Volume vs. Frequency

Hey guys. Glad to see that this thread evoked such great resonance.
I've been in the lifting game for over 10 years now and must say that I'm really surprised how much volume you guys do. 20 reps ist the utmost for me. Usually I have to cut the volume down to 15 and then to 12 reps when I hit my Rm3/Rm2. This still kicks butt and is more than enough to induce strength and hypertrophy. If I remember correctly Bryan even suggested to do only one set of 5 in the 5ers. So do u really need to do that exorbitant amount of reps (30+) to grow or haven't you just tried with a lower volume (especially Joe Muscle)? I know that I can't stand even 20 reps when I lift my Rm3 for example.
 
Many moons ago I had put together some snippets of Bryan speaking to different aspects, I feel these are still pertinent today so let me point some of them out again.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">As long as a &quot;highly conditioned&quot; person stays within his/her limits of exercise tolerance, doing more generally means better gains. I don't mean more fatigue, I mean more reps with a given load... Sounds like one in the same but it isn't really. To understand, consider the &quot;effort&quot; (A.K.A. CNS activation) it requires to do the 1st as compared to the last rep of your 10 rep max. The tension produced on the tissue doesn't change from the 1st rep to the last. The only thing that changes is the amount of CNS activiation required to contract the muscle under load.</div>

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So, more reps doesn't necessarily mean more fatigue IF you can get enough rest inbetween sets. To get more and more rest, simply do 2 workouts spread out by several hours. Hence, the value of training twice per day.</div>Naturally there are other ways as well
wink.gif


<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Gauging load and volume is like hitting a moving target. Your body is constantly changing its level of adaptation or conditioning. That is why having a method that allows you to predict what you will need to do each workout over an extended period of time based on our understanding of how the body will adapt to each workout [run on sentance, sorry] is the best method for consistant gains. This assumes the method is based on a sound understanding of physiology.</div>This is one reason I choose to use a consistant number of reps throughout the entire cycle, it diminishes this sliding scale and give a much more accurate status of &quot;where&quot; you are day by day.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If you don’t have enough weight, increasing the volume does not increase hypertrophy, it only increases endurance.</div>

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">it's important to keep in mind that the relationships between load and volume are not static. For example, given sufficient load, adding more volume after gains have stopped is a legitamate strategy. Like wise, given sufficient volume, simply increasing the load is an obvious solution to stagnation.</div>Underlined my point there.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">During the 5s experienced lifters will then need to reduce the number of exercise and increase the number of sets to 3 (or 4). Yes, the loads used during the 5s should normally be heavy enough to stimulate growth, even with 1 or 2 sets. However, we have just progressed over the last 6-8 weeks up to this point. Our level of resistance to the load has increased to the point where two sets (10 reps) isn’t sufficient.</div>

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Bear in mind that the manner in which you perform each rep will have an impact on the effectiveness of the set. Emphasize the negative and use speed (NOT momentum) for the concentric portion.</div>Again underlined my point.

Nuff said
 
<div>
(MoDog @ Oct. 07 2007,01:15)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Hey guys. Glad to see that this thread evoked such great resonance.
I've been in the lifting game for over 10 years now and must say that I'm really surprised how much volume you guys do. 20 reps ist the utmost for me. Usually I have to cut the volume down to 15 and then to 12 reps when I hit my Rm3/Rm2. This still kicks butt and is more than enough to induce strength and hypertrophy. If I remember correctly Bryan even suggested to do only one set of 5 in the 5ers. So do u really need to do that exorbitant amount of reps (30+) to grow or haven't you just tried with a lower volume (especially Joe Muscle)? I know that I can't stand even 20 reps when I lift my Rm3 for example.</div>
Modog,

I agree with you during the heavy 5's but outside of the real heavy 5's I personally think more TUT or volume is better IMO. Now when I say more volume I am talking around 30 to 36 reps.

Here is why I believe this.

1. First for me I have had some injuries over the years (torn muscles) that limit the amount of weight I feel comfortable lifting. So to be exact I never under any circumstance go below 5 rep max. Matter fact I try to stick to my 6 to 8 rep max almost all of the time. Given that I am not able or feel its smart to train heavier than that I have to follow the principals of progressive load on higher rep ranges (which to my knowledge works great with the science). So for me that means that I normally start with 15's for a week which is all about a burn and joint repair. Then I move on to around 12 reps then 10 then 6 to 8 reps. I normally will go from my last week of a 6 rep max with drop sets and other things right before SD. So that gives you and idea of why I like it for myself. Another thing to consider for MY training is that if you are using lighter loads then more volume is doable and is neccisary for me if I am not going to lift heavier.

2. Second reason I like the 30 rep range is 30 reps over 3 times a week is 90 total reps. And from Kelly Baggetts recommendation on his website...plus Lyle Macdonalds website majority of REALLY SMART SCIENCE guys agree this is a ok rule to lift because they think 50 to 100 reps a week is about ideal for hypertrophy. If they think its ideal then I believe these guys b/c they are smarter than me on the science side.

3. Thirdly I don't think each bodypart needs to be hit with equal volume. For example 30 to 36 reps is what I like for my workouts....but what I have left out is that shoulder don't get hit with that many reps neither do biceps and triceps. So Normally my main compound muscle group are the ones with the highest volume meaning (Chest,BACK,LEGS) to be exact Legs get more volume than any of the other.

So if you can grow off lower volume...more power to you and in fact I am jelous
biggrin.gif
. I wish I could grow off of lower volume better.

But for me 36 reps already seems like and easy workout compared to my younger dumber years of lifting.

4. Fourth and lastly I guess I still want let go of my old school bodybuilding roots were I still think a little more is better than not enough.

I have tried HST with 1 Heavy set per bodypart and to be honest it was the easy workout of my life and I felt like I didn't accomplish enough.

I still like a workout to feel like a workout sometimes. Just understand when I say 36 reps I am not using my 3 rep max or anything.

I hope this helps!
biggrin.gif
 
It all works for some people. We are not genetically similar robots that came off an assembly line. Experiment and find out what works for you today. When you stagnate, it's time to change.
 
<div>
(Joe.Muscle @ Oct. 07 2007,10:06)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">That may look like 2 sets of 15s, 3 sets of 10...then 2 sets of 10  then maybe 3 sets of 5 and then 2 sets of 5 when it gets real heavy.</div>
Its hard for me to believe that 2 sets of 5's could make hypertrophy
 
It would be tough if you are conditioned lifter.

If you are a noob then it would most likely work.

Again though you cant have your cake and eat it too.

You have to expierement to see what works for you.

Is 2 sets enough. It may be fine for a guy at the end of a HST cycle who is brand new to lifting.

if you are new to lifting Go for more sets 4 to 5 sets for the 5's.

If you think it want work...then by all means try the higher volume.

The main thing that HST or Bryan advecates is use as much Volume as possible as long as it doesn't decrease from frequency or load.

So if you want to do more sets then do them...but you have to ask yourself if you can continue to lift more weight the next workout at the same frequency.
 
<div>
(Joe.Muscle @ Oct. 07 2007,17:38)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">It would be tough if you are conditioned lifter.

If you are a noob then it would most likely work.

Again though you cant have your cake and eat it too.

You have to expierement to see what works for you.

Is 2 sets enough. It may be fine for a guy at the end of a HST cycle who is brand new to lifting.

if you are new to lifting Go for more sets 4 to 5 sets for the 5's.

If you think it want work...then by all means try the higher volume.

The main thing that HST or Bryan advecates is use as much Volume as possible as long as it doesn't decrease from frequency or load.

So if you want to do more sets then do them...but you have to ask yourself if you can continue to lift more weight the next workout at the same frequency.</div>
Isn't it quite the opposite? If you are an experienced and conditioned lifter, a deadlift does stimulate much more muscle fibres im comparison to a noob who deadlifts. So the more conditioned you are, the more fibres are recruited for each and every lift (especially the big compounds) and thus the drain on the CNS is much bigger.
 
The trouble with the big lifts (especially deads) is that they do cause a massive amount of fatigue and CNS drain when the loads are around your 5RM. For a new lifter the drain is less than it would be for a seasoned lifter, not just because the loads are generally lighter for a new lifter but because fewer motor units are being fired. A lot of improvement is generally made in the deadlift as a lifter 'learns' the lift and is able to coordinate and fire a lot more motor units. For a lot of seasoned lifters, just one set of deads at their 5RM is probably plenty if they are hoping to recover for a workout in a few days time. The spinal erectors take a huge amount of stress and if you want to hit some heavy squats a day or so later you want them to have recovered a good deal of strength.

Now I am a bit stronger, I find attempting sets across with loads at or above my 5RM is just too fatiguing. So now I do several reasonable heavy sets as a ramp up to a top set. Of course, the other thing you can do if you really want to get more reps at your 5RM loads is to use Max Stim style reps. This is a great way to reduce the fatiguing effects, but you still have to watch out with deads.

Just like O&amp;G said earlier in the thread, because we are all different to some degree, you have to find out how something like this affects you individually and adjust things accordingly.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Gauging load and volume is like hitting a moving target. Your body is constantly changing its level of adaptation or conditioning. That is why having a method that allows you to predict what you will need to do each workout over an extended period of time based on our understanding of how the body will adapt to each workout [run on sentance, sorry] is the best method for consistant gains. This assumes the method is based on a sound understanding of physiology.</div>

Dan, very interesting. and THAT'S the thing i personally have trouble with because diet is ALSO an issue here. people may think that they're not growing as much because of training, and thus increase volume, yet it may just be an issue of not enough calories! which i have trouble finding, even on these calculations some are recommending WAY below what i should be eating i think.

Dan, do you have any more snippets from Bryan that we don't have yet? i'd LOVE TO READ MORE SERIOUSLY haha i feel like i'm still lost, the FAQ has GREAT information on it yet doesn't cover absolutely everything, i may read through it again. :S

Lol, a quick question sorta off topic, what if someone plans to do instead of 2 sets, do 1 set of squats and 1 set of deadlifts in the one workout? is that enough stimulation for quad growth? they are both similar movements EXCEPT deads are not so quad focused and the hammies and glutes are the primary movers pulling the weight up, yet the quads STILL are in effect being used due to knee extension, what do u think?

and yes i totally agree with keeping the volume constant to know where u are now and so forth.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">that I have to follow the principals of progressive load on higher rep ranges (which to my knowledge works great with the science).</div>

Joe.Muscle, do u mean say 10 reps? and what sort of load progression do you do, as in submax ramping up, or pushing your RMs forward in standard traditional manner (ie add weight when you can)?
 
<div>
(Old and Grey @ Oct. 07 2007,15:48)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">It all works for some people. We are not genetically similar robots that came off an assembly line. Experiment and find out what works for you today. When you stagnate, it's time to change.</div>
O&amp;G -- you're back... again?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top