What am I doing wrong???
- Thread starter Joe.Muscle
- Start date
balance, speed, flexibility, muscular endurance, cardio vascular endurance, power, agility, anaerobic efficiency and strength are more important than the way we look IMO but if you have these then you would probably look good anyway
as you say drop the reps and see how it helps,some people gain better on less some on more.
but it is easy to get carried away and do to many sets and reps before you know it your in the gym for 3hrs
what i prefer to do is rather than say increase the reps or sets on dips i do 2sets of dips,if i need more work for chest then i would do 2sets of incline-bench,and the same on all other exercises.
but i make sure my routine never lasts more than 1hr that way i know i am not doing to much.
some guys on here only do 4 exercises if that works
but it doesnt for me i know i have tried
as you say drop the reps and see how it helps,some people gain better on less some on more.
but it is easy to get carried away and do to many sets and reps before you know it your in the gym for 3hrs
what i prefer to do is rather than say increase the reps or sets on dips i do 2sets of dips,if i need more work for chest then i would do 2sets of incline-bench,and the same on all other exercises.
but i make sure my routine never lasts more than 1hr that way i know i am not doing to much.
some guys on here only do 4 exercises if that works
Joe.Muscle
Active Member
Faz,
Thanks for the suggestion. However If I went by the one hour rule...then I could prob do way more sets than I am currently doing.
That seems to be my problem...I have very conditioned or in shape endurance wise.
I can do 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 sets and recover fine the next workout.
How can I do this and everyone else can't???......( well hence my post about I know I am not superman
)
What I mean is I am not different than anyone esle...so if everyone esle can't recover as fast as me then this leads me to believe two things after analyzing my situation.
1) I maybe be more conditioned that the average HST'er. (This is possible)
2) everyone else is using higher loads more effective which is causing them more fatigue and limiting there sets. (This is what I think is happening.)
Long story short I think I have been to focused on volume, injury to make sure I am using a heavy enough load.
I don't know for sure but I am going to run a 8 week cycle to find out!
Since I am not to concerned with growth right now....I am going to be anal and just do a deload week.
I am doing 1 set of 15 reps this week nice and slow.
Next week I am going to start with 2 sets of 10 reps for Bench, Rows, Shoulder press, leg press.
I am not going to concern myself with progressive load on the arms...I am just going to do a metabloic set for them.
However I am going to make sure the load goes up every workout if possilbe if its only by 2 pounds....(its got to go up
)
If I do this on the other core lifts this should tell me something.
Along with proper diet...and excess calories this time around it will be cool to see the results.
If It works as plan...and most likely it will. I will do a full 14 day SD and start with a True HST style plan for nothing but growth!
Thanks for you advice!
Thanks for the suggestion. However If I went by the one hour rule...then I could prob do way more sets than I am currently doing.
That seems to be my problem...I have very conditioned or in shape endurance wise.
I can do 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 sets and recover fine the next workout.
How can I do this and everyone else can't???......( well hence my post about I know I am not superman
What I mean is I am not different than anyone esle...so if everyone esle can't recover as fast as me then this leads me to believe two things after analyzing my situation.
1) I maybe be more conditioned that the average HST'er. (This is possible)
2) everyone else is using higher loads more effective which is causing them more fatigue and limiting there sets. (This is what I think is happening.)
Long story short I think I have been to focused on volume, injury to make sure I am using a heavy enough load.
I don't know for sure but I am going to run a 8 week cycle to find out!
Since I am not to concerned with growth right now....I am going to be anal and just do a deload week.
I am doing 1 set of 15 reps this week nice and slow.
Next week I am going to start with 2 sets of 10 reps for Bench, Rows, Shoulder press, leg press.
I am not going to concern myself with progressive load on the arms...I am just going to do a metabloic set for them.
However I am going to make sure the load goes up every workout if possilbe if its only by 2 pounds....(its got to go up
If I do this on the other core lifts this should tell me something.
Along with proper diet...and excess calories this time around it will be cool to see the results.
If It works as plan...and most likely it will. I will do a full 14 day SD and start with a True HST style plan for nothing but growth!
Thanks for you advice!
It's because you're a FREAK, Joe!
Heheh, naw, you're most likely right where you said,
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">"2) everyone else is using higher loads more effective which is causing them more fatigue and limiting their sets. (This is what I think is happening.)"</div>
Most guys I've seen not growing are usually doing two things wrong. Bad diet and weenie workouts. But lifting heavy is an art: I've messed myself up not cycling, overtraining, too many exersizes, etc.
I've learned a LOT from HST and the 5x5 strength stuff...my wheels have finally responded a little (which is to say a lot, after no growth for years) and the most prominent discovery was in front of my face all along: less exersizes (volume) leaves you with more guts for more load. I really believe I've found a "Holy Grail" in the idea of alternating strength cycles with hypertrophy cycles. This year will tell.
My one fear here is that after gaining strength, I have to lose it in a deload to activate the hypertrophy cycle of submax weights. I can only assume that the "submax" is going to be, of course, higher than it would have been without the strength cycle, and therefore, more productive.
"Lift heavy or go home" still applies?
I think I just posed as many questions as I tried to answer!
Heheh, naw, you're most likely right where you said,
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">"2) everyone else is using higher loads more effective which is causing them more fatigue and limiting their sets. (This is what I think is happening.)"</div>
Most guys I've seen not growing are usually doing two things wrong. Bad diet and weenie workouts. But lifting heavy is an art: I've messed myself up not cycling, overtraining, too many exersizes, etc.
I've learned a LOT from HST and the 5x5 strength stuff...my wheels have finally responded a little (which is to say a lot, after no growth for years) and the most prominent discovery was in front of my face all along: less exersizes (volume) leaves you with more guts for more load. I really believe I've found a "Holy Grail" in the idea of alternating strength cycles with hypertrophy cycles. This year will tell.
My one fear here is that after gaining strength, I have to lose it in a deload to activate the hypertrophy cycle of submax weights. I can only assume that the "submax" is going to be, of course, higher than it would have been without the strength cycle, and therefore, more productive.
"Lift heavy or go home" still applies?
I think I just posed as many questions as I tried to answer!
RUSS
Member
I'm not sure how it would fit in with HST (I'm using it in lieu of negatives) but the 10x3 is the most effective short term strength/size builder I've used. Using 85 to 90 % of your 1rm makes 3 reps intense enough to build serious strength very quickly, the 10 sets is enough volume to grow size relative to that heavier weight. Personally my experience has been that burnout comes around the 8 to 12 week period if doing a 10x3 program , but if used at the end of HST, 2 to ? weeks right before deloading ,or SD this may be a very effective option, seems to be working rather well for me so far (first week of negatives).
Just an idea...
Just an idea...
Lifting N Tx
New Member
Joe, I think that your points 1 and 2 are both correct. I've seen some of your posts before, and you're way more conditioned than me. This is a good thing. I've shortened the time between warm up sets just to try to up my conditioning a bit. For you it's time to work on strength. Don't worry that you'll lose the endurance. If you get stronger you can still do lots of reps. A while back just to see what I could do I benched 135 for 30 reps and probably could have done 40 if I went to failure. I was only doing very low rep training but 135 was < 50% of my 1RM weight. Edit: corrected 2nd sentence previous since I had left out the word "benched" somehow.
In your case your endurance is way ahead of your strength. I recommend resting a minimum of 2 minutes between sets. If working heavy 3 is better. You want to tax your strength not your endurance. Also, once the weights get heavier slow reps are not helpful. For strength, lifting explosively on the concentric portion is best. Obviously make sure you're warmed up, form is good, etc., especially where there is concern about prior injury. Bottom line is to progress to heavier weights than you've used before and too little rest between sets, too much volume, and slow reps are the enemy of this.
Russ, intersting about the 10x3. Seems like a lot of volume if at 85-90%, but if a few weeks of that isn't a stimulus to growth I don't know what would be.
Quad, I think you're right about the deload. I have no idea about SD. After seeing discussions here, on Dan Moore's site, and other places I don't think anyone knows, but am pretty convinced that a deload should do about the same thing unless you go to a much longer SD than anyone really wants to do (1 month or more?). One to two weeks keeping the load heavy by lowering reps / sets / frequency seems to do well for many. I'm not too sure how that plays with using very low weights at the beginning of an HST cycle, though.
The 5x5 setup of a few weeks of submax lifting, but still heavy enough that modest increments gets you to your max in a month or so, seems to do well. I've seen it used successfully in other setups than just 5x5. This still uses progressive load, 2-3x/week frequency. I'm not convinced that 4 weeks of 15s and 10s, much of them with very submax loads, are necessary for hypertrophy. It's just one setup to apply the HST principles that works for many. On the other had, look at the Madcow "advanced" 5x5. Ignoring the dual factor discussion, which is another topic. It goes some weeks with heavy 5x5 work, a short deload, then 3x3 work to maximize strength gains. I know that you're looked at this stuff some, but you might want to download the zip file with the spreadsheet to see what I mean.
I think that you're getting hypertrophy in the 5x5 part, and probably mostly neural/strength adaptation in the 3x3 part. Reportedly Mark Rippetoe adds a lot of lean body mass for his trainees training mostly in lower rep ranges. That sort of thing seems to work well for those that need a more advanced setup. The point is that really light loads and high reps aren't the only way to generate hypertrophy in an alternating hypertrophy/strength cycle.
If you find that deloading/deconditioning followed by lighter work makes you lose too much strength, maybe tweaking the idea a bit for less time in lower weight ranges but slower ramping of weights would do it. For example, follow the strength cycle with a 1 week deload still at decent load, lower frequency. Then 1 week of 12s, one of 10s, 8s, 6s, then 5s or 4s. Maybe only bump weights once or twice a week, but don't quite go to rep max weights until you hit lower rep ranges.
At this point I'm probably just rambling. My main point is that I agree with the validity of alternating strength and hypertrophy work, though I think that "strength routines" generate more hypertrophy than most believe. I just think there are more ways to build some hypertrophy then maximize strength than most realize, but it may require some tweaking from the "standard" HST template. I still think it's consistent with HST principles, except possibly SD which as we all know if still controversial.
In your case your endurance is way ahead of your strength. I recommend resting a minimum of 2 minutes between sets. If working heavy 3 is better. You want to tax your strength not your endurance. Also, once the weights get heavier slow reps are not helpful. For strength, lifting explosively on the concentric portion is best. Obviously make sure you're warmed up, form is good, etc., especially where there is concern about prior injury. Bottom line is to progress to heavier weights than you've used before and too little rest between sets, too much volume, and slow reps are the enemy of this.
Russ, intersting about the 10x3. Seems like a lot of volume if at 85-90%, but if a few weeks of that isn't a stimulus to growth I don't know what would be.
Quad, I think you're right about the deload. I have no idea about SD. After seeing discussions here, on Dan Moore's site, and other places I don't think anyone knows, but am pretty convinced that a deload should do about the same thing unless you go to a much longer SD than anyone really wants to do (1 month or more?). One to two weeks keeping the load heavy by lowering reps / sets / frequency seems to do well for many. I'm not too sure how that plays with using very low weights at the beginning of an HST cycle, though.
The 5x5 setup of a few weeks of submax lifting, but still heavy enough that modest increments gets you to your max in a month or so, seems to do well. I've seen it used successfully in other setups than just 5x5. This still uses progressive load, 2-3x/week frequency. I'm not convinced that 4 weeks of 15s and 10s, much of them with very submax loads, are necessary for hypertrophy. It's just one setup to apply the HST principles that works for many. On the other had, look at the Madcow "advanced" 5x5. Ignoring the dual factor discussion, which is another topic. It goes some weeks with heavy 5x5 work, a short deload, then 3x3 work to maximize strength gains. I know that you're looked at this stuff some, but you might want to download the zip file with the spreadsheet to see what I mean.
I think that you're getting hypertrophy in the 5x5 part, and probably mostly neural/strength adaptation in the 3x3 part. Reportedly Mark Rippetoe adds a lot of lean body mass for his trainees training mostly in lower rep ranges. That sort of thing seems to work well for those that need a more advanced setup. The point is that really light loads and high reps aren't the only way to generate hypertrophy in an alternating hypertrophy/strength cycle.
If you find that deloading/deconditioning followed by lighter work makes you lose too much strength, maybe tweaking the idea a bit for less time in lower weight ranges but slower ramping of weights would do it. For example, follow the strength cycle with a 1 week deload still at decent load, lower frequency. Then 1 week of 12s, one of 10s, 8s, 6s, then 5s or 4s. Maybe only bump weights once or twice a week, but don't quite go to rep max weights until you hit lower rep ranges.
At this point I'm probably just rambling. My main point is that I agree with the validity of alternating strength and hypertrophy work, though I think that "strength routines" generate more hypertrophy than most believe. I just think there are more ways to build some hypertrophy then maximize strength than most realize, but it may require some tweaking from the "standard" HST template. I still think it's consistent with HST principles, except possibly SD which as we all know if still controversial.
Lifting N Tx
New Member
As long as I've taken up most of the page...
Joe, you might be interested in a post by Glenn Pendlay about his experiences with injuries. He's done it the wrong way and the right way before in recovering from injuries. Fairly long but interesting and somewhat inspirational. The post was in response to a thread started by someone having problems with a shoulder injury.
Joe, you might be interested in a post by Glenn Pendlay about his experiences with injuries. He's done it the wrong way and the right way before in recovering from injuries. Fairly long but interesting and somewhat inspirational. The post was in response to a thread started by someone having problems with a shoulder injury.
Joe.Muscle
Active Member
Lifting N Tx....thank you for the article. I will definatly read it right away.
I think your above post above is exactly right. Its time for me to get Stronger and not worry about endurance.
Thanks to everyone who has gave me feedback on this thread.
Thats the good thing about this forum...I sometimes have great knowledge to give someone with my training expierence but for whatever reason sometimes I don't follow my own advice.
Thanks to everyone again for helping me out!
I think your above post above is exactly right. Its time for me to get Stronger and not worry about endurance.
Thanks to everyone who has gave me feedback on this thread.
Thats the good thing about this forum...I sometimes have great knowledge to give someone with my training expierence but for whatever reason sometimes I don't follow my own advice.
Thanks to everyone again for helping me out!