Vicious, can you check the math for me...

[Jester]

I'm having trouble increasing the weights for my incline curls, now that I've pretty much reached the top end of the 5s. I can cluster 5 reps for 27.5kgs/60.5lbs, and I throw in a loaded stretch for bis as well.

What I'm thinking of doing is normal (not incline) db curls b/c I can use a slightly bigger weight and then doing my loaded stretch on the incline, burns also done of course.

Is this a good idea, or should I just stick to clusters, then do negs(usign a lil body english if necessary) with burns...?

 

[savagebeast]

I'm not so experienced with clustering, but I had another thought. You could try using hammer curls as opposed to db curls. There was a thread about this a long time ago, it was started by Bob Evans, I think. Most people are able to use more weight for hammer curls than db curls, enabling you to place the biceps under higher tension.

If you're going to use negatives for curls, you could try using a machine. That's my favorite way to do them. Two hands up, one hand down, nice, slow, and controlled. That should allow you to use significantly more weight per arm than you could if you were doing both the concentric and eccentric portion. If you find the right machine, it works pretty well.

 

[semajes]

Have to agree about using the machines for negatives. Works brilliantly. You can use this same two hands up, one hand down, technique with db curls, but it can be a bit awkward.

As for the incline or not question, I think that the increased weight will be more important than the additional stretch you may get from the incline position. Plus, if you add a loaded incline stretch at the end anyway, you get the best of both worlds. After that, give the negatives a try.

 

[vicious]

Quote[/b] ]As for the incline or not question, I think that the increased weight will be more important than the additional stretch you may get from the incline position.

Nah, that turns out not to be quite true. The reason why you can use significantly more weight with machines and normal angle curls is due to leverage factors. It's not really so much that you produce more tension against the stretch, but that you produce more overall force due to limb angles and direction of resistance.

The problem with incline curls is that, for many people, there's very little load progression to navigate with. But I usually argue that the raising of the weight itself is besides the point with movements like incline curls.

So, in Jester's example, I would just recommend altering the arm angle (i.e. move elbow toward waist), THEN raise the weight. It essentially becomes a normal DB curl when you raise the weight, and then you lower the weight as an incline curl. Ideally, you'd calibrate your incline curl "5RM" to the actual normal DB curl 5RM. Similarly, you'd do the same for the incline fly (use the normal DB fly 5RM . . . when it gets tough, just go into a pressing motion to raise the weight.)

But, yeah, Jester, you could also just use incline curl as basis for LS, and use something normal. That's a reasonable alternative too.

cheers,
Jules

 

[semajes]

Not to argue with you vicious -- nothing but respect -- but I'm wondering what has lead you to this belief? I would think an extra 10 pounds through 5 or so concentric/eccentric repetitions would cause more damage to the tissue regardless of how much additional stretch one might get from the incline position. Of course, I don't have any direct information either way. Perhaps you have studies?

 

[vicious]

Quote[/b] ]I would think an extra 10 pounds through 5 or so concentric/eccentric repetitions would cause more damage to the tissue regardless of how much additional stretch one might get from the incline position

Thing is, people who are doing stuff like incline curls, skullcrushers, and deep flies, should be doing negatives with them anyway. There's really nothing stopping you from increasing the load further and just working on the eccentric contraction.

The disadvantage with incline curls isn't so much that the ceiling load isn't as higher as a normal curl movement, but that because the ceiling isn't as high, you don't as many progression steps to work with. But respective of absolute load itself, the normal DB curl doesn't really generate higher peak tension in the biceps than the incline curl; part of the load shouldered with the DB curl is contributed by the upper back and so on, as well as the superior leverage with a normal angle.

The reason you would want to work with extra stretch is because the normal bicep curl doesn't work the muscle at a higher stretch than what the pulling and deadlift movements already do. Most of its real worth is additional mechanical work on the muscle and possibly higher metabolic stress. In fact, if you're doing deadlifts with over/under grips, it isn't really until you get to your 5RM and beyond (through negatives and such), that the bicep curls really becomes the primary strain component for that bodypart. And that goes back to why many people still believe that the best arm movements are the big movement, not the curls and such.

Again, the principal problem isn't the ceiling but the number of load progressions available to you. But, that can be easily rectified by changing up the arm angle during the raising portion of the incline curl. Of course, if this is too much to manage, normal curls + LS works just fine too.

cheers,
Jules

 

[Totentanz]

Not to butt in, but what is the best way to do inclines anyway? The way they show it on exrx doesn't seem to produce as much stretch for me as it does when I do it with my palms facing outward the entire time... but that could just be my perception.

 

[imported_dkm1987]

I start them in a supinated grip and end in a hammer. I think the main thing is, as Vicious has instructed and where I got the idea from

, is you should concentrate on the eccentric and you should take your elbow back causing the most stretch.

 

[Jester]

Thanks for the replies guys

Quote[/b] ]In fact, if you're doing deadlifts with over/under grips, it isn't really until you get to your 5RM and beyond (through negatives and such), that the bicep curls really becomes the primary strain component for that bodypart. And that goes back to why many people still believe that the best arm movements are the big movement, not the curls and such.

Does the over/under dead generate any more stretch than just grabbing the bar off the rack, same grip and holding it...? I'm assuming the answer is 'No', but thought I'd ask as I think I'm going to drop deads for the moment. I want to specialise on my upper body during this heavy cycle, and given that I'm doing Bent Over Rows(lower back) I'm only going to do isolation exercises for the legs. I don't fancy 6-7 weeks of 5RM deads and BORs 6x a week.

So basically, can I use the over/under hold as a LS for bis, traps, forearms and traps still...?

Also, as you mentioned some ppl think the best work for bis is done during the bigger movements. I'd definitely agree to this after doing CG chins and loaded hanging stretches both WG and CG, for lats primarily but you feel the strain across the bis.

 

[vicious]

Quote[/b] ]I'm only going to do isolation exercises for the legs. I don't fancy 6-7 weeks of 5RM deads and BORs 6x a week.

Better than sex, mate. Better than.

Quote[/b] ]Does the over/under dead generate any more stretch than just grabbing the bar off the rack, same grip and holding it...?

Theoretically a little bit; the turnaround at the bottom of the movement *may* cause a slight pulse-stretch effect, especially if you regrip the weight at the ground. Other than that, it's about the same.

Quote[/b] ]So basically, can I use the over/under hold as a LS for bis, traps, forearms and traps still...?

It works as a very high-tension static hold, but it's technically not a true loaded stretch. That itself is pretty effective since you're not anything approaching that with the bent over rows. But a true LS kicks off the stretch reflex in addition to providing a high tension load at stretch. And that usually requires working the muscle at a range of motion it's entirely unaccustomed toward working. Thus, the incline. Some people may have to go flat bench, or do a more extreme stretch to get a reaction.

cheers,
Jules

 

[Bob Evans]

Quote[/b] ]Thus, the incline. Some people may have to go flat bench, or do a more extreme stretch to get a reaction.

Ok I have been doing incline curls, and feel a stretch. I try to keep my elbows "quiet" (as in I do not let them move) to create a fulcrum -- to get a strech. But I want more!!! ( a typical lifters lament -- the pursuit of more) I will try a flat bench. I was also thinking of having the back of my elbow on the top point of a preacher bench and holding a weight (ie bending my elbow backwards --just a bit -- hyperextension) Any more thoughts on geting a good bis stretch??? Any other specific lifts - moves - streches. If it is in another thread just point the way.

Danke, Bobby

 

[Bob Evans]

O.K. One follow up -- how does one do the flat bench curls???

 

[vicious]

As you would with an incline, but on a flat bench. In other words, your elbows perpendicular with the bench. The problem is in finding a bench high enough to do without touching the ground.

I should probably add that, one big flaw with the reflex itself (LS and PS) is that the farther you go, the farther you detrain that reflex and weaken the effect. After all, people use this kind of modality in order to gain flexibility at a quick rate. I don't think it's a problem here because you'll be adding progressive elements, either adding more stretch time, going deeper, or increasing the load itself. But, at the same time, LS will probably feel easier anyway as you become more flexible. Thus, it's probably not advisable to make a fetish of going more extreme with these stretches, or going all out with the LS during your first time. You just want a little bit of the effect each time out, not "oh my God, the PAIN!!!!" You don't need to because you're applying it 3x-a-week, rather than once or twice-a-week as you would in a program such as DC. Finally, remember that PS (pulse stretch) is itself more effective than LS. Once LS becomes pretty comfortable with you, then you can switch toward the more effective and dangerous PS and really strain the area.

Don't you love all of the acronyms?

The extreme, extreme variation of bicep curl is something like what you'd do in DC (except with a progressive load element.) I don't recommend this, but hey if you're curious . . .

1) You'd take a cable crossover machine with the pulleys on high.

2) Initially, you'd do a motion similar to a cable-based decline press with your knee forward. You do this just so that you get the cables across your body.

3) With the grips fully in front of you, you rotate your grip, so that it becomes a curling motion, lower your elbow joint to around waistline. This will be your starting position.

4) Then, as you "lower" the weight, you basically pivot your elbow joint backwards until they're behind and above your shoulders (or whenever you can't go anymore.) When your elbow stops, you straighten out your elbow. And while you're doing this, you lean forward and downwards as much as possible.

5) When you've got your full stretch, you return back to the starting position by bending your elbow, pivoting the joint, and leaning backwards.

Finally, for those REALLY interested in the extreme end of strain (and dang sure their connective tissue is made of steel), consider looking into using straps and working on super, super heavy chin holds and over-under holds. Avoiding lockout, just hold the bastard for 3-5 seconds, rerack and do it again 5-15 times. If you can deadlift, say, 250lbs, you can probably just hold it another 50-100lbs while standing. Your body is going to feel that.

Finally, for those REALLY interested in the extreme end of strain (and dang sure their connective tissue is made of steel), consider looking into using straps and working on super, super heavy chin holds and over-under holds. Avoiding lockout, just hold the bastard for 3-5 seconds, rerack and do it again 5-15 times. If you can deadlift, say, 250lbs, you can probably just hold it another 50-100lbs while standing. Your body is going to feel that.

For those who want lats like Dorian, imagine slamming on another 50-70% more weight than you'd normally do for your chins, and just hold it without worrying about your grip, and just hold it there for as long as possible. And if you avoid lockout, you hit the biceps pretty hard.

cheers,
Jules

 

[Lance]

Quote[/b] ]Finally, for those REALLY interested in the extreme end of strain (and dang sure their connective tissue is made of steel), consider looking into using straps and working on super, super heavy chin holds and over-under holds. Avoiding lockout, just hold the bastard for 3-5 seconds, rerack and do it again 5-15 times. If you can deadlift, say, 250lbs, you can probably just hold it another 50-100lbs while standing. Your body is going to feel that.

You sadistic man!

Those chins sound like a torture technique, and the deads would leave me unable to walk for a few days.

 

[Bob Evans]

Thank you Jules,

I gotta admit I like the pain Must be the result of a happy childhood. Give me a month to try to visualize the DC cross over pull - curl. I think I need to draw diagrams.

In the mean time a simplistic question. What did you mean by chin holds and over and under holds??

Thanks Robert

 

[Lance]

underhand deadlift holds with heavy weights and also chins (w/straps attached) with very heavy weights as well. Huge stress and strain there.

 

[Bob Evans]

Thanks Lance,  so it is just heavy chins with straps.  and heavy deads underhanded to stretch the bis.
then over under?  Is that one hand over one hand under deads?

If the above is true then just the "under" hand gets the stretch.

It is just a terminology issue but I want to get it right!
Roberto

 

 

[Lance]

I'm sorry, i meant over-underhand grip. Vicious allways suggests switching your hands (which one goes over and under) so they get equal stress.

 

[Bob Evans]

O.K. I guess here is my confusion. I thought deads with an underhand grip (palms away) gives the best bis stretch or load. I have been doing these with straps.

Wouldn't over under only hit one arm? The "under" arm. I guess you would have to do 2 sets. And the one atvantage is that one can go heavier with out straps with an over-under grip (over-under definded as one palm away and one palm facing)

Don't intend to belabor a minor point. It is just as long as I am doing all this hard work -- I wanna get it right.

Thank You, Robbie

 

[Jester]

Quote[/b] ]Better than sex, mate. Better than.

Carefully designed and performed scientific experiments have me questioning that

Quote[/b] ]Finally, remember that PS (pulse stretch) is itself more effective than LS. Once LS becomes pretty comfortable with you, then you can switch toward the more effective and dangerous PS and really strain the area.

PS is pulsing at the bottom(most stretched point) of the loaded stretch yeh?


Also, I've decided to rearrange my workout to accomodate all the biceps work I'm doing now. Doing the bicep work before shrugs, as they seem to "pull" on too much prior to concentric work.


We have a machine that basically simulates a preachers bench. How would this rate as a biceps exercise for doing negs...? (raising the bar with two hands, lowering with one). Infact, how does the preacher bench rate as a bicep exercise overall, just curious....?