Are 5's really necessary?

You can make progress and take care of your joints simultaneously.  If anyone is hardcore about heavy weights, it's me.  In the past I have used several different strength programs, and they all focused on moving heavy weight.  My joints have suffered from it too.  

What has killed them are iso exercises like skullcrushers, high board presses (5-7 boards, which is an iso exercise for tris), preacher curls, seated tricep presses, etc. etc.   It's just a hunch, but I think that this might occur because when you do iso exercises, and you become fatigued, you don't have any other muscles to take an extra part of the load, and are only left with your tendons (?
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)

Anyway, it's not always an issue of form.  Tell me how your elbows feel after pushing up to 465 lbs for 5 reps on a high board bench press for 2 weeks.  Even though you progress up to that weight, it still takes a big toll.  Unless you are blessed with 9" wrists and elbows that are 18" around (and, some guys are actually like that..lucky sob's), your tendons are going to hurt.  Also, the guy who made the statement of "see how you feel in 20 yrs" makes an awesome point.  As you age, tendons degenerate quicker than muscle.   As strength increases and/or you get older, working around joint pain is something that everyone has to do at some point, unless you are very gifted.
 
The last cycle I did (my fourth) I got very little joint pain compared with my first two. The third was better than the first two but was standard length. The fourth I extended as my joints were still happy. Some of this I put down to getting used to heavier loads but I also can't help but think that the flax and fish oils are helping a fair bit too. I only started taking them during the first cycle.

Steve: Interesting comment that "it takes 100 days for the tendons to rebuild collagen." I'd like to read up on this, so if you know of any on-line articles that discuss it I'd love to hear. TIA.

Bryan said this about Boris discontinuing with 5s and using 8s: <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">&quot;He got his lifts up really high on HST. He just didn't want to risk tearing anything.&quot;</div>
So, does this imply that, once you get to a certain level of strength, that low reps (eg. 5s) are more likely to cause muscle tears? Why does it become more likely that the muscle will tear if you have been progressing for some time to reach a certain load? ie. If my 5RM for an exercise is 100lbs and Boris' is 200lbs why is he more likely to tear a muscle?

My recent experience with a, thankfully, minor muscle tear was that it wasn't just the load but also the number of reps (the amount of work done with the load) that caused the problem. If I had stopped at 2 sets I would have been fine. The third set, using the same load, caused the tear. The tearing occured when I was at about a half-way contraction and not in the fully stretched position (but perhaps it began in the fully stretched position and I wasn't yet aware of it?).

I'm not sure that ananalogy can be made here? but it seems a bit like a situation where you have some guy hanging on a rope. The rope holds his weight for a while but then it starts to fray at a point of weakness until it suddenly fails. Aaaarrgghhh!

I'm also pretty certain that what mikeynov said was a large part of the reason, ie. that my form had dropped off because fatigue had set in. I believe that I would have stopped the set earlier, had I not been doing a stretch-point iso and able to use the stretch reflex to help lift the weight up from the lowest position. From now on I am going to stick to compounds for 5s or make very sure that my form is impeccable for any isos I do during 5s.
 
Lol...glad to see your tear is not too bad.

I have read up a lot on muscle tears.

And from my opinion when you get to the heavy weights 3 reps or less the risk/ return is just too high.

Now most guys who are on Anabolics really tear easier b/c of the muscle getting stronger than the tendon.

However someone like myself tore a muscle just be lifting my 1 rep max.

I know that 5 reps or less are beneficial...hell they can cause serious hypertrophy....I just dont think its worth it.

However most will disagree...until they get injured like I did and see just how hard it is to rebound from something like that.

Some of my best gains came after my injury though...the reason why is b/c as MikeyNov pointed out the importance of form.

We all think we have great form...but next time you do a hst routine. Really watch your form...watch your tempo...slowly lower it and brief pause with a controlled reaction and I bet it will surprise us all.

My weights got cut into half...but the gains were astonishing.

I find this advantagous for a couple of reasons.

Take dumbell bench press...I can do 80 pounds for reps but I cant do them at a slow tempo.

However I grab the 55's and do them nice and slow. ITs easier on my joints I have plenty of room to progress in weights without it getting too damn heavy and dangerous.

Enough rambling...my 2 cents...
biggrin.gif
 
<div>
(Lol @ Aug. 03 2006,21:21)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Steve: Interesting comment that &quot;it takes 100 days for the tendons to rebuild collagen.&quot; I'd like to read up on this, so if you know of any on-line articles that discuss it I'd love to hear. TIA.</div>
Histopathology Of Common Tendinopathies

excerpt from chapter 4, part 1: Tendinosis, structural damage to the tendon that may include partial tearing of collagen, may require longer healing time than has traditionally been afforded a patient with tendinopathy. In sports, tendons must often sustain more than 10 times body weight, yet the tissue has a slow metabolic rate as evidenced by its having only 13% of the oxygen uptake of muscle and requiring more than 100 days to synthesize collagen [94, 95]. Thus, repair of tendinosis may take months rather than weeks
 
<div>
(stevejones @ Aug. 03 2006,20:31)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">You can make progress and take care of your joints simultaneously. If anyone is hardcore about heavy weights, it's me. In the past I have used several different strength programs, and they all focused on moving heavy weight. My joints have suffered from it too.

What has killed them are iso exercises like skullcrushers, high board presses (5-7 boards, which is an iso exercise for tris), preacher curls, seated tricep presses, etc. etc. It's just a hunch, but I think that this might occur because when you do iso exercises, and you become fatigued, you don't have any other muscles to take an extra part of the load, and are only left with your tendons (?
rock.gif
)

Anyway, it's not always an issue of form. Tell me how your elbows feel after pushing up to 465 lbs for 5 reps on a high board bench press for 2 weeks. Even though you progress up to that weight, it still takes a big toll. Unless you are blessed with 9&quot; wrists and elbows that are 18&quot; around (and, some guys are actually like that..lucky sob's), your tendons are going to hurt. Also, the guy who made the statement of &quot;see how you feel in 20 yrs&quot; makes an awesome point. As you age, tendons degenerate quicker than muscle. As strength increases and/or you get older, working around joint pain is something that everyone has to do at some point, unless you are very gifted.</div>
I would say doing stuff like lots of board presses for triceps is not a very good idea for a program like HST.

The absolute load of exercises like that for a strong person are going to be really really high.

It'd almost be like doing quarter squats for your quads or something. The weights you could use doing that would cause real problems.

I think &quot;overload&quot; type movements as above and high frequency do not a happy couple make.

But yes, I do understand your point.
 
<div>
(stevejones @ Aug. 04 2006,03:08)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Lol @ Aug. 03 2006,21:21)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Steve: Interesting comment that &quot;it takes 100 days for the tendons to rebuild collagen.&quot; I'd like to read up on this, so if you know of any on-line articles that discuss it I'd love to hear. TIA.</div>
Histopathology Of Common Tendinopathies

excerpt from chapter 4, part 1: Tendinosis, structural damage to the tendon that may include partial tearing of collagen, may require longer healing time than has traditionally been afforded a patient with tendinopathy. In sports, tendons must often sustain more than 10 times body weight, yet the tissue has a slow metabolic rate as evidenced by its having only 13% of the oxygen uptake of muscle and requiring more than 100 days to synthesize collagen [94, 95]. Thus, repair of tendinosis may take months rather than weeks</div>
Thanks for that Steve. What a fascinating article esp. the tendon anatomy section. The more I learn about this stuff the more I am blown away by the complexity of it all.
 
<div>
(Joe.Muscle @ Aug. 04 2006,02:59)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Lol...glad to see your tear is not too bad.</div>
Thanks Joe. Healing is going well. I can't put body weight on my calf yet (it's only been 7 days) but the soreness to touch has all but gone and I feel like I may be walking again in a week or so. I have started on very light, assisted calf raises and stretches.

I have always steered clear of 1 rep max's for anything and will continue to do so. Do you think you would have suffered any injury sticking to 5s and with good form?

When you say:

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Now most guys who are on Anabolics really tear easier b/c of the muscle getting stronger than the tendon.</div>
Don't you think that that implies tendon tearing? I'm wondering about the strength of the tendon/muscle join. It may be that this becomes the area of weakness so that the muscle rips off the tendon? I don't know enough about that kind of physiology though, so will have to read it up.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">This may sound harsh</div>

It isn't harsh, as it's a valid question. I've been lifting for quite a few years now and always make sure my form is very strick. I just really feel that the exercises I chose to perform for shoulders and biceps is where it really hurt. Felt like my shoulder popped. I'm thinking now, after reading this that I may just either leave isolation exercises out altogether and concentrate on compound movements or decrease the weight and do a few more reps for at least those 2 movements. Surprisingly enough, my shoulder press did not hurt. But laterals and bicep curls (doing curls is where I felt the pop) may just be out.
 
Know I feel if I would of stuck to the just my 5 rep max...I would of prob never have torn anything.

I think the 5's are safe...just for someone like myself and now you included...since we have a pre-existing tear I dont want to go below 5's b/c of the increased risk...b/c of the previous tear.

This is my gut feeling.

People on steroids tear easier b/c of the increased strength.

I can't explain the science behind it to a perfect T.

But what I do know is as a natural lifter like ourselves our muscles grow and get stronger...and they do this closely at about the same spead as our tendons.

When you get on the juice your muscle get way stronger than your tendons and they do it very fast.

This is were you hear of people having a &quot;blow out&quot;

or blow shoulder, arms and etc.

What has happend with the juiced individuals is that there muscle could handle there new found strength but not the tendons around it...this is were the injuries set in.

I hope that explains it...
biggrin.gif
 
Like most of the older guys here, joint health is always an issue for me. I love doing 5's but my joints only allow about 4 weeks of them before I gotta take a break.

90% of my pain is in the elbows, at the triceps insertion point. Been this way for a few years - it's my point of failure every cycle. I take fish oils, glucosamine, MSM and Shark Cartilage, etc... Only helps to a point. This cycle, I've clustered more on my 2nd set of 10's. I start 5's on Monday and my elbows are pretty decent this time going into the 5's - we will see if the clustering made a difference or not.

Is my form good? I would guess that it is overall - pretty solid. In my case, I think I'm paying the price for the damage I did when I was younger. Like in life, I wish I knew then what I know now.  
biggrin.gif


Anyway, I'm 53 and do the 5's until I can't take the pain anymore then I SD. 10's are good for me but nothing gives me muscle fullness like the 5's.

Firm
 
<div>
(stevejones @ Aug. 03 2006,20:08)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Lol @ Aug. 03 2006,21:21)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Steve: Interesting comment that &quot;it takes 100 days for the tendons to rebuild collagen.&quot; I'd like to read up on this, so if you know of any on-line articles that discuss it I'd love to hear. TIA.</div>
Histopathology Of Common Tendinopathies

excerpt from chapter 4, part 1: Tendinosis, structural damage to the tendon that may include partial tearing of collagen, may require longer healing time than has traditionally been afforded a patient with tendinopathy. In sports, tendons must often sustain more than 10 times body weight, yet the tissue has a slow metabolic rate as evidenced by its having only 13% of the oxygen uptake of muscle and requiring more than 100 days to synthesize collagen [94, 95]. Thus, repair of tendinosis may take months rather than weeks</div>
Excellent post stevejones.
 
<div>
(Firminator @ Aug. 04 2006,08:18)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Like most of the older guys here, joint health is always an issue for me. I love doing 5's but my joints only allow about 4 weeks of them before I gotta take a break.

90% of my pain is in the elbows, at the triceps insertion point. Been this way for a few years - it's my point of failure every cycle. I take fish oils, glucosamine, MSM and Shark Cartilage, etc... Only helps to a point. This cycle, I've clustered more on my 2nd set of 10's. I start 5's on Monday and my elbows are pretty decent this time going into the 5's - we will see if the clustering made a difference or not.

Is my form good? I would guess that it is overall - pretty solid. In my case, I think I'm paying the price for the damage I did when I was younger. Like in life, I wish I knew then what I know now.
biggrin.gif


Anyway, I'm 53 and do the 5's until I can't take the pain anymore then I SD. 10's are good for me but nothing gives me muscle fullness like the 5's.

Firm</div>
I too have had elbow pain for years...

I have found for my elbows the more stretch on the triceps the more likely I am to get tendonitis.

For me, heavy tri extensions on bench always lead to chronic and serious elbow pain... What I've had to do lately is stick with dips, push downs for the heaviest loads and then after all that work do some overhead stuff when the tri is already fatigued. Doesn't bother my elbows then and I still get decent loading with more stretch.

I began lifting in 78' and all these years later, there are just some movements I don't do. Personally I haven't sacrificed any size gains by being so selective. The only draw back is that you may not get particularly strong on that specific movement.
 
<div>
(Joe.Muscle @ Aug. 04 2006,08:56)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Know I feel if I would of stuck to the just my 5 rep max...I would of prob never have torn anything.

I think the 5's are safe...just for someone like myself and now you included...since we have a pre-existing tear I dont want to go below 5's b/c of the increased risk...b/c of the previous tear.

This is my gut feeling.

People on steroids tear easier b/c of the increased strength.

I can't explain the science behind it to a perfect T.

But what I do know is as a natural lifter like ourselves our muscles grow and get stronger...and they do this closely at about the same spead as our tendons.

When you get on the juice your muscle get way stronger than your tendons and they do it very fast.

This is were you hear of people having a &quot;blow out&quot;

or blow shoulder, arms and etc.

What has happend with the juiced individuals is that there muscle could handle there new found strength but not the tendons around it...this is were the injuries set in.

I hope that explains it...
biggrin.gif
</div>
fairly accurate but not 100%.

firstly it depends on the compounds used, testosterone for instance can increase muscle protein synthesis which is great,but what you were hitting on is that test decreases the amount of collogen synth which affects tendon and cartlidge and can reduce it by as much as 80%(over a short period).

but other compound(s) such as nandrolone deconate(deca) or equipose have been shown to dramatically increase collagen synth aiding tendon and cartlidge while such growth is occuring.

however it is far better to stay natural for as long as you can.


as for fives i like to do them for 2-3 weeks max as posted above they can tax your joints especially in older trainers.
 
A question

If load is so important

if I do a set of squats with 200k for 5 reps then a front squat with 100k

would this be better than

front squat 120k then back squat 180k all for 5s.

or would it make no difference?
 
If one of those lifts is compromising the other, why do them together like that? Do them on different days so you can use 200 for squats and 120 for front squats.
 
Good point.

Dont sacrifice extra sets...or anything if it hinders your load.

I think the 5's are very beneficial, but you could grow with or without them.

There is no reason to not do them....unless you are injured or something.
 
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