Cutting past 5s

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">It's all calories in v. calories out.</div>

I think this is correct...not the low carb/high fat stuff.
 
One thing I found during my recent cut was that my metabolism slowed noticeably as time went on – if I let it, that is.

So, if I started to feel cold (I never, ever felt cold when bulking – hot all the time) I'd get up from my work, which involves a lot of sitting, and go for a quick jog, saw a log or two, do something active. A 6 minute jog around the block would keep me hot for a good hour or so until it was time to do something active again.

I hate lengthy cardio, so short (usually sub 15min) sessions were what I went for. I'd even do a quick jog last thing at night so I was hot when I went to bed (I had a cold house this winter as heating disconected during refurb).

Trying to keep my metabolism up a bit for much of the time through regular short burts of activity seemed to work quite well along with a reduced calorie diet. I did drop a lot of the simple processed carbs from my diet along with breads, potatoes, rice and pasta, but I ate a ton of salad and green veggies like broccoli most days. Plus I always tried to keep my protein intake up to scratch. On weekends I'd eat more carbs (and generally up my cals) and then reduce them again during the week.

I went from 215lbs to 187lbs in four months. Lost a bit of strength along the way but not too much. Didn't count a single calorie either. Just watched the scales each week.

I think if I had wanted to go further and get below 10% bf I would have had to get more serious but it was pretty successful for a first attempt.

I stuck with 5s for nearly 3 months and loved it.

Now I am on a slow bulk again and finding that a fresh cycle starting with 15s seems really odd after spending so long on 5s.
 
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(scientific muscle @ May 15 2007,20:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Can I sit here and say that no high carb diet ever produced a ripped, muscular body?  Of course not!  But far and away, the low carb/high protein/high fat approach is top notch for bodybuilders....  </div>
Why is that?</div>
The science guys are gonna rip me a new one on my explanation, but this is the best I can do with my non-scientific background...

In the simplest sense, restricting carbs while pumping up proteins/fats causes the body to burn more fat for energy, which does not happen to such a great degree when carbs are the body's primary energy source.

Doing cardio during this process helps expedite the fat burning process, since you're already using more fat as an energy source, and heavy lifting preserves the musculature you already have. It's basically a three-pronged fat attack.

I suppose I should have been more clear on this, but &quot;low carbs&quot; is different for everyone. Some people, like me, can eat 50 to 75 grams per day and be totally fine. Some people can't keep their eyes open or even get out of bed unless they get 150 grams. So from that standpoint, it's all individual.

But I'm more than willing to be proved wrong. If anyone has been able to go from double digit body fat to single digit on a high-carb type diet, I'd love to hear about it. It certainly would be a more fun way of eating than I'm doing now!
 
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(Slapshotz @ May 16 2007,15:00)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">But I'm more than willing to be proved wrong.  If anyone has been able to go from double digit body fat to single digit on a high-carb type diet, I'd love to hear about it.  It certainly would be a more fun way of eating than I'm doing now!</div>
check out bodybuilders in the later 1980's to the early 1990's

while I am at it

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">In the simplest sense, restricting carbs while pumping up proteins/fats causes the body to burn more fat for energy, which does not happen to such a great degree when carbs are the body's primary energy source. .</div>

your pumping up fats and ultimately you are burning more fat. Guess what fats are being burnt.
 
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(Slapshotz @ May 15 2007,19:47)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Cardio done in the so-called fat burning range does indeed burn fat. This is a fact.</div>
Sorry, Slap, but this is so wrong. The so-called &quot;fat burning range&quot; is a yesterday's myth that is still told by that ignorant 130 lbs- expert-trainers in the gym. Everyone should know, that burning fat is something totally different than reducing bodyfat. Fat is burnt form the very first lift on.
But that ain't the essential factor to get ripped. The most important effect is the increased metabolic activity induced by a heavy workout which lasts several hours. HIIT has a similar significant effect on your PW-metabolic acitivity but still not as as significant as weight training.
 
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(MoDog @ May 16 2007,04:34)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Slapshotz @ May 15 2007,19:47)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Cardio done in the so-called fat burning range does indeed burn fat.  This is a fact.</div>
Sorry, Slap, but this is so wrong. The so-called &quot;fat burning range&quot; is a yesterday's myth that is still told by that ignorant 130 lbs- expert-trainers in the gym. Everyone should know, that burning fat is something totally different than reducing bodyfat. Fat is burnt form the very first lift on.
But that ain't the essential factor to get ripped. The most important effect is the increased metabolic activity induced by a heavy workout which lasts several hours. HIIT has a similar significant effect on your PW-metabolic acitivity but still not as as significant as weight training.</div>
You're entitled to your opinion, mo.

All I can tell you, is I've walked the walk and posted before and afters using the exact approach that I'm espousing...low carbs, high protein/fat, heavy weights, and frequent low intensity cardio.

I'm not saying it's the only way, but you'll never convince me that any portion of it is invalid. I'll certainly grant you that HIIT cardio is also a viable option.

My trainer is far from an ignorant 130-pounder. He's a RD, an LDN, a CSCS, and a former powerlifting champion.
 
Sometimes, I think that some of you people should get a pet rat/hamster and train him. Some of the suggestions being pushed around would work great for such a scenario. Sadly, man is no rat, nor is a rat a man.
 
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(Morgoth the Dark Enemy @ May 16 2007,08:42)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Sometimes, I think that some of you people should get a pet rat/hamster and train him. Some of the suggestions being pushed around would work great for such a scenario. Sadly, man is no rat, nor is a rat a man.</div>
Good point, Morgoth.

I'll admit, it's fun to kick around ideas and talk about bodybuilding concepts in the abstract, what the studies show, what &quot;should&quot; or &quot;should not&quot; work, and/or the latest science, but at some point there has to be visible, quantifiable results achieved by Mr. Average Joe Bodybuilder...something more than &quot;I gained 10 pounds&quot; or &quot;I lost 10 pounds, and certainly more than anecdotal evidence from studies with lab rats, lab mice, or in vivo test summations.

In this respect, pictures are worth thousands of words, namely befores &amp; afters, along with before and after body comp stats.  That's how everyone should gage the true efficacy of any program, IMHO.
 
What`s even funnier is that you quote me, you state I`m right, and you`re pushing rat based ideas. And no, I`m not of the bunch of bros who think that science is useless without pics or any such nonsense, because if you look at the available science you`ll really get the idea about what should and shouldn`t be done. And there`s not magic to low-carbs, high-fat diets. It used to be in the 80s, but I hope we`ve gotten smarter now. So to sum things up, I really don`t agree with you, actually, I think that some of the stuff you`ve claimed is dead wrong.
 
Nobody ever said that what you are doing is invalid, slaps.
What you are doing works. the part I didn't like was when you said....&quot;you MUST eat less than a 100 g of carbs/day and you MUST do cardio.&quot;

Now that method is very valid, but is not a MUST. Calories in/calories out....100 ways to skin a cat and your method is only one of them.
 
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(Morgoth the Dark Enemy @ May 16 2007,13:04)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What`s even funnier is that you quote me, you state I`m right, and you`re pushing rat based ideas. And no, I`m not of the bunch of bros who think that science is useless without pics or any such nonsense, because if you look at the available science you`ll really get the idea about what should and shouldn`t be done. And there`s not magic to low-carbs, high-fat diets. It used to be in the 80s, but I hope we`ve gotten smarter now. So to sum things up, I really don`t agree with you, actually, I think that some of the stuff you`ve claimed is dead wrong.</div>
Rat-based ideas, eh?  this is the first I've ever heard the low carb/high protein/heavy lifting-based cutting approach referred to as such.  You're right.  I totally misinterpreted your post.

But please don't twist my words around.  I'm not saying science is useless.  I'm one of the few people I've seen on this site who actually discussed my quantifiable results in the scientific spirit that so many around here hold so dear.  

On my last cut, I knew exactly how many pounds of muscle I lost; I knew exactly how many pounds of bodyfat I lost; I kept track of every protein/fat/carb gram I placed in my mouth.  

In addition, I tracked my progress with bf/lbm comp tests every 60 days.  Therefore, when I post my workout plan and results, they have more validity than someone just saying, &quot;you're wrong&quot;, or &quot;such-and-such&quot; approach would work better&quot;, or, &quot;I was able to cut eating lots of carbs and doing no cardio.&quot;  

Really?  Great!  I'm in complete support of other methods besides mine, but aside from these very general statements that I see posted repeatedly in defiance of what I'm espousing, where are the numbers/analyses/pics from the naysayers to back it up?  

As far as pics being nonsense, I say that's nonsense!  What better way to tell the visual story of bodybuilding progress than via pictorial means?  This is, of course, assuming that the pics are undoctored, which is not an issue here.

So, if you want to tell me I'm wrong, fine.  I've been wrong before...many times...but in order for me to respect your opinion, I'd need to see hard data showing me you did it a different way, and did it more effectively.

Sci wrote:
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Nobody ever said that what you are doing is invalid, slaps.  What you are doing works.  the part I didn't like was when you said....&quot;you MUST eat less than a 100 g of carbs/day and you MUST do cardio.&quot;

Now that method is very valid, but is not a MUST.  Calories in/calories out....100 ways to skin a cat and your method is only one of them.</div>

I'll concede that point, Sci.  If I remember the start of the thread correctly, someone was asking for cutting advice, which I posted in the most general sense.  The word &quot;must&quot; should not have been used with respect the 100 grams of carbs, but I still stand by its use with respect to cardio.

That said, I am, indeed, being told by quite a few that the method I'm speaking of is, in fact, invalid.  This is where I take offense, because I've proved that it is, in fact, valid, by my very own results.

Now, excuse me while I go eat my sugar free pudding cup (only 6 grams of carbs!)
laugh.gif
 
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(Captain Crunch @ May 15 2007,17:36)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Why do cardio When I am cutting I just cut back on the total calories and continue with pretty much the same program I am on with HST. </div>
I have a suggestion.

Lifting is a great idea to stimulate and preserve muscles, increase metabolism while cutting. But why follow a hypertrophy routine? Why cause so much microtrauma, which will need resources to repair? Yes, it burns calories to repair, but why risk the damage? Why not follow a Strength only routine? Stimulate the muscles but not cause microtrauma.

I think lifting more often, less exercises, lower volume, low reps.

Anybody tried it?
 
So if I`m heavier than you with a lower BF% and ripped abz I`ll be right?Especially if I have many pictures to detail many transformations?If I`m a lard ass I`m disqualified right off the bat?This is relevant how?If it makes you feel better, consider me a lard ass that makes use of the Internet`s anonimity in order to cause grief to trained individuals.

I`m not disqualifying what you`re doing, I`m disqualifying the MUST, THERE IS NO OTHER WAY, etc. type of statements, as they`re absolutely not true. The HIGH FAT diet promoted by about a billion online gurus is based generally on rat studies, and the petarded ideas that carbs will magically make you fat/make it impossible to lose fat is also born out of murine research, coz the data on humans simply ain`t there. How I wish I was a rat. You were harping about adding fat whilst cutting carbs as being some kind of magic fat-burning enhancement. It`s not.

But, really, thinking about this, this is another pointless argument I`m getting myself drawn into. It must be due to the highish volume of stress that`s been accumulating lately in my life...so sorry, disregard my posts, have them as bla bla bla or something. I`m really not in the adequate mood for debating such things and I`ll probably say things in such a manner as to cause some toe-stepping.
 
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(scientific muscle @ May 16 2007,02:18)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">so at 187 I take it you are done cutting Lol?</div>
Yup, cutting over for now thank goodness. I've gained a few pounds already (I'm up to 190 now) but I agree, I must get some pics done before the rot sets in! I feel a bit of a twonk having to do them. I'd rather go by the load on the bar. I should probably start a log too.
rock.gif
 
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(bobpit @ May 16 2007,22:41)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Lifting is a great idea to stimulate and preserve muscles, increase metabolism while cutting.  But why follow a hypertrophy routine?  Why cause so much microtrauma, which will need resources to repair?  Yes, it burns calories to repair, but why risk the damage?   Why not follow a Strength only routine?  Stimulate the muscles but not cause microtrauma.

I think lifting more often, less exercises, lower volume, low reps.  

Anybody tried it?</div>
Does an HST type routine cause that much more microtrauma than a strength type routine? During the 5s the two are quite similar especially if you are doing an abbreviated program for HST.

Strain on the muscle tissue is important while cutting, so lifting heavy loads while trying to manage fatigue on a calorie deficit is seemingly the right thing to do. I think HST can be set up to do both these things quite effectively.

A strength type routine has the potential to cause more microtrauma if you are working nearer to your maxes and/or doing more volume than you would be with HST.
 
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(Morgoth the Dark Enemy @ May 16 2007,17:48)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So if I`m heavier than you with a lower BF% and ripped abz I`ll be right?Especially if I have many pictures to detail many transformations?If I`m a lard ass I`m disqualified right off the bat?This is relevant how?If it makes you feel better, consider me a lard ass that makes use of the Internet`s anonimity in order to cause grief to trained individuals.

I`m not disqualifying what you`re doing, I`m disqualifying the MUST, THERE IS NO OTHER WAY, etc. type of statements, as they`re absolutely not true. The HIGH FAT diet promoted by about a billion online gurus is based generally on rat studies, and the petarded ideas that carbs will magically make you fat/make it impossible to lose fat is also born out of murine research, coz the data on humans simply ain`t there. How I wish I was a rat. You were harping about adding fat whilst cutting carbs as being some kind of magic fat-burning enhancement. It`s not.

But, really, thinking about this, this is another pointless argument I`m getting myself drawn into. It must be due to the highish volume of stress that`s been accumulating lately in my life...so sorry, disregard my posts, have them as bla bla bla or something. I`m really not in the adequate mood for debating such things and I`ll probably say things in such a manner as to cause some toe-stepping.</div>
Morgoth, I'm not saying my way is the only way.  In fact, I'm asking...begging...pleading, for anyone who disagrees with me, to show me something better.  It's the general nature with which I'm being criticized that I have a problem with.

I could go find 100 studies that says the high protein/fat low carb approach is dogshit.  I'm not in disagreement there, nor do I disagree with your statement that the high fat studies mainly come from rats, mice, whatever.  

But I'm not looking for anecdotal evidence from a third party that disproves what I'm saying.  I'm looking for someone to jump in the fray, and say, &quot;Look at me, look at my results, look at what I've done, and I did it completely contrary to the horseshit that you're droning on about!&quot;

This, after all, is what it's about...right?  I mean, I don't know about you, but every time I see Jonesey's avetar, I'm motivated to just start deadlifting right in my office.  And it's not that I will &quot;only&quot; listen to those who look a certain way.  That's not it at all.  

But the very reason I participate in these boards is that I hope to find those special people that transform their physiques, and document those changes as well in the form of pictures, bf/lbm analyses, and training journals, so that I may learn from it and better my own lot.  Bodybuilding science/community at its best.

This discussion notwithstanding, I'm very sorry to hear that you're having a stressful go at it of late.  I, myself, am moving this coming Monday, so I'm a bit worn at the edges, too.  I hope things turn around for you soon, and despite the fiery nature of this discussion, I harbor no ill will.  In fact, in a sick kind of way, this is the most fun I've had since I've been here.
 
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