far more research to back up what it was saying.</div>When your fasted, there definately is a window of opportunity, but we dont have enough data to really show what is happening in the fed state. Even John Ivy does not have enough informaiton to draw a complete story out of it.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
I still think its a good article in general, just dont get how hes reached some of the conclusions he has based on what hes saying.</div> thats becuase he is trying to put up science to support a conclusion that also has to comply with the use of the magazines supplement of choice, in this case, a hydrolysate.
 
I don't see how it could make a huge difference. Most people take a pre-workout shake anyway. Do you really think that shake is going to be completely digested by the time you finish your workout? I doubt it. Not to mention that there is sure to be food in your stomach from earlier meals as well, unless you are working out first thing in the morning. I really don't think if I eat a meal at 5pm and workout at 7pm that there will be nothing in my stomach.
 
Im checking out #6. The best meal to consume following a post workout meal is a good SOLID meal.&quot;

And the research that they quote for it is:

4. Borsheim E, Tipton KD, Wolf SE, Wolfe RR. Essential amino acids and muscle protein recovery from resistance exercise. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2002 Oct;283(4):E648-57.

But reading it on these:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez....bstract
&amp;
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/283/4/E648

I cant find it mentioning any significant difference ? Though i gotta say i dont understand about half of what its saying...maybe im just missing it.

hmmm
 
Wait i gotta clear that up. I was looking for a difference in response between the drinks because they claim ull get a bigger response from the 2nd drink compared to the first post workout.

So both drinks have a similar effect on stimulating net muscle protein balance ?

Why should we only have 2 drinks post workout then if supposedly the window lasts for 24 hours &amp; as they claim..your breakfast meal is just as significant as the one post workout &amp; you wanna spike your blood amino acid level as much as possible...

Something to do with it being dangerous in terms of building up insulin resistance ?
 
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(Razien99 @ Mar. 14 2006,22:02)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Im checking out #6. The best meal to consume following a post workout meal is a good SOLID meal.&quot;

I cant find it mentioning any significant difference ? Though i gotta say i dont understand about half of what its saying...maybe im just missing it.

hmmm</div>
He cant use a study that doesnt look at food vs drink intake to support his claim that a drink is better.
 
I appologise for the slight tangent...i wish to play devils advocate for a minute.

In terms of optimal gut health (and general health and mental well being for that matter), arent we all supposed to eat our whole grains, fruits, fibrous veg, lean meats, oily fish, seeds and nuts while avoiding all processed and highly refined foods as much as possible?

If that is the case, then downing the most processed and refined foods of all, namely whey and dextrose should be considered as an 'anti-health act' and avoided at all times. Even pre or post workout.

If i am eating my 6 highly nutritious, nonprocessed meals everyday, and my training session falls right in between 2 of those meals, what benefit do i actually gain by consuming a pre or post workout shake?

I propose for the sake of argument that ALL the fuss and recommendations made over pre/post workout shakes is pure commercial hype for the sole benefit of selling more whey and simple carbs at extortionate prices. Yes there is research showing how whey and dextrose consumed at particular times prior or post WO can influence musclular gains. But i beleive that the same results could be acheived by eating 'real' food (eg eggs, oats and berries) an hour before training. Im certain that eating 'real' food is better for health in general.

As for any 'convienience of whey' arguments. i dont see how is hard to prepare the regular 3 square meals a day and then simply divide the protions you make into 2 for consumption at a latter time...thus making 6 meals without any more effort than making 3.

Granted there are some big guys out there who need a shed load of calories and may well find it hard to consume it clean...well perhaps...but the majority of people do not fall into that category.

Does anyone have any opinions on any of this?
 
I'm not very big, but I need over 4000 calories to grow. That's pretty hard to get from 'clean' foods or from meals, without supplementing with some kind of protein powder.

Also, I don't know about other people, but I work 10 am - 7 pm most days, have a wife and four kids... so there isn't a lot of time to be eating all day.

Those are only my reasons for supplementing with shakes though. It's undoubtedly different for other people.
 
ok so you are using processed foods for the convinience aspect. Fair enough. But my question/proposition is that downing high sugar and fast protein shakes is at the expense of some health and well being (especially gut health and associated). Thus we should be aware of the compromise we are making in the pursuit of size...a comprimise which i am suggesting that we dont HAVE to make in order to gain that size.
 
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(stevie @ Mar. 17 2006,05:45)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Im certain that eating 'real' food is better for health in general.</div>
That can be argued majorly, a lot of the 'benefit' of real food is from the wonderful world of correlation.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">As for any 'convienience of whey' arguments. i dont see how is hard to prepare the regular 3 square meals a day and then simply divide the protions you make into 2 for consumption at a latter time...thus making 6 meals without any more effort than making 3. </div>

I like this, but I find it hard to drink my steak during training.
sad.gif


<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
Granted there are some big guys out there who need a shed load of calories and may well find it hard to consume it clean...well perhaps...but the majority of people do not fall into that category. </div>Most of the stuff is hype, and I ahve yet to see anything that says the addition fo pre/post trainign results in 3/5 of nothing outside of supplying extra calories (at least outside of first thing in the morning)
However, there is only so much 'real' food people like to eat. the consumption of milk is all well adn good, btu some dont like the additional carbohydrates that come with it. Whey offers the ability to get most of the benefits of milk without additional calories.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Does anyone have any opinions on any of this?</div>

people want choice, people get choice. Yaay choice
 
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(stevie @ Mar. 17 2006,11:22)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Fair enough. But my question/proposition is that downing high sugar and fast protein shakes is at the expense of some health and well being (especially gut health and associated). Thus we should be aware of the compromise we are making in the pursuit of size...</div>
If somebody can show me eveidence that its causing any negative health consequences, then i would most definately like to see.it.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">a comprimise which i am suggesting that we dont HAVE to make in order to gain that size.</div>

if you want to get big, and I dont mean 180, I eman big, you will not achieve adequate food intake by eating whole, usually energy poor foods. Its part of the game. Being bigger is not nessecarily healthy (and if anyone comments that its being fat bigger, I ahve also seen working looking at increased muscle mass increasing risk of cancer...) its part of life. If you eat red meat you may increase your risk of cancer, bulking, increase risk of heart dsiease (no matter how nice the food is), etc etc etc.

Life sucks then you die
 
Wait, so are you saying theres no real research that exists to date that has compared the effect of eating healthy meals 6 times a day &amp; training inbetween...to haveing pre/post workout shakes with fast acting carbs &amp; protein on muscular gains ??
Theres gotta be somethin, or else what is everyone basing this idea on ?
 
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(Razien99 @ Mar. 17 2006,15:12)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Wait, so are you saying theres no real research that exists to date that has compared the effect of eating healthy meals 6 times a day &amp; training inbetween...</div>
not really

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">to haveing pre/post workout shakes with fast acting carbs &amp; protein on muscular gains ??</div>depends if you like fasted acute work looking at nanomolar increases in muscle amino acids. (there is some work looking at pre/post training supplementation, but most of it is utterly worthless research)
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Theres gotta be somethin, or else what is everyone basing this idea on ?</div>A lot of it is based on fasted acute work looking at nanololar increases in muscle amino acids.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If somebody can show me eveidence that its causing any negative health consequences, then i would most definately like to see.it.</div>

I would like to see that too!

I may be totally mislead by the many dodgy ideas thrown about, but i was under the impression that a diet full of sugar and other highly refined foods will most likely lead to poor gut health (possibly other health issues also? ) . Well many people are downing pre and post WO drinks on a very regular basis...not to mention meal replacements and weight gainers. In my book that means a relatively large proportion of their calories come from sugars and refined foods.

The number of people i have heard complaining about gas, upset stomaches, runny stools, 'lactose intolerance'... etc resulting from consumption of protien powders and weight gainers. can this not all be explained by the nature of 'fast' drinks? Even if someone doesnt 'display' visible syptoms, it does not mean that there are no negative implications in the long term.

Im probably over doing the health angle now, so ill stop here before i bore you all to death.


<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">so are you saying theres no real research that exists to date that has compared the effect of eating healthy meals 6 times a day &amp; training inbetween...to haveing pre/post workout shakes with fast acting carbs &amp; protein on muscular gains ??
Theres gotta be somethin, or else what is everyone basing this idea on ?</div>

That is a big part of my point. Everyone has extrapolated data from fasted studies (as Aaron and others have mentioned many times). Those data have been overhyped for the intention of selling products. Marketing hype has unfortunatley filtered down into common bodybuilding knowledge.


(By the way, yes I acknowledge that getting the extra easy calories is a priority for many people.)
 
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(stevie @ Mar. 18 2006,00:45)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I may be totally mislead by the many dodgy ideas thrown about, but i was under the impression that a diet full of sugar and other highly refined foods will most likely lead to poor gut health (possibly other health issues also? ) .</div>
THe research on that is from the lovely world of correlation, and generall correlation in inactive people. Im guessing people who are consuming a pre/post workout supplement are active.

Gut is a questionable one as well. Massive quantities of sugar may run a fun in the gut, but we are not talking about massive quantties

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Well many people are downing pre and post WO drinks on a very regular basis...not to mention meal replacements and weight gainers. In my book that means a relatively large proportion of their calories come from sugars and refined foods.</div>I dont know how much you consume around training.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The number of people i have heard complaining about gas, upset stomaches, runny stools, 'lactose intolerance'... etc resulting from consumption of protien powders and weight gainers. </div> Its a great experiment, now how to prove it? Bbrs also do a ton of other weird stuff.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">can this not all be explained by the nature of 'fast' drinks? </div>havent seen anything from the literature

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Even if someone doesnt 'display' visible syptoms, it does not mean that there are no negative implications in the long term.</div>They cannot really associate sugar intake to many health conditions without involving increased food intake and obesity, so how will it work in subjects who are consuming moderate amounts, while performing relatively vigorous physical activity and (usually) maintaining lower than average bodyfat levesl?

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Im probably over doing the health angle now, so ill stop here before i bore you all to death.</div>doesnt worry me, mainly becuase its my job
 
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(Aaron_F @ Mar. 12 2006,06:27)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">When your fasted, there definately is a window of opportunity, but we dont have enough data to really show what is happening in the fed state.  Even John Ivy does not have enough informaiton to draw a complete story out of it.</div>
I was gonna ask about this. So was the majority of that book based on studies done on people who had been fasted? I mean how much of what they state could be taken and used in a realistic situation...or is it just largely based on assumptions &amp; they were lookin to make money.
 
Basically extrapolating somewhat. There is some elderly work and animal work for post workout timing, but not a lot in normal humans (well, elderly are normal, its just that aging alters gastrointestinal function, so the effects of dietary protein is somewhat different in them than somebody &lt;65years old
 
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