Doing away with bulking and cutting

Discussion in 'Hypertrophy-Specific Training (HST)' started by imported_drpierredebs, Nov 23, 2006.

  1. The more I read the scientific literature and based on the results I am gaining with my own body, I say do away with bulking and cutting. Now I am proposing this for everyone not on steroids and those who are not BB for competition although I would bet it would apply to the latter with alterations.

    Instead of wasting weeks of bulking and cutting, it would be more efficient to optimize the body to increase LBM and decrease FAT simultaneously and continuosly until the FAT has reached the desired %. After this point, it would be just a matter of maintianing within a given % fat levels and accepting a slower increase in LBM which is ineveitable the more one trains

    My justifications for this proposal are as follows.

    1. As the body increase LBM which is a direct result of resistance training and proper nutrition, the body become more efficient at producing and more importantly maintaining LBM. Concurrently, fat utilization is also increased and thus lost. I see a cycling of bulking then cutting as upsetting what the body has learned to do which is reach a level of efficiency.

    2. I have never done a bulk, cut or SD cycle and over the last year my strength has increased, my LBM has increased and my body fat % has slowely decreased.

    3. This has been achieved my eating between 1-1.5% g protein per kg body weight with no supplementation other than creatine. I only use amino acids during bike races and afterwards and sometimes during and after very long cardio/bike training sessions.

    4. The amount of fat gained during bulking is normally much more than the amount of muscle gained making the profit not really worth it as you must then do a cut to get ride of the fat which, as it is perscribed here, results also in a loss of muscle. a vicious circle. IT is becoming clear through the literature that it is much more economical to get good high quality protein, the best being milk, and getting the body to optimize LBM synthesis as a matter of routine and without cycles.

    There are an increasing number ofstudies showing that not only is milk the best source of protein, also you really only need a post exercise shot of 500 ml skim milk to get the most advantage of resistance training induced muscle synthesis.
    Other studies have shown that 10 g of Amino acids was enough and any more was just oxidized and not utilized for LBM synthesis. The day after the resistance exercise, considered as a rest time to allow the body to repair damage , protein requirements are not much higher than normal if at all. In other words, you don´t need more than the 1 - 1.5g per kg body weight and maybe even less. This is even more imprtant in that the habitually training persons body is even more efficient in using whta is given so much so that it may even be the case that one can take in even less protein to get even more growth.

    Couple this with the fact that the trained body is even more resistant to catabolism as the act of training, in and of itself, is anabolic and I arrive at the conclusion that we shoudl scrap Bulking, cycling and SD and do more cardio coupled with 3x weekly fullbody HST-5x5 strength training to achieve ultimate physical superiority.

    stick that in your hat! [​IMG]
     
  2. colby2152

    colby2152 New Member

    I agree with a lot of your statements. Besides a slightly successful cut earlier this year, I have stuck with a slow bulk, 300g over/day. It has worked great for me. I don't ever plan on bulking, but I see another cut in order as it gives faster results of fat loss.
     
  3. scientific muscle

    scientific muscle New Member

    I agree....my first cycle I added 8 lb.s of LBM, without trying to bulk. I added almost no fat based on my waist didn't change at all. My second cycle I tried to 'bulk' and gained 12 lb.s....6 lb.s LBM, and 6lb.s fat. I had to cut to get the fat off and lost all but 2 lb.s of LBM doing it. So basically lost 4 lb.s of muscle, which if I had just slowly bulked lean, I would have not had to cut and go backwards.

    I know many guys will disagree with this, but I find if I eat 'intuitively' I gain only lean mass slowly. If I try to 'bulk' on purpose I end up getting fat. My theory is my appetite will eat enough to maintain and hypertrophy lean mass, but if I force it, they extra calories will only go to fat storage. It works for me, but I am not saying it will work for everybody, we are all a little different.

    For me it is easier to let my training be the main stimulus for hypertrophy which fuels my appetite. And not the opposite: let my eating be the main stimulus for weight gain which is helped by training.
     
  4. scientific muscle

    scientific muscle New Member

    What a topic to post on Thanksgiving in America where we feast like crazy...give up bulking! This is the ultimate bulking day for the American bodybuilder! [​IMG]
     
  5. Old and Grey

    Old and Grey Super Moderator Staff Member

    Well......I certainly agree about the non-bulking. I don't bulk (except for today [​IMG] ) and I don't cut.

    However, I do cycle my training and I do SD. I found it to be key to my growing again after many years of being stalled. [​IMG]
     
  6. mikeynov

    mikeynov Super Moderator Staff Member

    My experience when lifting for my first few years was actually rather similar to Arthur Jones.

    I would occasionally and without warning latch onto a new equilibrium weight.

    E.g. I'd jump up ~5 lbs or so within a few weeks and then stay at that weight for months without change.
     
  7. lcars

    lcars New Member

    i do what i can only discribe as a clean bulk,eating a healthy protein and carb rich diet,keeping fat low.

    i dont like the idea of out right bulking,cramming as many callories down as possible,this just leads to some lbm and fat.and its much harder to get fat off than it is to put on.

    its just difficult some times to taylor your diet exactly to what your body needs,this is why i say clean bulk.
     
  8. Peak_Power

    Peak_Power New Member

    <div>
    (scientific muscle @ Nov. 23 2006,13:42)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I find if I eat 'intuitively' I gain only lean mass slowly. My theory is my appetite will eat enough to maintain and hypertrophy lean mass.</div>
    This has been my experience as well. The body is an amazing machine and will always tend towards homeostasis, and in my experience a person's appetite will always naturally go towards maintainance, and by that I mean it will desire to replace all the calories burnt in a day, plus any calories and amino acids needed to repair any damage and make adaptive changes it needs to make. So the body's idea of &quot;maintainance&quot; is difference from &quot;BMR&quot;, and different depending on whether you sit on your ass or do exercises/lift weights.
     
  9. Old and Grey

    Old and Grey Super Moderator Staff Member

    <div>
    (lcars @ Nov. 23 2006,15:11)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">i do what i can only discribe as a clean bulk,eating a healthy protein and carb rich diet,keeping fat low.</div>
    I do the same thing, at 250 cal over maintenance, but I emphasis the calories a little bit differently:

    Protein
    Good fats
    complex carbs
    simple carbs (sans sugar carbs)
    bad fats

    Of course the 250 cal is a guesstimate. I usually ending up putting on about 5 pounds per year now with bodyfat staying at 9%. So, I am probably, on average less than 100 cal daily over maintenance.
     
  10. Joe.Muscle

    Joe.Muscle Active Member

    I have expierenced what Mikey Nov has over many years.

    However I have know idea if bulking or cutting is good.

    I know a lot of people don't really understand what LBM is. They start training and will make comments like I have gained 40 pounds of muscle this year...when in reality thats not possible.

    I know people who eat nothing all day and gain muscle like crazy? My question to this is how??? They dont eat a surplus of calories...they dont get in protein...and know they are not on drugs either.

    I think science tells us a lot more about bodybuilding...but I think there is way more we don't know.

    There are too many people who have made great gains (myself included) who have not eaten enough protein, or calories.

    I think the body responds regardless to some weight training and then as you lift longer and longer...you seem to be in a maintenance phase...with maybe some results each year.

    My personal expierence is that I have weighed as much as 212 pounds at 12% bodyfat...yet I looked like shi-t.

    However now I weigh around 187 at 12% and have some abs and weighmore lean.

    On paper you would say I have lost muscle mass...but that is not the case.

    But the calipers say so...but when you look in the mirror there is a big difference between the two weights I have weighed.

    When you add creatine to the mix...who knows what you true LBM is?

    Im rabbling...but the more I know about this sport (if it even is a sport)...the more I get confused! [​IMG]
     
  11. style

    style New Member

    Hmmm interesting. I'm 'bulking' at the moment. I say 'bulking' because I'm eating a lot but Im not going totally apeshit Ronnie Coleman style eating whole tubs of ice cream post Olympia, bulking up to like 50 pounds over my lean weight than dietin git back down.

    I will say that although it is possible to gain muscle slowly, most of the HUGE guys have gone through a peroid where they got FAT, and Im talking fat like a fat person, and then cut it off. But im pretty sure they could have got just as big by consistently eating say 500 calories over maintanece every day, which we all know is a huge amount of food for a truly big guy.

    Incidentall Max Stim is working very well [​IMG]
     
  12. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    Interesting read but I don't go along with all of it. For example, years ago I trained hard and ate what I thought at the time was a lot of calories. I certainly didn't want to eat any more than I was. However, I grew hardly at all for a whole year and just got pretty fed up really. [​IMG]

    Over the last year I have taken eating much more seriously (ie. I have been eating way more than I would naturally choose to do) and I have made some really good gains. Sure, some of it is fat but my strength is now a lot higher than it has ever been before in my life and I look more muscular now.

    If you try to eat just a little more than maintenance, say just a few hundred cals over, how do you know that you are getting it consistantly right (maintenance is a guesstimate after all and it will vary everyday depending on requirements)?

    I don't see how you can grow if you only eat at maintenance (unless perhaps you have very high b/f levels). By consuming a bit more than you need (say 500 cals over maintenance), you are much more likely to be in calorie surplus and are therefore giving yourself the opportunity to grow.

    I'm sure it's possible to grow slowly by sticking close to maintenance (perhaps almost preventing any growth at all!) but it seems counterproductive to do so unless you have a problem with a bit of extra bodyfat.

    Perhaps a lot of the differences we experience in gaining bodyweight are due to the individual's testostereone levels? So it would really be down to each individual to find out what works for them. After all, we know that it is perfectly possible for someone to gain some lean mass and lose bf if they are on a steroid cycle whilst on a 'cut'. Overall bodyweight may not change a great deal but the ratio of lbm to bw would improve.

    I totally agree that a really fast bulk is not a good idea but, for someone new to training,  8-10 lbs added over a 12 week cycle would be perfectly acceptable. If it became apparent that bf was starting to rise more than was desirable (maybe by the end of the first year of training) then calories above maintenance could be reduced - perhaps a drop to around 1/2 lb a week gain or 6lbs over a 12 week cycle.

    Sci: how do you know that your 12lb bodyweight increase was a 50:50 muscle to fat ratio? What about fluids?

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">My personal expierence is that I have weighed as much as 212 pounds at 12% bodyfat...yet I looked like shi-t.

    However now I weigh around 187 at 12% and have some abs and weighmore lean.</div>

    So, Joe @ 212lbs bw and 12% bf you looked rubbish but @ 187lbs and 12% bf you look better? [​IMG] Hmmm. So in the first case your lbm was around 186.5lbs and in the second case it was around 164.5lbs. A difference of nearly 20lbs lbm yet only 3lbs bf! How do you weigh more lean? Perhaps you were carrying a lot of fluid when you were bulking? [​IMG]
     
  13. stevejones

    stevejones Member

    To me, bulking is eating more calories than you are burning, and cutting is eating less calories than you are burning.  You can't gain muscle mass while you are cutting, and can't lose fat while you're bulking (noobs need not apply).  Your statements concerning bodyfat levels are very vague.  You never specify certain percentages.  

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">it would be more efficient to optimize the body to increase LBM and decrease FAT simultaneously</div>  --- impossible, especially for a bodybuilder who is already at 10%

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">it would be just a matter of maintianing within a given % fat levels and accepting a slower increase in LBM which is ineveitable the more one trains</div> --- sure, it's possible to maintain bf % levels within a range while you accept a slower increase in lbm, but you don't specify the bf % levels....10-15%, sure it's possible...5-8% ?  Nope, I don't think so...not unless you're very gifted.  Definitely impossible for a guy with my genetics
     
  14. stevejones

    stevejones Member

    <div>
    (Joe.Muscle @ Nov. 23 2006,16:16)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">My personal expierence is that I have weighed as much as 212 pounds at 12% bodyfat...yet I looked like shi-t.

    However now I weigh around 187 at 12% and have some abs and weighmore lean.</div>
    Joe, your story is a very interesting one.  You're correct, the body does things and varies from person to person greatly sometimes.  However, I doubt you were really at 12% when you were 212 pounds.  Because you say you looked like sh*t at 212 and look much better or have just as much LBM at 187, I think the calipers gave you an inaccurate measurement.  Calipers are just not accurate enough for my taste.  If you were measured underwater or in a bodpod and your results were 12% at 212 lbs, and then 12% at 187, I'd accept it and admit I was wrong.

    Edit: On second thought...I suppose you could have been carrying a lot of extra muscle that would appear as fat. Yeah, I'll have to backtrack and correct myself, because when I was heavy and at 12-15% I looked a lot fatter than I did when I was much lighter and still 12-15%

    I'm posting too much here...guess I'll get back to watching these FAT ASS GUESTS we have over stuff their fat faces like pigs with TONS AND TONS of food....ugh, cutting sucks
     
  15. Fausto

    Fausto HST Expert

    A very interesting article or series thereof...

    I quite agree with teh good Dr. in the sense that the cycling of bulking/cutting ends up creating some inbalance in the body's physiology. [​IMG]

    I have neverr been one to take too much notice of the calory intake, but have for a while been eating as clean as possible avoiding fattening stuff as much as possible.

    In my experience of late even though I am cutting somewhat (I mean restricting some food intake...but not quite enough to go hungry), my body is startiung to look real good, I hover between 68 - 70 Kg and my body fat levels by calculator are between 11.5 and 12.5 %, I can definitelly see my 4 top abs with exception of a little body fat covering the last two (and...man...does it irritate me [​IMG] ).

    The other day at church we had a body fat measuring instrument, one of these machines that youhold at arms length and by eletrical current it gives an electronic read out (I measured 18% - bull twang - no ways ismy body fat so high, totally inacurate IMO)...I did not say anything as they were from a gym and were borrowing us some equipment (like such) for the workshop (Health Ministries for which I do exercise and benefits thereof), the gym is called curves and is for women only...sounds like crap to me, but anyway, it was fun.

    Me too. I end up rambling! [​IMG]

    Anyway, I said the other day I found a very cool protein special...a full 33.73 USD for 5 Kg of protein and 100 g creatine, I am definitelly going to buy 2 buckets and can tehn embark on a good old routine pushing what i should be pushing.

    As for SD'ying that my good Dr. I shal not stop...I think it is worth every minute...although I will put it off as much as possible till my joints cry...murder! [​IMG]
     
  16. <div>
    (Old and Grey @ Nov. 23 2006,14:02)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Well......I certainly agree about the non-bulking. I don't bulk (except for today    [​IMG] ) and I don't cut.

    However, I do cycle my training and I do SD. I found it to be key to my growing again after many years of being stalled.   [​IMG]</div>
    Cycling between high volume, High intensity, low volume, etc... is a good thing for those who feel the need based on what their bodies tells them. SD is okay for those that feel they need it. It is a personal choice, for me I feel no need for it and when I feel the need for taking it back a notch, I just sub a workout with a low volume, low intensity workout.
     
  17. <div>
    (Joe.Muscle @ Nov. 23 2006,16:16)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I know people who eat nothing all day and gain muscle like crazy? My question to this is how???  They dont eat a surplus of calories...they dont get in protein...and know they are not on drugs either.


    There are too many people who have made great gains (myself included) who have not eaten enough protein, or calories.

    I think the body responds regardless to some weight training and then as you lift longer and longer...you seem to be in a maintenance phase...with maybe some results each year.</div>
    There will always be those that gain muscle just by drinking water. This would be called genetic freaks, maybe. It would be hard to scientifically control for this type of investigation, but they may have had a lucky mix of nutrition when they were very young that set them up for life. I know a few of these people who are seemingly born with an olympic physique and none of them are of white -european descent. They are all of african descent ( please do not read any racisism into this).

    The fact that many gain muscle with what most here would say is way below normal amounts of protein only strengthens my beliefs.
     
  18. <div>
    (style @ Nov. 23 2006,16:26)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Hmmm interesting. I'm 'bulking' at the moment. I say 'bulking' because I'm eating a lot but Im not going totally apeshit Ronnie Coleman style eating whole tubs of ice cream post Olympia, bulking up to like 50 pounds over my lean weight than dietin git back down.</div>
    body builders such as the one you mention are removed from my ideas as they are functioning on a level which is out of reach for 99.9% of the population due to insane amounts of chemicals the ingest to force muscle synthesis. Only time will tell if these types live past 60.
     
  19. <div>
    (Lol @ Nov. 23 2006,21:56)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">point 1. Interesting read but I don't go along with all of it. For example, years ago I trained hard and ate what I thought at the time was a lot of calories. I certainly didn't want to eat any more than I was. However, I grew hardly at all for a whole year and just got pretty fed up really.  [​IMG]

    point2.Over the last year I have taken eating much more seriously (ie. I have been eating way more than I would naturally choose to do) and I have made some really good gains. Sure, some of it is fat but my strength is now a lot higher than it has ever been before in my life and I look more muscular now.

    point 3. If you try to eat just a little more than maintenance, say just a few hundred cals over, how do you know that you are getting it consistantly right (maintenance is a guesstimate after all and it will vary everyday depending on requirements)?

    point 4. I don't see how you can grow if you only eat at maintenance (unless perhaps you have very high b/f levels). By consuming a bit more than you need (say 500 cals over maintenance), you are much more likely to be in calorie surplus and are therefore giving yourself the opportunity to grow.

    I'm sure it's possible to grow slowly by sticking close to maintenance (perhaps almost preventing any growth at all!) but it seems counterproductive to do so unless you have a problem with a bit of extra bodyfat.

    Perhaps a lot of the differences we experience in gaining bodyweight are due to the individual's testostereone levels? So it would really be down to each individual to find out what works for them. After all, we know that it is perfectly possible for someone to gain some lean mass and lose bf if they are on a steroid cycle whilst on a 'cut'. Overall bodyweight may not change a great deal but the ratio of lbm to bw would improve.

    I totally agree that a really fast bulk is not a good idea but, for someone new to training,  8-10 lbs added over a 12 week cycle would be perfectly acceptable. If it became apparent that bf was starting to rise more than was desirable (maybe by the end of the first year of training) then calories above maintenance could be reduced - perhaps a drop to around 1/2 lb a week gain or 6lbs over a 12 week cycle.

    Sci: how do you know that your 12lb bodyweight increase was a 50:50 muscle to fat ratio? What about fluids?

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">My personal expierence is that I have weighed as much as 212 pounds at 12% bodyfat...yet I looked like shi-t.

    However now I weigh around 187 at 12% and have some abs and weighmore lean.</div>

    So, Joe @ 212lbs bw and 12% bf you looked rubbish but @ 187lbs and 12% bf you look better?  [​IMG] Hmmm. So in the first case your lbm was around 186.5lbs and in the second case it was around 164.5lbs. A difference of nearly 20lbs lbm yet only 3lbs bf! How do you weigh more lean? Perhaps you were carrying a lot of fluid when you were bulking?  [​IMG]</div>
    point 1. maybe you trained hard and WRONG or maybe you hadn´t found your personal formula for success which is what I was in one way implying. Maybe you ate the wrong balance of macronutrients.

    point2. see point 1 above.

    point 3. I guess to get it approximately right one needs to be a little obsessive in determining the balance of nutrients on needs. what you think is maintenance maybe way off. I eat when I am hungry and using my own personal ratios of macronutrients.

    point 4. if you are habitually training, your body is better at isolating amino acids from ingested protein sources, get it?

    Natural levels of testosterone would, I imagine, make a real difference in growth rates. I would have to research it, but I am more concerned with protein intake at the moment.
     
  20. <div>
    (stevejones @ Nov. 23 2006,22:15)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">To me, bulking is eating more calories than you are burning, and cutting is eating less calories than you are burning.  You can't gain muscle mass while you are cutting, and can't lose fat while you're bulking (noobs need not apply).  Your statements concerning bodyfat levels are very vague.  You never specify certain percentages.  

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">it would be more efficient to optimize the body to increase LBM and decrease FAT simultaneously</div>  --- impossible, especially for a bodybuilder who is already at 10%

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">it would be just a matter of maintianing within a given % fat levels and accepting a slower increase in LBM which is ineveitable the more one trains</div> --- sure, it's possible to maintain bf % levels within a range while you accept a slower increase in lbm, but you don't specify the bf % levels....10-15%, sure it's possible...5-8% ?  Nope, I don't think so...not unless you're very gifted.  Definitely impossible for a guy with my genetics</div>
    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">  You can't gain muscle mass while you are cutting, and can't lose fat while you're bulking <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">

    I don´t agree with this at all. and Maybe you should read some of the articles I referenced in the protein thread.

     

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