Another Dead WWE Wrestler

[Jester]

xahrx - I'd expand that to "typical American/Western lifestyle" - throw in recreational drugs, alcoholism and lack of exercise to the macronutrient diet.

Additional $0.02:

Steroids in a system that cops a lot of physical abuse, rec. drugs, likely some alcohol, prob. a fair bit of mental stress over the years (noteveryone deals with celebrity well, let alone their job) has to have a toll on the liver, CV systems (and others). An autopsy report might be helpful - state of his organs etc...before we start labelling one particular culprit.

 

[jvroig]

There already was, and it was also posted on this thread (4th post)

Quote[/b] ]After the untimely passing of Eddie Guerrero, WWE and the entire sports-entertainment community is steel reeling from the devastating loss of a champion. The initial autopsy reports on Guerrero have come in. WWE.com spoke with Eddie’s widow, Vickie Guerrero, earlier today.

“It was heart failure. It was from his past – the drinking and the drug abuse. They found signs of heart disease. She (the examiner) said that the blood vessels were very worn and narrow, and that just showed all the abuse from the scheduling of work and his past. And Eddie just worked out like crazy all the time. It made his heart grow bigger and work harder and the vessels were getting smaller, and that’s what caused the heart failure. He went into a deep sleep.

As soon as they saw his heart, they saw the lining of his heart already had the heart disease. There was no trauma, and Eddie hadn’t hurt himself in any way. It answered a lot of questions. I knew Eddie wasn’t feeling very good for the last week. He was home and kept saying he wasn’t feeling good and we thought it was just “road tired.” So we thought he just had to rest. It answered a lot of my questions, too, because he was just so exhausted. She said it was normal because the heart was working so hard.

 

[thehamma]

First of all I'm really sick of hearing the there hasn't been a single long term study done on steroids to conclusively determine that "steroids" are harmful. There have been hundreds of articles published of the detrimental effects of steroids.

If you would like to have a logical debate about steroids, saying that the average american diet, smoking, or jumping off a bridge is more likely to kill you than steroids is what is called "changing the subject with irrelevant facts". If you would like to debate why a lot of atheletes die of heart, kidney, or liver complications at a premature age, than dont dillute the focus by pointing out what is more likely to be unhealthy. Yes it is true that an unhealthy diet and smoking cigarattes will definitley lead to health risks and most likely death.

The issue of Arnold having genetic predispostion to having heart problems is crap. Yea, so did Mike and Ray Mentzer, and apparently every other athlete that has complications from using steriods. All of these guys have health issues, take a look at the anniversary edition of Pumping Iron. These guys look like death. Take a look at Mike Katz and Ken Waller, they look like they died and forgot to lay down.

The bottom line here is that in athletics, especially high profile cases in which a persons entire career depends on perfomance or their appearance, there is a high likelyhood for them to abuse steroids.

Can steroids be used safely? Possibly. Thats not my point, my point is that bodybuilders, pro wrestlers, and pro atheltes absolutley abuse steroids, and will have health complications from them just like the guys before them.

Jvroig does the fact that Lee Preist had a heart attack from overdosing on sterioids and insulin and was nearly killed before entering the Mr.O 2 years ago have to be published in a scientific journal before you believe that steroid abuse exists? Oh thats right, his father had a heart condition too, yea ok.

Are you living on Mars, to not know anyone that has adverse effects from steroids. I know at least 50 people. No exaggeration, thats actually a modest number.

Quote[/b] ]It must be nice living in a fantasy world guys, but I'll rather live in the real world where science rules, not fantasy and myth.

Actually I dont live in a fantasy world, I live in a world in which i realize that steroids are very potent drugs, which can cause health risks. In the same token can also help a lot of people, but like all other powerful drugs can be abused. I think it is you who is denying science and empirical evidence.

This is my last post on this thread, because i think anyone who doesnt recognize that steroid abuse exists is either in denial or is retarded.

thehamma

 

[lcars]

good post! nuff said i think.

 

[Jester]

Any info on his liver?

And narrowing/worn arteries, (cardiac disease in general) cannot be directly & solely attributed to steroid use.

Concentric cardiac hypertrophy (heart getting bigger) happens to anyone(99%) with chronic hypertension.

Steroids are likely a PART of the problem...but fingers should be pointed at alcohol, using your body as a human missile, rec. drugs etc.

 

[Fausto]

Guys

Have some of you forgotten to keep discussions sane on the forum?

What the hell is this insulting business all about, darn, we have different opinions, in fact we are all different, why bash each other

I agree with JV in the sense that if steroids are used in a sane manner probably will be fine, the problem is that there are some studies that link heavy steroid usage with various organ problems, beware I did not say failure, neither did I say this wqs teh case with Guerrero.

Fine, pharmaceuticals are responsible for alot more of these deaths in case some of you were not aware, and the FDA is well at fault for not having some of these matters under control! VIOXX seems to be shouting at me from the recesses of my memory

But, lets get one thing startight, this is a forum for discussion and mostly scientific, so if someone has the facts, lets have it so we can scrutinize it! I don't so...I will not go on with the discussion....just stop making this site like so many other BS, BB sites out there

 

[jvroig]

The real problem with this discussion is the "steroid-phobic" or "anti-steriod crusade" attitude. Once someone dies, who is suspected to have used steroids, they point the finger to steroids. Immediately. Despite the galring fact of a lot of other greater factors.

Wow. That's scientific.

Can overdosing (meaning regularly taking an overdose of) steroids kill you? dang right. Dude, almost everything can kill you or cause a lot of serious complications if you take (or regularly take) an overdose of it. Even multivitamins - I remember from grade 3 or grade 4, if you regularly take an overdose of vitamins, a lot of them can cause certain conditions and complications.

An overdose isn't what the argument is about. No duh. What started it is the fingerpointing, the negative and uneducated attitude towards steroids - all one has to do is mention steroids and some people throw a fit and shout "BAD!!!!". That's what we are out to avoid. Evidently, some people just don't learn.

But I'm not surprised this happened in this thread. Even in the old steroid thread, where a ton of other people educated in steroids and their physiological effects shared their knowledge (even Bryan Haycock himself was there), I believe it was almost the same guys as here who caused a stink. And just like here, they countered science with... with their beliefs.

This discussion will obviously not be enlightening for anybody.

Yep, Fausto, let's go to some other thread where it would be worth our time. No using butting heads with brick walls. Let's go back to your training log or something.

 

[Spyke]

When I started this thread, my basic point is what the hell is happening with these guys? As a kid my brother and I would watch wrestling all the time, we even met Big John Studd (who is now dead) and several other big names at the time.

Here is the thing, I bet that half the guys we used to watch wrestle in the 80's are now dead. Alot of them just literally drop dead. Now granted that can happen in rare cases but it seems to happen ALOT in wrestling circles. I am sure that alot of them were on painkillers, coke and god knows what else in addition to the roids. But something is going on here..

As far as the steroids, one of the reasons I found this site (thank God) is because I got tired of the steroid users on the other boards. I just don't see the point in getting involved with them. For most of us the reason we work out is to become healthy and strong and maintain that for life. I'm not going to put something in my body that may or may not kill me so that I can look a little bigger at the beach, just not worth it to me. People die from asprin, most people can take asprin every day and live to be 100 but some take it once and start to bleed inside. What would make anyone thing steroids would be different? Some may be able to handle it but many wont. My cousin is 5'8 with 19" biceps and benches 420 for 4 reps. A year ago he was fairly normal sze. His forehead has also grown alot in the last year. Naturally, I am very concerned.

Sorry to rant guys but when I see posts where guys start to say steroids are really no big deal, that concerns me. I am 33 years old with 2 kids so I try not to do anything to hurt my health but what about the skinny 17 year old who thinks he will never die, when he reads this stuff and starts ordering crap online and injecting himself?

 

[Fausto]

Spyke

As a last resort I just want to add this:

Steroids (synthetic version) were first developed for use as medication, in cases where people need it due to lack of natural production for normal bodily function.

Old & Grey - unfortunately he is not on site anymore, because of a similar thread to this, thus the reason I am calling the guys to slow down so as to avoid causing us to loose other valuable people, or getting childish nevertheless.

He was taking an additional quantity of steroids (he was around 60 or so) but this was medically checked and just enough to get him in a healthy state. So even if you are taking it to enhance a particular sport and you do it under the careful eye of a trained doctor, then it is fine, as it is controlled, unless of course it is not a doctor or a vet but more like a "medicine man"

As you said, and rightly so, people die from abuse of many different medications

Wrestlers, well, they have reckless lives if you ask me, the sport itself WWE or RAW, is actually gotten to a sick point where guys are getting out of control using chairs, stairs, etc to bash each other, that is to me well past the point of sanity

Like that no wonder the guys end up dying, after all we could also say that Ali got alzeimers from too much "head bashing", but the reports will never prove it, it is kind ofa compounded effect.

However, when guys take extreme quantities of steroids there are consequences such as nasty side effects, but what is the big difference to other medicines? Have you ever taken the time to check for instance the list of side effects on the insert of a high blood pressure tablet, its huge, and if you'd like as dangerous or more so than steroids.

I think that is what JV was trying to point out, steroids can and should be used to correct otherwise unconfortable medical situations.

If you are worried about your kids, educate them the best you can with scientific knowledge so that when confronted with such stuff, they can in turn educate others and make their educated decisions, no opffense and I am sure that you will do that, after all you did not bash anyone, anyway.

Your concern is somewhat valid, but as you can see from the report, it cannot be proven.

I have a report from Jon Benson, who works with Tom Venuto, that say he is on steroids as he found out through blood work that he was short of it in excess and guess what he is now very healthy, I can believe it, it has been medically proven

Hey, enough rambling

enjoy your Christmasses and thanksgiving!

Ciao

 

[Jester]

Quote[/b] ]Here is the thing, I bet that half the guys we used to watch wrestle in the 80's are now dead. Alot of them just literally drop dead. Now granted that can happen in rare cases but it seems to happen ALOT in wrestling circles. I am sure that alot of them were on painkillers, coke and god knows what else in addition to the roids. But something is going on here..

The beat each other up....day in, day out....

 

[mostlyallan]

Can I just reiterate a point in that I never read anywhere that Eddie had a steroid problem - just a DRUG problem. As far as I'm aware, the drugs were PAIN KILLERS. Now, if someone can bring a quote saying it was steroids or the like then fine, I'll be quiet. I just think it would be bad to judge a dead man incorrectly - especially with the stigma that, as we can see, steroids have.

 

[Jester]

No judgement re: steroids.

Take a look at his physique...surely been juicing @ some point.

 

[Totentanz]

I don't know why people get so worked up over steroids. Everyone should know that there is a difference between drug abuse and drug use. This guy was obviously someone with no self control. All the other drugs he was taking likely took a toll on his system, I'm sure his steroid ABUSE also didn't help, seeing as how it has negative effects on lipids, liver values, etc (hmm kinda like alcohol and all the other drugs he was abusing?) but to point to steroids as the main culprit is just silly.

The culprit behind this man's death was his lack of responsibility and self control. You can blame the drugs, the alcohol or the steroids, but be honest with yourself. Lots of people drink responsibly every day and they don't die from the alcohol. Therefore it isn't the alcohol that is the monster here, it is the person who cannot stop. Same thing with the steroids. Steroids have a legitimate use, but if you abuse them, then they will be detrimental to your system.

If steroids really were so horrible, why on earth would doctors prescribe them to people?? Why would there be so many studies showing the benefits of steroids, especially in older men who have less testosterone?

Let's be sensible here.

 

[Fausto]

Agree 100%, Tot.

I think it is high time we shut this thread down unless someone has anything valuable to add.

 

[Joe G]

Quote[/b] ] Steroids have a legitimate use, but if you abuse them, then they will be detrimental to your system.

Quote[/b] ]Agree 100%, Tot.

Fausto, interesting that you agree with Totentanz 100% but you disagree with the hamma when he makes the exact same point.

From the begining of this thread icars and the hamma have tried to make a point that there is a difference between steroid use and abuse. Jvroig apparently doesnt believe in drug abuse so you had to agree with him. It took Totentanz to make a post in order for you to finally admit that their is such thing as drug abuse.

Dont be affraid to make statements or have beliefs that might disagree with your buddies on the forum.

Joe G

 

[lcars]

edited due to alcohol abuse.

 

[wwewrestlingguy]

Like I said before and like neebone said, I'm not even sure that he was on steroids. He definitely had an incredible body, but I've seen natural guys bigger than that. I have nothing to prove that he didn't take them, but I don't think anyone here has anything to prove that he did. Triple H is an example of a natural guy that's bigger. And I think it's unfair for tot to be calling him irresponsible. He made mistakes with drug abuse, mainly painkillers, in the past, but at the time of his death he had been clean for four years. Eddie is a man that I respected highly and I'm still adjusting to the fact that he's gone. I think this whole thread is ridiculous... people are getting all worked up over steroids, but the bigger issue in this particular thread is that people seem very judging of Eddie Guerrero. He was one of the best people in the world, and after the drugs and all that, he turned around and was in fact a very responsible human being.

 

[Fausto]

Joe

Here's a point I agree with the hamma:'

Quote[/b] ]Can steroids be used safely? Possibly. Thats not my point, my point is that bodybuilders, pro wrestlers, and pro athletes absolutley abuse steroids, and will have health complications from them just like the guys before them.

This is a well known fact and we are not disagreeing with this point anyways

This however is a sarcastic remark and unnecessary:

Quote[/b] ]After all its healthy to be on an insane amount of steroids, for extended periods of time- like your entire life

This point has no relevance to anyone's knowledge of the subject, and some of us have taken the home gym route, firstly because of necessity or family life, or because we did not want to stand and argue with these very people he is referring to, over a simple bench press or whatever other exercise or to wait up until one of these "monkeys" has finished is 10 x 10 routine as we blieve HST is about using up time and exercise efficiently.

Quote[/b] ] I'm not sure whether or not you guys mostly train at home or in a gym.

Honestly, IMHO, anyone of the people who got involved in this thread and may have "ruffled someone's feathers" has enough knowledge of the subject, but is not claiming to be a subject matter expert.

Quote[/b] ]And will have a firm grasp on reality that side effects, including death are not a myth or wives tales, or bullshit by misinformed society but rather facts, which you should consider if you decide to use "the steroids".

This is "below the belt" as we all know about drug abuse, IMO, some of us might have "brushed" with that life before, but then as you say made a turn around afterwards.

Quote[/b] ]Jvroig apparently doesnt believe in drug abuse so you had to agree with him. It took Totentanz to make a post in order for you to finally admit that their is such thing as drug abuse.

This is the reason why I got involved in the thread again, as we all know that many guys here are absolutely "holistic" about these subjects, furthermore, becoming personal is unnecesary and obnoxious

Lats but not least, we should let Guerrero and his family alone, and lets us just say we agree to disagree.

Quote[/b] ]Dont be affraid to make statements or have beliefs that might disagree with your buddies on the forum.

Honestly, what is that all about? What is the point, I have disagreed wioth these guys before buddies or not. I think you are somewhat off track making statements like that dude!

Again I remind you that we have lost some real nice people in the forum because of inflamatory statements

Hope we get this thing settled soon, lest we have to incvolvwe the Bryan here to just end the thread once and for all!

 

[Aaron_F]

Quote[/b] (xahrx @ Nov. 24 2005,2:52)]But since there has yet to be more than a few deaths even possibly linked to steroids as a direct cause, and considering the numbers of people who die every year from no exercise and a steady diet of McDonalds and deep fried everything, I'd say it's a safe bet the typical American diet kills more people than steroids ever have or will.

Possibly is the major word. I doubt if there is any case showing steroids are the sole cause of death in any subject. Potential addition factor possibly but if anyone thinks that steroids are direct causes of death they need to step away from the stupid

 

[Aaron_F]

Quote[/b] (thehamma @ Nov. 24 2005,6:25)]The issue of Arnold having genetic predispostion to having heart problems is crap. Yea, so did Mike and Ray Mentzer, and apparently every other athlete that has complications from using steriods.

How do steroids cause Arnolds heart condition? a mechanistic problem with the aortic valve that his father suffered as well? or did steroids cause his fathers issues as well? and using mike and ray mentzer as proof of anything is retarded, as both were common drunks nad recreational drug users? maybe steroids make you an alcoholic?

Quote[/b] ]All of these guys have health issues, take a look at the anniversary edition of Pumping Iron. These guys look like death. Take a look at Mike Katz and Ken Waller, they look like they died and forgot to lay down.

How many people of the same age have you followed for this in depth analysis? how did you control for all other factors that may influence their current health? or are you somehow using some psychic powers to predict things?

Quote[/b] ]The bottom line here is that in athletics, especially high profile cases in which a persons entire career depends on perfomance or their appearance, there is a high likelyhood for them to abuse steroids.

wow. A lot of high level athletes also do a pile of other things that will influence their long term health. Elite sports is not healthy from any perspective. Blaming steroids for everyhting is myopic.

Quote[/b] ]Can steroids be used safely? Possibly.

Not just possibly

Quote[/b] ] Thats not my point, my point is that bodybuilders, pro wrestlers, and pro atheltes absolutley abuse steroids, and will have health complications from them just like the guys before them.

Pro athletes, bbrs and wrestlers abuse a darn site more drugs than just steroids. Recretational drugs, alcohol, painkillers, sedatives etc.

Quote[/b] ]Jvroig does the fact that Lee Preist had a heart attack from overdosing on sterioids and insulin and was nearly killed before entering the Mr.O 2 years ago have to be published in a scientific journal before you believe that steroid abuse exists?

Including insulin in the same sentance as steroids shows your complete niaviety with steroids. Insulin can kill you acutely, nearly instantly if you screw up. Steroids are amazingly safe acutely. But interms of Lee, wheres the evidence for what he suffered and what caused it? not a muscle comic book, but something that includes doses of drugs used, what drugs used etc etc etc, a pathway for them to cause whatever lee suffered (i mena, just becuase lee is well known for being on one of the lowest levels of drugs in the pro bbing field has nothing to do with it, or the fact that he gains upwards to 100lbs in the offseason. they have nothing to do with any health concerns at all do they. because we all know nobody suffers heart conditions if they are fat, its only if they use steroids. How do steroids cause heart disease again? you seem to know)

Quote[/b] ]Are you living on Mars, to not know anyone that has adverse effects from steroids.

I know people who have adverse events from eating peanuts, far more common that ANY steroid related issues.

Quote[/b] ] I know at least 50 people. No exaggeration, thats actually a modest number.

Did they tell you steroids caused their issues? or did you connect 1:1 to make 5?

Quote[/b] ]Actually I dont live in a fantasy world, I live in a world in which i realize that steroids are very potent drugs, which can cause health risks.

No you seem to live in a world that repeats the same old concerns about steroids without any evidence base on them. You also seem to be in the view that steroids are one item, rather than a complex collection of different compounds that offer different risk reward ratios, but hey, not in a fantasy world.

Quote[/b] ]In the same token can also help a lot of people, but like all other powerful drugs can be abused.

ANYTHING can cause issues if abused.

Quote[/b] ]I think it is you who is denying science and empirical evidence.

Show us. THere is plenty of scietifically valid items out there, and jsut so you know, case reports or even case series are worthless examples of scientific evidence, as are all anecdotes.

Quote[/b] ]This is my last post on this thread, because i think anyone who doesnt recognize that steroid abuse exists is either in denial or is retarded.
thehamma

yep, now show us your evidence, or does sticking your head into the sand make you more knowledgable?

(note: i am not saying steroids are a fluffy bunny of drugs with no potential negative effects at all, however they are nowhere near as deadly as some make out. Spend a few hours going through the available data on pubmed (or any other database) and look at the actual articels, maybe spend a while actually critically analysing the results from the studies and onewards. It paints a critically different picture to the common garbage propagated by the media, government etc etc etc.)