CNS and muscle

Discussion in 'Basic Training Principles and Methods' started by naz, Aug 4, 2004.

  1. naz

    naz New Member

    The spilt looks good to me as far as splits go that is. This is exactly what splitters do. will you be going to localized neural fatigue by the last set or close to it then for every bodypart in every session. Localized neural fatigue altho not associated with growth and helps with neural adaptability but IMO for conventional splitters, it is a good indication that you've hit your muscles well enough for that single session in that week.
  2. MrNasty

    MrNasty New Member

    I do train to failure during these splits, yes. Usually on the last 2 sets. Normally, I would only do 4 sets per exercises, but maybe 4-5 exercises per muscle group - training to failure on the last set of each exercise, if possible. If the muscle begins to tire earlier and I am no longer able to achieve 4 sets, I will stop at three, rest, and switch exercises.

    I really like to get into the muscle, really damage those fibers, during these splits. I'm usually sore as hell after every work out, for the intire duration of the routine (however long that might be), but its ok because I wont be working that muscle out again until next week.

    AAS hepls out a lot as well.

    One thing that I do not normally do, which I will do this next time around, is use a progressive load during my splits. It wont be as detailed has a HST progression, but I will progress gradually over several weeks - starting lower in weights and increasing the load every couple work outs. The strength gains during my AAS cycle should allow me to get into the heavier weight while still progressing - I hope.
  3. Heavy Duty dude

    Heavy Duty dude New Member

    What I mean is that either HST is optimal either it is not when you're on gear. To go back to a split you have to find arguments suggesting that it works differently than if you are on gear.

    It seems that you absolutely want to increase volume because your recovery abilities will be higher. But according to HST, you'd be better off increasing frequency instead, because volume doesn't play a big role in hypertrophy and frequency is more important because it keeps your muscles in a more anabolic milieu.

    What's more, if you're on gear, you can probably increase the volume with HST as it is now. I personaly do 4 sets per exercise 3-6 times a week and I'm natural. So you can probably increase your number of sets without problem.

    Finaly, don't overestimate the problem of overtraining. If really you happen to overtrain, you just have to take 1-2 more days off. In my experience with loading/deloading, it's enough to get out of overtraining. In fact doing that is good because it allows you to train as much as possible.
  4. HST isn't exactly low volume it just takes the standard volumes of split training and spreads them throughout the week in order to preserve CNS recovery.

    Someone please correct me if I'm wrong here, but volume as related to TUT does relate to hypertrophy, we must induce enough of a stimulus to kick off the reactions involved, including TUT, if volume is reduced then so is TUT unless doing some other sort of loaded stretch or using very heavy loads to increase the tension or both?

    If you are truly overtrained then I think it might take a bit longer than that to fully recover. See Bryan's remarks earlier this thread.
  5. MrNasty

    MrNasty New Member


    I guess increasing freqency while doing a split might not hurt, but it would through off the balance of the whole routine. In all actuality, the split I suggested uses an even split, for the most part, between isolated and compounded movements. Persoanlly, I use a wide varitey of both.

    This would mean, that some of the movements (exercises) carry over in to the next work out. For instance, I work Chest/Tri's on day 1, but on day 5 I work shoulders, which uses the Tri's (as a secondary) in heavy presses. My Tri, if the work out was good, might not yet be fully recovered. Same thing when working Back/Bi's on day 3, and certain shoulder movements on day 5. The only WO i can see increasing frequency on is leg days - all lower body is done on day 7, alone. So picking up an extra day of legs might not hurt. But their would be no real way increase frecuency on any given workout, without possible effecting a furture workout.

    Also, as DKM said, TUT would have more of an effect on hypertrophy than frequency. Time under tention, even though not monitered from rep to rep, can be monitered in terms of volume. When I say moniter, I'm not talking the actual cadence count, but rather the amount of time your muscle is under tension. So 2 sets with a 4/4 cadence could possible be similar to 4 or 5 sets of a faster tempo. Not exactly, of course, but I'm just trying to show the notion of TUT. I'm just trying to show the corelation between rep cadence (TUT) and workouts with high volume - The time at which a muscle is under tension.
  6. Heavy Duty dude

    Heavy Duty dude New Member

    Well first of all I don't think that the notion of TUT is so important in HST. The most important is really to increase the load. For instance the general guideline is to do 2 sets throughout the cycle, which reduces the TUT by a factor of 3.

    However, a lot of people try to keep the number of reps more or less constant thoughout a cycle. For instance you will hear people talk about 1x15,2x10, 3x5. Some also keep the loadxsetsxreps constant instead.

    What you can do if you want to keep the TUT more constant while increasing volume is something like 2x15, 3x10, 4x5. This is perfectly feasable.

    You may even do more since you're on gear, provided you have enough time to train. The duration of your workouts is not really a problem as far as I know in HST.

    Or you may even do something like 1x15, 2x10, 3x5 with something like 4 workouts per week. The idea is to increase frequency instead of increasing the volume much more.

    If you do a traditional split, you will have a much lower frequency. You will not be able to take the better off the fact to reduce the rep range like in HST, so you won't counter the RBE as effectively. However, it's true that your strength is likely to increase and counter the RBE, but the frequency will still be much lower.

    In any case, like I said before, I don't know if it works the same when someone is on gear. It's possible that the hypertrophic reponse doesn't saturate so quickly with volume on steroids. I really don't know.
  7. MrNasty

    MrNasty New Member

    HDD, I appreciate your reply.

    I am actually doing 2x15, 3x10, & 4x5 during my HST routine.

    Also, after talking with blade, I've switched my split up to 2on/1off/2on/2off - upper/lower split. (thanks blade)

    Day 1: Chest - Back - Delts
    Day 2: Legs - Bis - Tris
    Day 3: OFF
    Day 4: Chest - Back - Delts
    Day 5: Legs - Bis - Tris
    Day 6: OFF
    Day 7: OFF (or I'll start over here on day 7)

    Better huh, in terms of frequency?
  8. Heavy Duty dude

    Heavy Duty dude New Member

    If it works the same when on gear I'd say yes.

    It's a good thing that you checked that with Blade for sure.
  9. A quote from Bryan
    Now the way I understand it TUT becomes less important as the Load and Tension increase but it is still important, if it wasn't then we could all work with our 1 rm, but that wouldn't give us enough TUT.
    A quote from Spencer in another thread summed it up well
  10. Heavy Duty dude

    Heavy Duty dude New Member

    But in the basic HST, you don't increase the number of sets over the course of the cycle. You do 2 sets all the time. So you divide by 3 the TUT. If keeping TUT constant was an important part of HST it wouldn't be the case.

    From what I understand, in HST, you do the minimum of TUT/volume to make microtrauma and that's it.

    And if you do a 5 rep set, you stimulate more fibers per rep than if you do a 15 rep set, so even though the TUT is smaller it can be compensated by higher fiber recruitement.

    Now what I say is how I understand HST as it is. Personaly I DO try to keep TUT more or less constant. It's like an insurance to make sure I overload.
  11. Agreed, which is why I said

  12. Heavy Duty dude

    Heavy Duty dude New Member

    Ok then.. ;)

    There's also the idea that you condition more slowly to heavier loads. If that's true, it may allow a smaller TUT to still be effective.
  13. Bryan Haycock

    Bryan Haycock Administrator Staff Member

    Time under tension is important when training for size (i.e. HST)
  14. Bryan Haycock

    Bryan Haycock Administrator Staff Member

    You don't condition more slowly to heavier loads. The rate of conditioning is pretty much fixed. Its the extent or degree of conditioning that can change.

    Less time under tension works with very heavy loads because very heavy loads can cause microtrauma in less time than light loads.

    Plus, VERY heavy loads can cause trauma to the tissue reagardless of how conditioned a person is. At the same time, the risk of injury goes up so high it isn't worth the risk.
  15. by very heavy loads do you mean 4RM or heavier?

    and also, i wanted to add in a question of mine. what exactly is the physical process that causes CNS fatigue.

    now i know how it feels. but i don't know exactly what it is.

    sort of like we know that that burning sensation felt in the muscle is caused by lactic acid build up from waste products.

    what is the physical process that causes your central nervous system to be "fatigued"?
  16. BrianG

    BrianG New Member


    Regarding the question on fatigue, here's what I understand of it...Look at Fig 1 of Remember, your central nervous system is an organ that transmits electro-chemical signals, so a large cumulative number of action potentials flowing through it as a result of heavy exercise (either in the gym or at work like on the farm) will cause it to require rest sooner and more often. (Don't ask me for the precise biology of this.) Remember, it's the cumulative affect of exercise across all muscles and muscle groups over a period of time.

    Don't know if this helped you much or not.
  17. wow thanks BrianG. that's exactly the explanation i was looking for.
  18. Baoh

    Baoh New Member

    How heavy are you talking about in this instance?

    I don't have a training partner, as human beings cannot be depended upon, and feeding another's training mood grows tiresome, so that means I probably won't be able to use this information. However, I may have the option in about nine months from now, so I'd appreciate hearing/reading your answer to the above question.

    My connective tissues are practically made of beryllium, so no worries there regarding risk.

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