Doing away with bulking and cutting

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Fausto · Posted on Nov. 24 2006,01:00
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Anyway, I said the other day I found a very cool protein special...a full 33.73 USD for 5 Kg of protein and 100 g creatine.....</div>
Did you find it on the web ?
Could you please tell me the address ?

Thank you
Andrea
 
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(drpierredebs @ Nov. 24 2006,02:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Now I know why you think my BF% are vague. YOu are looking for a quantification which is not realizable unless all of you come over to germany and we measure our body fat. I intentionally left out numbers to avoid comments such as the one you posted. My point was not to prescribe somemagic ratios, but to rethink the whole &quot;IDEA&quot;/benefit/efficiency/ purpose of bulking and cutting based on reading the scientific literature and my own personal experiences. It is left to the individual to determine &quot;QUANTITIES&quot;</div>
Well, if that is all you are talking about then that is already being done, as almost all bbers who cut and bulk stay within a bodyfat range determined by them. I bulk and cut, but don't let my bodyfat exceed 15% and won't let it get below 5%. Plenty of others don't let their bodyfat exceed 10%.

The one error I see in your post is your presumption that it is possible to increase LBM and decrease bodyfat simultaneously. Even professional bbers on drugs know that this can't be done, which is why they bulk and then cut. I believe that a body which has already adapted to exercise tries too hard to maintain homeostasis for this kind of thing to occur.
 
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(stevejones @ Nov. 24 2006,03:08)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
The one error I see in your post is your presumption that it is possible to increase LBM and decrease bodyfat simultaneously.  Even professional bbers on drugs know that this can't be done, which is why they bulk and then cut.  I believe that a body which has already adapted to exercise tries too hard to maintain homeostasis for this kind of thing to occur.</div>
The error I see in your post is the exact opposite.
It is entirely and absolutely possible to increase LBM and lose fat simultaneously. That it is not possible is a fairy tale propageted by BBs hopped up on drugs, propogated by thoroughly unsceintific, non-evidence based muscle mags, supplementation industry and malinformed internet self-proclaimed gurus.

BBs are the wrong &quot;experimental&quot; system to study protein synthesis because 1. They represent an artificial system based on steroid usage far beyond what any non-BBer would even want to consider even to treat an organic problem of genetic basis. 2. The reference point for optimizing protein synthesis should be a &quot;normal&quot; individual, of which 100´s of millions are found in the general population and Not individuals at the right end of a bell curve which includes BB ( not based on how they achieved their 99% LBM) and those whose genetic /environmental made them extra ordinarily muscular.

To take the protocols a &quot;synthetic&quot; BBer uses to achieve absurd amounts of LBM with absurdly low body fat% and somehow extrapolate down to the average guy is false.

Buy a mountain bike, train riding this bike uphill in low gears and watch how your LBM, notably in your legs, increases and your fat melts away, at the same time eat a normal diet with approximately 30-35% of your energy intake from protein-and prove it to yourself.
 
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(stevejones @ Nov. 24 2006,03:08)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The one error I see in your post is your presumption that it is possible to increase LBM and decrease bodyfat simultaneously.  Even professional bbers on drugs know that this can't be done, which is why they bulk and then cut.  I believe that a body which has already adapted to exercise tries too hard to maintain homeostasis for this kind of thing to occur.</div>
There are many scientific studies supporting the fact that LBM can increase concurrently with Fat lose.

Here is one that just came out today. If you can´t get it, PM me your private email and I will send it to you. You have to read the results and figures to see that indeed an increase in LBM, and Strength, is possible with a concurrent loss of Boody Fat and these subjects were not overweight, they were in fact fairly strong.

Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2006 Nov;38(11):1918-25.

Effects of supplement timing and resistance exercise on skeletal muscle hypertrophy.

Cribb PJ,
Hayes A.
Exercise Metabolism Unit, Center for Ageing, Rehabilitation, Exercise and Sport; and the School of Biomedical Sciences, Victoria University, Victoria, AUSTRALIA.
PURPOSE:: Some studies report greater muscle hypertrophy during resistance exercise (RE) training from supplement timing (i.e., the strategic consumption of protein and carbohydrate before and/or after each workout). However, no studies have examined whether this strategy provides greater muscle hypertrophy or strength development compared with supplementation at other times during the day. The purpose of this study was to examine the effects of supplement timing compared with supplementation in the hours not close to the workout on muscle-fiber hypertrophy, strength, and body composition during a 10-wk RE program. METHODS:: In a single-blind, randomized protocol, resistance-trained males were matched for strength and placed into one of two groups; the PRE-POST group consumed a supplement (1 g.kg body weight) containing protein/creatine/glucose immediately before and after RE. The MOR-EVE group consumed the same dose of the same supplement in the morning and late evening. All assessments were completed the week before and after 10 wk of structured, supervised RE training. Assessments included strength (1RM, three exercises), body composition (DEXA), and vastus lateralis muscle biopsies for determination of muscle fiber type (I, IIa, IIx), cross-sectional area (CSA), contractile protein, creatine (Cr), and glycogen content. RESULTS:: PRE-POST demonstrated a greater (P &lt; 0.05) increase in lean body mass and 1RM strength in two of three assessments. The changes in body composition were supported by a greater (P &lt; 0.05) increase in CSA of the type II fibers and contractile protein content. PRE-POST supplementation also resulted in higher muscle Cr and glycogen values after the training program (P &lt; 0.05). CONCLUSION:: Supplement timing represents a simple but effective strategy that enhances the adaptations desired from RE-training.
PMID: 17095924 [PubMed - in process]
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Did you find it on the web ? Could you please tell me the address ?</div>

Sorry Andrea, it is a local thing here in South Africa, a rather small shop called Healthshop 500 that sells all kinds of herabal medicines as well as suplements, the protein in question is Soth Africa too called suplementssa.

If I find something worth it i'd post it, however this site is not exactly the site to be advertising MRP's and other stuff!
 
peirre i think you are talking along the same lines as berardi in this link... http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nutrition/g-flux.htm
he also states that someone who eats and uses 6000cls
will have a better body composition than someone who eats and uses 3000cls.
i agree with this quit simply because the guy who eats 6000cls must be doing more physical activity than the guy using 3000cls.
if you wanted a muscular athletic type body then i agree with you.
but if you want to get really big bbr type( not assisted natural) then you have to eat more than maintanance,
if you were building a house you would use a certain amount of bricks,if you wanted to make the house bigger then you would need more bricks.
you cant produce muscle out of nothing and eating at maintanance all the time is nearly impossible,

as you gain or lose weight your maintanance goes up or down,also some days you will do more activitys than other days.

i like to work hard i think hard work gets results,and especially now i am 48 training 2 or 3 times a week i would just get fat also i dont expect massive muscle gains at my age.so doing weight sessions with plenty of cardio suits
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but if i were to give advice to a young bbr on bulking i would say work hard and eat plenty but cleanly.
 
Like Lol said, maintenance is just an estimation - hell, counting calories, no matter how meticuluous you are, is still just an estimation. So... not really possible to eat right at maintenance, and not really possible to eat only 200-300 over maintenance.

Also, anyone who has any real size and has been working out for a decent amount of time in a non-retarded fashion will not be able to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. Newbies and people who are smaller can usually do it for a period of time. Some small percentage of people following extremely radical diets have been known to somehow manage to increase strength while losing fat, which would suggest they have gained muscle, but it is rare.
Further, remember that if you increase muscle mass and your bodyfat percentage goes down, that does not necessarily mean that you lost fat. It could simply mean that you gained more muscle than fat, which would make your percentage go down, when in reality no fat mass was lost.
 
I went the same road as LOL for years, and read many discussions about this in different forums. Noobs and 'Roiders aside, the general consensus has always come out (in the more intelligently run threads) that for the average lifter, training smart, that the best way is to slow bulk, slow cut.
EVERYTIME I try to build on maintenance, that's all I do; maintain or actually gain a little fat. Any changes at all are virtually unnoticable and therefore a waste of my time. But as stated, the body loves to remain in stasis.

For those of us who have differing energy requirements from day to day, staying above maintenance insures us that we don't catabolise on the busy days as well.
 
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(Totentanz @ Nov. 24 2006,09:29)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Also, anyone who has any real size and has been working out for a decent amount of time in a non-retarded fashion will not be able to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time.  </div>
read the article I posted above.if you can´t get it PM me and I will send it to you.
Look through the Scientific literature and you will find that it is possible and it is something that occurs. As I stated in my original post, I specifically left out BBers who want to get on the stage as they more often than not, will be on roids.
 
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(drpierredebs @ Nov. 24 2006,03:58)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Buy a mountain bike, train riding this bike uphill in low gears and watch how your LBM, notably in your legs, increases and your fat melts away, at the same time eat a normal diet with approximately 30-35% of your energy intake from protein-and prove it to yourself.</div>
I think that is the problem. You are talking about people who don't have much muscle mass and who don't have bodies that have already adapted to exercise. There is a big difference between someone who is &quot;fairly strong&quot; and an experienced bodybuilder, even one that has never used drugs. I think that if I did your bicycle experiment that my endurance in biking would improve dramatically, and I&quot;d also lose a ton of size in my quads, hamstrings, and at least a little in my calves. Of course, I do not not know this is as fact, but I suspect that's what would happen.

Do you believe that simultaneous fat loss and LBM gain is possible for almost anyone, as long as they don't do drugs ?
 
wow, this topic really took off from when i first saw it. a lot of good info and opinions on both sides.

for me, all i can say is i go with the one method im 100% certain is effective. eating over maint. with a moderatly clean/healthy diet but yet one that allows me to gain @1 lb a week while lifting. no crazy calorie counts or diets filled with pizza and chips etc looking for 2-3-5 lbs a week. my muscles do grow (some quicker then others) as does my waistline (slowly) but in the past i have spent yrs not/slowly growing due to poor w/o, diets, insufficient cals for long enough, to much activity/cardio etc. now to me that is the definition of &quot;wasting time&quot;.

now this has been from my exper. and after all these yrs i keep my own counsel as to whats going to work for me. along with that though is the realization that whats best for me may not be the best for others. drpierre you are a good example of this. it sounds like youve got something thats really working well for you.....id stick with it.

im just not sure you can advise the end of the need for &quot;bulking and cutting&quot; in the traditional sense b/c of the results your having with your program/lifestyle.

i see 3-5 posts a month with the headline CANT GAIN WGT OR SIZE. on the other hand ive only ever seen one that said eat at maint. and gain muscle-lose fat. (you all remember that J-reps guy). anyway i just dont think the answer for those folks is to &quot;eat normally, ride a mtn bike and watch the LBM go up and the fat go down&quot; (oversimpification)

interesting stuff none the less.
 
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(stevejones @ Nov. 24 2006,14:26)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(drpierredebs @ Nov. 24 2006,03:58)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Buy a mountain bike, train riding this bike uphill in low gears and watch how your LBM, notably in your legs, increases and your fat melts away, at the same time eat a normal diet with approximately 30-35% of your energy intake from protein-and prove it to yourself.</div>
I think that is the problem.  You are talking about people who don't have much muscle mass and who don't have bodies that have already adapted to exercise.  There is a big difference between someone who is &quot;fairly strong&quot; and an experienced bodybuilder, even one that has never used drugs.  I think that if I did your bicycle experiment that my endurance in biking would improve dramatically, and I&quot;d also lose a ton of size in my quads, hamstrings, and at least a little in my calves.  Of course, I do not not know this is as fact, but I suspect that's what would happen.  

Do you believe that simultaneous fat loss and LBM gain is possible for almost anyone, as long as they don't do drugs ?</div>
You see those legs in my avatar? Those are 75% from mountain biking.
As far as who I was talking about..I wasn´t talking about BBrs I think I made that pretty clear.

again, tha data is out there to support the fact that a human being , even with a bunch of muscle, can lose fat and pack on LBM.

and Yes, I believe 100% that given the right nutrition and exercise program, any helathly person can lose body fat and gain LBM at the same time. Without drugs.
 
In all these studies saying fat loss + muscle gain is possible at the same time wouldnt you wanna compare the amount of muscle gain during those diets to diets in other studies where the people were solely focused on muscle gain and put on some fat also.
From the very few studies ive seen in the past where both happened the people allowing some fat gain always put on a significant amount more lean mass than those losing fat at the same time.
In the end surely if your body is catabolic &amp; breaking down fat enough of the time for it to be noticable theres also a large chance that its going to be breaking down muscle also which is going to limit gains.  
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You made it clear that it didn't apply to bodybuilders who are doing drugs. You never said anything about natural bodybuilders. Eating at &quot;maintenance&quot; or &quot;around maintenance&quot; and building muscle simultaneously won't work for at least 20 members on this board who are natural and maybe more, simply because they have already been working out for at least a year or two and are no longer new to this.

These are your legs, correct ?
http://img481.imageshack.us/img481/7946/uploadedleghe0.jpg

Try putting at least 3 more inches on those quads while you eat at what you think is maintenance or slightly above maintenance. I'd also challenge you to put 3 more inches on those quads while eating as much as you want and doing nothing but bicycle riding. It ain't gonna happen. So, I'll just leave this alone.
 
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(drpierredebs @ Nov. 24 2006,17:56)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
You see those legs in my avatar? Those are 75% from mountain biking.</div>
Stop tha music! Stop tha music! I seem to remember seeing a certain picture somewhere in this website that was NOT stretched horizontally. It was THAT picture, and the legs did NOT look very big at all! I thought that was a stretch the first time I saw it.

Happy to say that my av is straight square. Fat gut and all!!!
 
hehe..

everybody has their own study case in mind, so trying to come to an agreeable conclusion would be kinda imposible. )

I think Pierre's study is talking about providing the body with &quot;The Optimal&quot; amount of nutrition at &quot;The Right Time&quot; and switching to &quot;Maintainance Diet&quot; when the body _Does NOT Need_ extra calories (ex. before bedtime). So its more about &quot;Optimizing&quot;.

too much generalization IMHO.
 
My avatar was compressed, not by me but by some computer thing between uploading and posting as my avatar.and I believe I mentioned this right after it happened a while back. As you see form the linked photo, I didn´t compress.

Yes that was my leg 6 months ago, why? I am 6´2&quot; and my legs are long.
I have 17 inch arms but they look uminpressive because I have long arms.
I haven´t measured my legs.

What´s your point?

I said as my second sentence in the original post &quot; Now I am proposing this for everyone not on steroids and those who are not BB for competition although I would bet it would apply to the latter with alterations. &quot;

You are reading things into the purpose of my article.

Cheers,

Pierre
 
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(Joe.Muscle @ Nov. 25 2006,09:35)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Someone just got owned!!!!
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what does this mean?
 
If you can't lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, I wonder how I went from 170 pounds at 18% bf to 185 pounds at 9% bf in 18 months on a constant 250 caloric surplus changing away from a high carb diet to a protein/good fats diet? My math shows that being a loss of fat of 14 pounds and a gain of muscle of 29 pounds. And, this was before I started HRT. With HRT I find I can eat almost any kind of diet and maintain the same bf and weight. Were I to do that same diet again now, I am sure the gains would continue but I don't really want to get any bigger. At some point, you just don't look good in clothes anymore.  
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