What's your opinion of using steroids?

Discussion in 'Anything and Everything about dietary supplements' started by Andy741, Aug 26, 2002.

  1. Baoh

    Baoh New Member

    Well, it's your time to waste, if you so choose.

    On anabolex.com, you can search for various topics regarding ergogenics under the handle "Megamorph".

    There are probably around 5000 posts by me on that topic, and an additional 6-7000 posts by me on unrelated topics.

    My user experience includes:

    testosterone
    Stanazolol
    Methandrostenolone
    Oxymetholone
    Trenbolone
    Oxandrolone
    Methyltestosterone
    Methyltrienolone
    Mesterolone
    Danazol
    "1-testosterone"
    Various prohormones (4-ADiol, 19-nor-4-ADiol, 5-AD ether)

    Also:

    clomid
    arimidex
    6-OXO
    Ketotifen
    Vitex
    Bromocriptine
    GH Decompositor
    Sodium Usniate
    Usnic Acid
    T3
    ECY and NCY stacks
    T2
    clenbuterol

    That's all I can remember off the top of my head.

    If you want, you can do that search. If so, look for specific topics, as I posted a lot of off-topic material, too.
     
  2. Baoh

    Baoh New Member

    "First off I agree with you about ephedra...taking the stuff makes me quick tempered and depressed...not to mention the effect is has on my sleep. I don't tolerate it well, I guess."

    Plenty of people have that problem. Plenty more do not. Therefore, if you have that problem, don't use it. If you don't get that problem, use at will.

    "I was shut down hard on a Test/EQ cycle. My cycle was 6 weeks of 500mg/test & 400mg/EQ."

    Why would you do a 6-week cycle of a "long"-acting ester like undecyclenate? Also, what test ester was used? A 6-weeker of Boldenone and testosterone would leave one shut down (depending), yet not allow for an optimal length of time so that the Boldenone could reach optimal levels. Even worse if you used a long-acting testosterone ester. So, right off the bat, you short-changed yourself with your compound choice for that cycle length. If you had chosen testosterone Suspension/testosterone Propionate along with perhaps Boldenone (no ester), you would have made out much better on all fronts.

    "Before that cycle I had done a test/dbol and 2 tren only cycles. The tren shut me down hard too (fina dick), but I seemed to recover from it fairly quickly."

    Trenbolone is known for being especially nasty to the HPTA in most. All the same, that's not why you got Fina dick, nor is Fina dick an accurate method of establishing HPTA suppression.

    "The thing is, I have this feeling that I wouldn’t be able to recover from any cycle now…I don’t think my body would tolerate being shut down again. I don’t plan to find out."

    That's simply a personal choice. No fault in it, either way.

    "Luckily I was able to recover most of what I lost (like I said, about 85%). For a while I didn’t think I was ever going to get my sex drive back…not a good thing!!!"

    Subjective feelings. Beliefs.

    "I did the standard post cycle clomid thing (didn’t do a dang thing)."

    What is the "standard" use of clomid? And how do you know it didn't do a dang thing? Did you have you have a blood panel with testosterone, etcetera, checked? Considering that you didn't properly time the usage of your Boldenone, I could see you potentially improperly applying your clomid usage. You may have been finishing your clomid just as your levels of Boldenone and exogenous testosterone were dropping below the point where they were exerting suppressive stimulus to the HPTA. In that case, it would have been as if you had never taken any Clomiphene at all.

    "I also had some liqidex on hand (which didn’t help either)."

    Again, how did you use it? Also, consider that Liquidex is a basically bootleg stuff. Different sellers have products with varied active ingredient amounts. In other words, you may have bought underdosed or bunk product.

    "Over the next few months I tried tribulus (which actually helps me now if I stick with it), ALC…basically everything rumored to boost testosterone levels."

    Tribulus has nothing to do with testosterone. Only one study *by the manufacturer of the product* found any change in testosterone levels...in rams...that didn't take AAS prior to the study...not humans...taking AAS prior to use. Tribulus is more of a stimulant for libido than anything else. People equate the increased libido with increased testosterone levels. Such is not the case with Tribulus. Protodioscin this and Steriodal Saponin that. It doesn't appreciably raise testosterone levels, especially after an AAS cycle. It is giving you a positive effect, but not in the sense you (naturally) assumed it was.

    Acetyl-L-carnitine is good stuff, but not for restoring endogenous testosterone in suppressed individuals...unless you are a rat suppressed from swimming to exhaustion in cold water. No relation to post-cycle suppression.

    Notice the word you used. "Rumored". Exactly. Rumored. That is all.

    "It was a big wakeup call to have this happen and realize that there really is nothing I could do to fix it."

    Nothing you know of that you can do to fix it.

    "The standard clomid answer is a poor defense which I found it to be very ineffective. This is one of the areas where there is a big void in the side effect prevention game."

    The void comes from not applying personalized therapy to personalized cycles in unique individuals.

    You may be "that guy" (we have all heard of "that guy" in passing) who simply is of such a constitution that you are now unable to recover from the effects of a cycle. You honestly may be, despite what I pointed out above. Still, most people don't react to AAS use by turning out like "that guy", so taking an alarmist stance to their use, just like the manner in which ignorant soccer moms take an alarmist stance to creatine, ephedrine, and protein supplements, is...myopic.

    There IS a risk. There IS. However, for most folks, that risk is very slight. For those who know their bodies and exactly what they are doing with the compounds available to them, the risk is even less.

    They are not as benign as water (which can also kill you if you take enough, mind you), but they are far less damaging than alcohol or even OTC pain meds like Acetominophen and Acetyl salicylate. Have you ever had an alcoholic beverage? Taken a tylenol or an aspirin for an ache? Probably.

    Risk is inherent in being alive. Expand your knowledge to minimize that risk, if you intend to use something.

    Or don't use them. The choice is yours...and mine.
     
  3. restless

    restless New Member


    Actually, ephedra gave me problems a lot more serious than that. I developed a swelling in the prostate area that made urinating very dificult and since them it has never been the same again. As I researched the net I found out that this is a lot more common than I thought, but a lot of people just don't seem to associate it with ephedra/ephedrine use.

    I never had any urinary/prostate problems before that.
     
  4. jboy

    jboy New Member

    Restless, that really sucks man! I don't doubt that it could be the result of the ephedra! I feel like total crap when I take it, and I know that anything that makes me feel that poorly can’t be healthy. I hope you can recover from these health problems! I've come to the point where my health is more important than having an awesome body (unfortunately that hasn't always been my thinking). I can achieve enough with nothing more than a proper diet and training. I'm thinking much longer term now. Once something like this happens, the whole "it'll never happen to me" thing just disappears and your whole way of thinking changes. It's all natural from here on out for me! That means sticking to good clean basic nutrition...no drugs or iffy supplements.

    To anyone who disagrees: I REALLY DON’T CARE! You can do what you want, it’s your choice! I’ve not said otherwise.
     
  5. restless

    restless New Member

    Yes it does. Even more because ephedra works like a charm on me. I lost weight at 3000 kcals with no cardio.

    I'm much better now anyway, even though my prostate never felt the same after that. I just feels different ever since. I haven't had one single night without getting out of bed to piss at least twice. When I was on ephedra I woiuld have to get every hour with an unbelievable urge to piss just to release a few drops of it and get back to bed and feel an almost instant urge to go again.

    Not nice at all.
     
  6. Dianabol

    Dianabol Guest

    AAS are good things when used right, and bad things when abused. On their own, they are amoral.

    To bash AAS is akin to banning cars because thousands die from road accidents each year... the logic is there but is gravely flawed.

    I love AAS. They have their use in the realm of bodybuilding, and when genetic limits must be breached, we call forth the power of these injectable supplements for magic muscles.

    Godspeed, and happy HSTing :)
     
  7. BIZ

    BIZ New Member

    Just to clear something up, and not meaning to insult anyone, but there must come a time when those of you who use pro-hormones and a few other ergonic aids must admit you are not "natural" athletes. If I use tren and you use tribulus, you are no more natural than I am because you are acting to change your natural hormone levels to get an edge either mentally or physically. By the strictest of definitions, taking creatine makes you a chemically aided athlete. Sure, its a naturally occuring compound found in meat and in your own muscles, but so is GH, insulin, and many anabolics...

    This was a realization I came to after lying to myself for years saying I was natural. I looked in my cupboard at all the bottles of pills and powders and realized I was a phony...
     
  8. Baoh

    Baoh New Member

    Very true. There is no real moral difference. Just a legal one.

    Most people who claim to be "natural" are not so. Rather, they are "legal".
     
  9. The term "natural bodybuilder" is an oxymoron, i. e. "natural" and "bodybuilding" contradict each other. The whole purpose of bodybuilding is to increase one's muscle mass beyond what is possible with everyday and athletic activities.

    Or, put differently, by taking up bodybuilding, people want to shape their bodies themselves instead of just relying on nature.

    Optimizing one's nutrition and hormonal setup is a logical consequence of the above. Of course, there might be other considerations (health, money, laws, etc.) which keep you from taking the next step.

    For reasons of political correctness, I therefore suggest to ban the term "natural" from this forum and replace it by "unassisted" (we don't want to discriminate against all those poor 250 lbs monsters, do we ;) ).
     
  10. BIZ

    BIZ New Member

    As a current 250 lb monster, I would not argue with using the terminology "unassisted" instead of "natural". It is only fair to those who have chosen to remain that way and I would rather be called "assisted" instead of "freak". lol
     
  11. Baoh

    Baoh New Member

    Holy snot, man! 250? Very nice work.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. BIZ

    BIZ New Member

    Yeah, I was able to get up to about 240 with 10% bodyfat "unassisted". I have been able to push that up to ~250-255 with ~11% bodyfat just by adding tren. Have got very strong with the tren as well. Love the fact that I lose very little when I cycle off.
     
  13. Sorry, I am an old man.

    I have a love-hate relationship with bodybuilding since 1978.
    I was 18 then and looked up to my idols Arnold Franco Sergio and Zane.
    No matter how hard i trained and how much i ate, i never even came close to their physiques.
    Sure, I never ever took steroids.
    I became frustrated over time.Got other interests.

    In early 2002 i decided to give bodybuilding another try.
    Searching for some logic on the web i stumbled upon ThinkMuscle and HST.

    Since April 2002, just before turning 42, i started my first HST cycle, to lose excess bodyfat and hold on to my musclemass as much as possible.

    The results i got amazed me. For the first time a method that worked for me. Through trial and errror i got the loadincreases, exercises,frequency, cyclelength, and diet right. But stayed with HSTs principles.

    At 43, I am now in my all-time best shape, and look better than most of the ex steroid-users of my age, who did use anabolics in the gyms i trained in The Hague, some 20-25 years ago, and who i still regularly see around. Some of them have already serious healthproblems!

    I enjoy training for the first time. Because HSt allows me to never go to failure, rarely experiencing the intense pain i had in the past after a workout and still seeing results, both in added musclemass and continuing strenght-gains.

    Summary: If you lovebodybuilding do it the right way: HST way, youll get results that last IF YOU ARE PATIENT AND STICK TO TRAINING AND A SOUND DIET.
    Twenty years ago i was envious of all the "big guys".
    Now i feel sorry for them.

    greetings from Holland
     
  14. BIZ

    BIZ New Member

    Ahhhh Andre, say it ain't so... [​IMG]
    I sensed a bit of a jab there concerning some of us who have chosen to use AAS (granted the quantity and duration I have used are miniscule compared to most), but your statements stung just the same. Had I thought that growth to the degree that would be noticeable were still possible for me, i would not have dabbled in AAS the last few months, but I know I was at my genetic ceiling and I did not like it there, so I did what I wanted to rise above it. I appreciate your candidness and honesty about the subject, but some of us did not take AAS too merely cheat, but to surpass what nature would give us.
     
  15. This post has the title "what´s your opinion of using steroids".

    Well, i just gave my opinion.

    Steroids turn against you, in the long run.
    eventually resulting in health problems or possibly growing dependant on them.

    i ve seen it happen a lot, at least to bodybuilders around here, in Holland, over the past two decades.

    That you want to surpass levels that nature gave you, is your good right. And you probably look fantastic at 250 lbs and a low bodyfatpercentage, and you deserve that with your devotion to training, proper food and supplements, and the additional steroids allowing you to grow further and further.

    I hope you will do well in bodybuilding, BIZ,
    as i hope you can understand my point of view.

    In the past two years i found out that two of my former training buddies in the Hague,( not even competing bodybuilders) died both as a result of heartattacks.( the one 37 years old the other 41) No heartdisease in their families, but they regularly ( probably yearround ) used steroids since their early twenties.
    Together with both of them I did watch Momo Benzaziza pose on the The Hague Congress Centre , winning the Dutch Grand Prix some 13 years ago, before Yates finally arrived on the scene. We were in shock hearing that Momo died a couple of hours later.

    André Mansveld.
     
  16. BIZ

    BIZ New Member

    Andre-
    I cetainly understand your point of view. It is one I shared for many years. God Bless...
     
  17. DrPhil

    DrPhil New Member

    Very interesting thread.
     
  18. xahrx

    xahrx New Member

    Just found this thread, and it's been interesting to read everyone's opinions. A couple of points I wanted to throw in:

    People are not more likely to use steroids if they're legal or not, same as any other drug. In countries with varying drug policies over a range of drugs, the legality of a drug doesn't seem to be correlated in any way with chronic use, only one time use seems to go up. That is, without the stigma of illegality more people take the attitude of trying anything once, and it turns out to be just that: once. There's always a core of chronic users of varying degrees that use drugs of any kind, and they're there regardless of legality.

    One of the major problems with AAS seems to be a lack of information and research into safer methods of use and outright alternatives to AAS. This I'd say is a result of their illegality. Once a substance is prohibited like AAS the majority of information readily available to the public is anecdotal, not scientific. The prohibitor, the government, has an interest in keeping hysteria high and actual information low. Also the illegality of the substance leads to black market risks because of the lack of quality controls, such as tainted substances and wildly variable doses and other such things. The illegality of the substance aggrevates the risks associated with it for a variety of reasons.

    And now I've got one more thought. Everyone wants some magic pill that they can take and get great results as far as fitness goes, with little or no work. In one sense, and especially for men AAS are essentially that magic pill. You've got to put in the work but you see the results quickly, and provided you take the necessary steps at the end of a cycle and keep your discipline about you can keep enough of the gains to make a noticable difference.

    My thoughts are that for someone just starting out AAS or something similar would be a great motivator. To see such results so early, I wonder how many people would keep going if they could just speed up the transition from poor physical fitness to good physical fitness, or even moderate. Instead of busting your @$$ at a gym for years just to make the transition you go for a few months and make the transition, and then just keep it up. That has massive appeal in our society, the quick fix. And, in the end when you weigh the possible risks of using AAS once or twice to jump start your drive toward your fitness goals and the risks of long term poor physcial health because people aren't motivated to stick with it because it takes so much dang work, it might be a positive to see them use AAS once or twice.

    The only problem I see with this thought, other than the obvious, is that if the results took no discipline to get, the person probably wouldn't be likely to keep them.

    I know a lot of people who give up because of the length of time and commitment needed to see even the most minimal results in improving their overall fitness, at least on a visual level. I wonder what AAS might do for them at the beginning of their journey.
     
  19. Guest

    Guest Guest

    hmmm I think its interesting that many of you say something like oh my god now theyre illegal and dangerous...but then they go home and use their prohormones and ephedrine...
    hmm whats again the differences between steroids and prohormones...? Not a huge...

    another interesting question would be: would you take steroids or think about them less negativ if they were legal?? take a look at prohormones and ephedrine (well not anymore) theyre illegal in the most parts of europe and if you asked a guy here about prohormones or ephedrine he would say exactly the same as you about steroids or clenbuterol OH NO MY GOD DANGEROUS AND ILLEGAL...

    its hardly ever the "product" thats really bad...I think more often its the lack of knowledge in the correct way of using it...
     
  20. well...I would if I could...but I can't...so I won't

    I would love it if my Dr. could put me on a dose that would help me out. But unfortunately at age 28...I don't see it happening.

    On the other hand...I'm a deputy sheriff...and tis the season in recent years for the higher ups to crack down on "dirty cops"

    And in case your wondering....by politician standards...a dirty cop would be anyone who does anything from drinking and driving to selling drugs...to....taking steroids of any kind.

    I know what a great amount of you are thinking and yes I too know several law enforcement personnel who have used and lots of them that use currently. But...I'm just not willing to take the risk. More importantly over me gaining muscle is me providing for the finanacial needs of my family...and trust me..if there was even a hint that I was taking them...I'd be drug into the Internal Affairs division and hammered with questions about the usage of it.

    In my mind...i believe it should be legalized...you can't argue that everyone would abuse it...because someone somewhere always abuses everything...from cough syrup (yes take enough of that stuff and you trip like your on acid) to alcohol to any drug (legal and illegal).

    So why not give it to the doctors to prescribe in doses that are on the lower level of scale and allow them to regulate it.

    Well that's my 10 cents on the subject. Big Brother government of course is out there to protect you...from yourselves that is....so much for the freedom of doing what you believe is best for yourself.

    On one last note....If someone is ignorant to dose themselves so much and so high that they blow out there internal organs...then Darwin has once again proved himself. How many people out there really feel bad if someone on heroine over doses and kills themself? I for sure am not one...not my fault they did something that stupid.
     

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