When to start cutting?

G

grunt11

New Member
Actually that’s more than one question and since I’ve already done the research I think I know the answers but am looking for some validation.

First most of what I’ve read say to start cutting at around 20% BF but not much point if below 15% if your goal, as mine is, to keep bulking and not contest or beach prep. Does that sound about right?

Second most of what I’m reading says to stick with heavy weights skipping the 15 and perhaps even the 10s and just cycling up from about 70-75% of your 5RM up to your 5RM and repeating. SD optional but may benefit from doing an SD (eating maintenance) due to satellite cell proliferation.

Based on my calipers my BF% is about 16%. Based on comparing myself to pictures in the BF estimation thread at the “Body Recomp” forum I’m about 15% so those jive. However, the baby, perhaps twins, that I feel like are growing in my belly tell me it’s a tad higher than that. ;) So I think the timing is right for a cut based on BF, unless someone can suggest why not.

So that leaves when in the cycle to start a cut. I’m about to enter what would be the equivalent of the second week of 10s (I’m using linier progression) would I gain anything from just finishing my cycle, doing an SD and then starting the cut. Or could I just roll from the “10s” into the “5s” starting the cut then.

The main factor pushing me to start now rather than 3-5 weeks from now is working outside in 110F+ temperature carrying an extra 32 lbs. from last year. I realize the extra muscle will still be “encumbering” (more to keep cool) but I was hoping that cutting some of the fat would make things easier on me. I figured that between cutting and acclimating I can get comfortable fairly quickly and then go back to bulking again.

Also I was considering kick-starting the cut with a PSMF and then rolling into UD2 or would I be better off just doing UD2. I’ve got some ideas but any suggestions on how to best incorporate that or another route altogether into my program is appreciated.

Note: I would have asked this at the “Body Recomp.” Forum but having spent the better part of the day reading threads over there I don’t find many of the answer are very useful, (i.e. “read the “F”ing book and/or arguments).
 
First of all... PSMF seems miserable, but it is way easier than UD2.0 in my opinion. Do you have the rapid fat loss book? If not, no big deal. I can pretty much tell you what to do. I had good success with the PSMF while only lifting 2 or max 3 times a week, doing cardio the other days. Once I got around 10%, I added in Lyle's stubborn fat protocol, but that's pretty hellish. You could probably get away with just a couple two week runs of PSMF back to back and be down to where you need to be. UD2.0 is much harder... the carb load sucks, the depletions suck, the diet is just miserable.

Also, with regards to the pregnancy... I know what you mean. I can have a relatively low bodyfat measured by calipers but my stomach is still distended. I blame visceral fat. The only way to really get rid of that is cardio while dieting.

As for your current cycle... if you are eager to get started with the cut, I would just start it now. Do 11-12 days of PSMF, then on day 13 earlier or late day 12 do a good 5s workout, then do a carb load similar to the UD2.0 carb load. After that, either eat at maintenance for a bit, or stretch the carb load out over a few days then restart the psmf then if you still feel you need to lose fat. The main thing is that after you are finally done with the PSMF, you'll definitely want to take a week or so at maintenance before you up the calories again.
 
If you decide to go with the psmf and need help detailing what to do for the diet, how much to eat, etc, let me know. I've already outlined and designed diets based on this for several people I know, so I'm getting rather pro with it.
 
Thanks Tote, I just read what you posted and based on my perceived need I think that one or two (11-12 day) PSMFs may be the best choice for me especially if I can still workout 2-3 times a week. I’ll pimp you for more info later as I have to run to my Dads place right now but thanks again for the quick feedback.
 
I have both “The Rapid Fat Loss Handbook” and “A Guide to Flexible Dieting.” Based on what I’m reading I’ve come up with the following so far.

Body weight: 172 lbs.
Exercise level: Category 1
BF%: about 18% (or category 2)
LBM: 141 lbs.
Protein: 1.25g/lb. LBM = 176g/day = 704 kCal
Maintenance calories: about 2752/day
Refeed Carbs: 4-6g/lb. LBM = 564 – 848g = 2256 – 3392 kCal

So now for the confusing part, exercising:

Drop to about 1/3 present total volume
Work in the 6-8 rep or about 80-85% of 1RM range
Workout 2-3 days a week (I’m looking at 2)
Do refeeds on exercise days: (he says if you’re lifting heavy to do 2 refeeds a week even if you’re a cat 2 dieter because of the workout intensity)


Summing it up I get

Diet days = 176g protein +EFAs = about 750 kCal or maintenance - 2000
Workout days (2/week) = 176g protein + EFSs + 564g carbs = about 3006 kCal or maintenance + 254
Net change is about (250 * 2) – (2000 * 5) = - 9,500 kCal/week or about 2 2/3 lbs. (not counting any additional cardio yet so probably closer to 3 lbs./week)

Does that sound about right or do you see something I should change based on your experience with it. Also any tweaks that might help are appreciated.

Note that my goal is not to get ripped but only to drop some BF to both be more comfortable working out in the heat and to prep for another bulking cycle. I will probably gauge my success based on how pregnant I am and how I feel in the heat rather than just skin fold measurements since they don’t seem to tell the whole BF story for me.

Also, do you have any suggestions on type of cardio? I think I read that doing some HIIT to mobilize fat followed by some moderate steady state to burn it was the best strategy for getting at stubborn fat.
 
I would guess after your first run you will be down to category one, in which case once you get there you won't get the refeed... and you'll have to up the protein to 1.5 to 2 x lean lbs. Honestly, if it were me, I would just go with the category 1 recommendations since you're pretty close to cat 1 anyway. Lyle even says in the book that the categories should be more of a continuum than clear cut divisions. But if you've never done this diet before, then a category 2 would be good to get accustomed to the way the diet works.

The cardio you describe is basically lyle's stubborn fat protocol. I wouldn't bother doing that during a category 2 run. Just do whatever cardio you would normally do. Really the SFP cardio is for 10% or lower when you are trying to get rid of stubborn fats. You likely don't need to do that, so why put yourself through it? Of course on the other hand, it might be good for getting rid of visceral adipose tissue.
 
I was wondering about just doing category 1 but wasn’t sure. I did a short 5 day PSMF of about 1,200 kCal right after I finished my last cycle to see how it felt. I actually had no problems with 5 days, no cravings and energy levels seemed ok but then I didn’t work out during that time.

So it’s ok to do a heavy workout without following it with a refeed? So I guess the idea of the workout is not to rebuild any lost muscle but to just make it want to hang around?

Thanks for the info about the cardio HIIT isn’t really my cup of tea.
 
Yup, I did two to three workouts when I did it, no carbs before or after and I was fine. I also did cardio close to five times a week. I kept the volume on my workouts fairly low. Are you good on food choices? Not a lot you can eat and that makes it hard for some people. The big struggle for me was getting enough protein. I probably ate several gallons worth of fat free cottage cheese...
 
I just filled one shelf of my fridge with fat free cottage cheese and liquid egg whites. I also bought a crap load of light tuna in water.
I pretty much eat the same things every day except for dinner (the meal I have after work which is usually around 11:30 PM) so having limited choices doesn’t present much of a problem on work days. I am however worried about days off when I watch movies and play video games and always seem to get the muchies. I bought a bunch of frozen broccoli and a few other “light” veggies in hopes that will tide me over. However, I’ve generally found that if I stick to a mostly “liquid” (read blender) diet I actually don’t get an empty feeling in my gut because I actually get use to not eating much.

How did you gauge whether to do 2 or 3 workouts? Just based on how you felt or did you just do something like work out every 3rd day.
 
I just did it based on feel. I would go to the gym after having done two workouts and if I felt like doing weights, I'd lift, otherwise I just did cardio.

If you don't mind spinach, that works pretty well as a stand in for potato chips. I just get a bag of raw spinach leaves and eat them like chips. I also have a decent recipe for a protein cake that is close to zero carbs depending on what kind of protein power you use, you can make a decent frosting for it by throwing some FF cottage cheese in a blender with a scoop of whey, some splenda and a little vanilla extract. I'll dig up the recipe if I can.

Tuna is what I used my first time around, second time around I bought some turkey burgers and added those in. I also managed to make a very low carb sort of BBQ sauce and then crock potted some chicken all day, shredded it and used that sauce on it. Might be worth a try. I agree though, the days off from work are the hardest.

Something that can help take you through each day is to make massive omelets in the morning. I use about a cup of egg whites then throw one yolk in there, then load it up with FF american cheese, spinach, whatever other green veggies and a little bit of meat. That is quite filling.
 
About workout volume/frequency Lyle McDonald mentions in several different places, not just his diet books, that when working out for maintenance, not growth, you can do about 1/3 the volume and frequency. I’m wondering what your opinion on which is more important when fasting, volume or frequency.

Right now I’m planning to do a full body workout every other day but with about a 1/3 of my normal volume for the weight, or about 6-7 reps vs. 20 reps. Do you think 6-7 reps is sufficient to signal my body to retain muscle at 80-85% or 1RM or should I be doing more. Note that I am doing Flat Bench and Seated Incline Shoulder Press plus Chin Ups and Rows so I guess effectively I’m doing more like 12-14 reps on those. However, for lower body I only did the 6 reps and am especially wondering if I should up the reps here.
 
That's about how many reps I would get on my working sets. Generally 5-8 reps or so. I would do warmups first, of course. I think that you will be doing plenty of volume.
 
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