Are 5's really necessary?

C

ChuckGrill

New Member
When i used to do HST a couple of years back I remember really benefiting from the 15's and the 10's but nothing from doing 5 reps other than hurting myself.

And today, while figuring out my mxes on 5's I hurt my shoulder again. Good thing I'm heading for SD now.

So, does everyone do 5's or do people have variations on this? My body does seem to benefit greatly from 15's and 10's though. I'm wondering if I should either just do those or perhaps only go down to like 7 or 8 reps instead.

What's everyone's thought?
 
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(ChuckGrill @ Aug. 03 2006,12:55)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So, does everyone do 5's or do people have variations on this?  My body does seem to benefit greatly from 15's and 10's though.  I'm wondering if I should either just do those or perhaps only go down to like 7 or 8 reps instead.</div>
I'm kind of ambivalent when it comes to the 5's. I think low reps are great for increasing strength, so they benefit me in that respect. They sure do tear up the joints though. After doing the 5's with &quot;5 board close grip bench presses&quot; for my tris, my elbows are shot again, just like they were before picking up HST. It takes 100 days for the tendons to rebuild collagen, so I'm tired of messing around with heavy iso exercises. I'll at least limit the 5's to compound exercises.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I'll at least limit the 5's to compound exercises</div>

That's what I was thinking but I really hate not doing tris and bis though.
 
Are you guys kidding? If I could only keep one rep range from a standard HST cycle, it would be the 5s. As long as you listen to your body regarding joint health and you eat enough, it will result in better gains than the 10s or 15s because you are using a higher load. Load is the primary stimulus for hypertrophy, remember.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">As long as you listen to your body regarding joint health and you eat enough</div>

Well, that's the thing; I am listening to my body and it's telling me that 5's are hurting my joints
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. And, unfortunately eating doesn't do anything for that. But at 45 years old i'm not feeling the same benefits i'm feeling with 10's and 15's. So I figured I'd ask.
 
I'm going to have to back up Totentanz...

Granted, there is nothing magical about 5s. It is the relative weight that is offering benefit, not the low number of reps.

So, in theory as long as you can consistantly increase the amount of weight you are using, you could stop at 8 or 6 or whatever.

Back in the day, Boris had to stop at 8s on many of his lifts because the weight was simply too high. He got his lifts up really high on HST. He just didn't want to risk tearing anything.

For me, having lifted for decades, I have to use 5s or I simply can't elicit a strong enough stimulus.

At the same time, my shoulders are on the rikity side so I generally do not load up the weight as high on shoulders. Instead I rely on heavy chest/back to load my shoulders. Then I lighten it up considerably with laterals etc.
 
Ok, so in other words, you're saying that for compound movements I should probably stick to the weight I can lift 5 times and for minor musclegroups (like bis and tris) I could limit the weight to where I can do 8 reps?

If so, what will this do muscle shape-wise? I'm not going for full cut-like definition but I do want a good amount of muscle shaping. And I've found that hitting musclegroups 3 times per week has benefited me the most.

What I don't want is to have my body look out of proportion. But i really felt nothing for shoulders, bis and tris when doing a weight I could only lift 5 times. My chest, back, and legs were fine and seemed to love it, though.
 
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(Totentanz @ Aug. 03 2006,14:10)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> As long as you listen to your body regarding joint health</div>
That's precisely what we're doing
 
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(ChuckGrill @ Aug. 03 2006,14:45)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Ok, so in other words, you're saying that for compound movements I should probably stick to the weight I can lift 5 times and for minor musclegroups (like bis and tris) I could limit the weight to where I can do 8 reps?

If so, what will this do muscle shape-wise?  I'm not going for full cut-like definition but I do want a good amount of muscle shaping.  And I've found that hitting musclegroups 3 times per week has benefited me the most.  

What I don't want is to have my body look out of proportion.  But i really felt nothing for shoulders, bis and tris when doing a weight I could only lift 5 times.  My chest, back, and legs were fine and seemed to love it, though.</div>
Alot of people talk about muscle shaping. I don't believe it's possible to shape a muscle. You can make the muscle larger and stronger, or lose fat around it, but you can't change it's shape. For instance, I'll never have the 'tennis ball' shape biceps like arnold and so many other pros today have. Just not in my genetic makeup.

My problem is joints, your problem seems to be rotator cuffs maybe. You can strengthen your rotator cuff with various exercises which might help them on 5's with compound exercises. If I were you, I'd never skip 5's for squats/benching/deadlifts
 
Point taken, Steve. Thanks.

What I mean by &quot;shaping&quot; was moreso separation. If that makes sense. I've read it described as such on other boards. And i would prefer to keep the amount of weight I use for 5's in order to stay within the confines of HST, so if I can adjust the weight for shoulders, bis and tris in order to lighten the load on their particular joints then that'll work. Because once I hit bis and tris was when I found the pain.
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If joints are a serious problem, you should look into your form or into other lifts which won't cause the joint issues. Fish oils help with joints a bit as well. In fact, I find that fats in general help keep my joints lubricated, but that's just some anecdotal stuff on my end, I don't have any thing to prove it to you. If you are keeping fats at less than 20% of your caloric intake, that could be part of the issue. At least 25-30% seems to be the sweet spot for me. When bulking and hitting the weights real hard, I sometimes go up to 40% of my calorie intake as fats.
 
Ok, then I'll look into fish oil. I see it a lot when I buy supplements so I'll buy it next time. Thanks, Totentanz.

Ok, so to wrap up this thread, What's being suggested is to keep the 5's primarily for compound movements and reduce the weight for shoulders (if necessary) and bi/ tris.

I just want to make sure I got all the info correct.

Thanks everyone!
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I'll at least limit the 5's to compound exercises.</div>
That's what I have been doing lately. I use arm isolations up to (and including) the 5's, but drop them during the post-5's. I've been extending the post-5's for about a month now, and my joints are fine. It seems that really heavy skullcrushers and bicep curls tend to irritate my elbows. My routine now is pretty simple, basically compounds only for chest, back, legs and shoulders, plus an isolation here and there for metabolic work and abs. But my joints are really fine.

I would never drop the 5's though. As Totentanz said, if I was to keep only one rep range, that would be the 5's. I believe they are really necessary for natural lifters.

Regards,
Dimitris
 
I've not made any gains in the 15s (two cycles now) which I attribute to diet. My gains always start in the 10s, and last through the post 5s.

Since the key to hypertrophy is progressive load, I can't think of any way to stay in the 10s, once you've reached your max. You could if you switch to the max-stim technique, but I'm assuming you use the normal rep/set scheme that most folks do.
 
I'm a little surprised by the responses. There's nothing magic about &quot;5's.&quot; And it's hard to progress with injuries.

If something is hurting you and slowing your progress, it doesn't matter how helpful it is to others.

Nothing in the HST principals says you can't substitute 8's or 7's. The bottom line is progression.

I say try it and let us know.
 
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(Totentanz @ Aug. 03 2006,15:27)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">&quot;If joints are a serious problem, you should look into your form or into other lifts which won't cause the joint issues.&quot;</div>
Check back with me in 20 years and see if you still believe that.
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Isolation exercises just kill my joints when I go heavy enough to only do 5 reps, and certain compounds (like military presses and squats) do the same thing. Similar to what Old and Grey does, I simply keep my reps higher for those exercises. Bench presses, pulldowns, etc ... Heavy 5s are great. When you get older you have to make compromises ... It isn't a form or diet issue. Check out what Bryan says about his own shoulders.
 
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(ChuckGrill @ Aug. 03 2006,14:26)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">As long as you listen to your body regarding joint health and you eat enough</div>

Well, that's the thing; I am listening to my body and it's telling me that 5's are hurting my joints
wink.gif
. And, unfortunately eating doesn't do anything for that. But at 45 years old i'm not feeling the same benefits i'm feeling with 10's and 15's. So I figured I'd ask.</div>
Have you considered the possibility that your form sucks?

This may sound harsh, but based on my experience in an actual gym the past year, 99% of people are using pretty atrocious form. And dipping into lower reps probably would hurt them.
 
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(leegee38 @ Aug. 03 2006,18:55)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Totentanz @ Aug. 03 2006,15:27)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">&quot;If joints are a serious problem, you should look into your form or into other lifts which won't cause the joint issues.&quot;</div>
Check back with me in 20 years and see if you still believe that.
biggrin.gif
Isolation exercises just kill my joints when I go heavy enough to only do 5 reps, and certain compounds (like military presses and squats) do the same thing. Similar to what Old and Grey does, I simply keep my reps higher for those exercises. Bench presses, pulldowns, etc ... Heavy 5s are great. When you get older you have to make compromises ... It isn't a form or diet issue. Check out what Bryan says about his own shoulders.</div>
Bad form is very often the culprit, and there's literally no way of knowing unless we check his form.

Some lifts are more technical (e.g. squats, deadlifts) than people generally understand.

I don't think it's insulting to make sure people ARE using proper form.

That said, I could see a problem with very heavy weights for certain isolation exercises, and the 'confine 5's to compounds (that don't hurt you)' philosophy should work just fine.

As others have said, it's about progressive overload over time. Even if you stick to 'lighter' weights, as long as they increase over time, you're pretty much covered (within reason).
 
Also, I'm now of the opinion that most arm isolation stuff is next to useless.

Dipping into heavy curls (even with strict form) invariable DOES hurt my wrists/forearms, for example.

And I honestly believe that getting very strong at full range of motion heavy weighted chins will do far more for your biceps than any amount of curls ever could.

Heavy pressing exercises tending to do the same for one's triceps.
 
The main point guys here is Progressive load.

To a degree it doesn't matter...but you can't pick up a 5 oz soup can this week and then 10 oz next week and expect to see results.

I would say you would have to lift somewhere in the ball park of 60% of you 1 rep max...regardless of the reps.

Then make progression...which you should be able to do.

If weights get to the point you can't lift any heavier....SD.

There are all kinds of ways to do more work though!
 
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