Doing away with bulking and cutting

[imported_drpierredebs]

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(Old and Grey @ Nov. 25 2006,10:46)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If you can't lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, I wonder how I went from 170 pounds at 18% bf to 185 pounds at 9% bf in 18 months on a constant 250 caloric surplus changing away from a high carb diet to a protein/good fats diet? My math shows that being a loss of fat of 14 pounds and a gain of muscle of 29 pounds. And, this was before I started HRT. With HRT I find I can eat almost any kind of diet and maintain the same bf and weight. Were I to do that same diet again now, I am sure the gains would continue but I don't really want to get any bigger. At some point, you just don't look good in clothes anymore.    

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to wit!

 

[Joe.Muscle]

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(drpierredebs @ Nov. 25 2006,10:05)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Joe.Muscle @ Nov. 25 2006,09:35)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Someone just got owned!!!!

 

 

 

 

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what does this mean?</div>
Just having a sense of humour over the avatar...nothing nothing more!

 

[imported_drpierredebs]

I know It was in jest, but I don´t understand the joke.
Just being friendly

 

[style]

Right Im kind of confused over this thread. We all agree that to gain WEIGHT you've got to eat at a calorie surplus right? I have recently gone from 210--224 while gaining definition in my abs.

 

[lcars]

lbm can increase while fat decreases,it is just not a very practical way of gaining mass,the mechanisms by which fat is lost and muscle is gained are seperate to some degree.

 

[Lifting N Tx]

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(Old and Grey @ Nov. 25 2006,09:46)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If you can't lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, I wonder how I went from 170 pounds at 18% bf to 185 pounds at 9% bf in 18 months on a constant 250 caloric surplus changing away from a high carb diet to a protein/good fats diet?</div>
That is a fantastic result! style's result is impressive as well.

If you can invent some fancy machine, use yourself as the &quot;poster boy&quot;, hire some fitness models to pretend to use it while acting like it requires no effort and only 5 minutes a day, you should make a fortune!

Seriously, after reading all this and many other discussions, most agree that it is very hard to put on LBM with a caloric deficit. Maybe a very controlled slight surplus is the best bet for actually losing fat while still adding some muscle. I'm pretty sure it's still a very individual thing. It seems like it's a lot tougher for someone already at a low body fat %.

I've been bulking, and am at a high %, probably well into the 20s. I hate to put strength and lbm gains on hold, though. I may slowly decrease calorie intake and see if I can get to a point where I can very slowly lose fat while continuing to add LBM, probably with a very slow increase in body weight. If strength gains stop I'll just have to go to a cut.

 

[Bulldog]

I believe that you can eat at maintenance and add LBM and lose BF at the same time if you are at a high BF% or you are just starting training.  I believe this is true even if you are a highly trained athlete or BB'er with a high BF level (15%+).

Now, that being said, at some point you will reach a level of BF and LBM that YOUR body considers a comfortable level and progress will come to a screaching halt!  For some people that may be 12% BF and for others that may be 8% BF.  But at some point progress will halt and you will need to increase your calories to add any more LBM.  And I doubt that anyone would ever get below about 8 or 9% before their body says enough is enough.

But I think O&amp;G hit the nail on the head on the best way to keep adding LBM and limiting BF.  I belive that utilizing a CKD type of diet slightly above maintenance is the way to accomplish this.  You just need to find out how much over maintenance your body is the most efficent at adding LBM and keeping BF at bay. Obviously this will not be the fastest way to add LBM but you won't have to cut much when you get closer to the weight you are shooting for.

 

[quadancer]

O&amp;G, you answered your own question in the same sentence. You changed fuels. I tried this very same thing when I started having joint problems with the MN program, adding fats and cutting carbs, and I it didn't work for me except to help my joints and memory. I was on an almost nofat diet. But I made no muscle gains from it. You did.

Pierre, I'm not a post flamer, but when you used your stretched avatar as a reference to 'prove' your point, I couldn't sit still, nor could Steve. But you've started a really interesting thread that has been very educational. I also don't like people using 'roiders pics for avatars...unless maybe they actually LOOK like that!

Synopsis: We're all friends who agree to disagree! Peace, my brothers!

 

[Joe.Muscle]

For the most part the studies, theories and overall expierence that I have seen for 12 + years of training is that all the information here at HST and anywhere esle that is a good source of information is right 80 to 90 % of the time.

So in other words a surplus in calories is a must for 80 to 90 people out of 100 to grow.

A fullbody routine is supior over a training Split on 80 to 90 people out of 100.

Creatine works great on prob 80 to 90 people of of 100....etc.

You get my point.

There is always that guys who doesn't eat and does the stupidest overtraining bodypart split and still get huge.

But for 80 to 90 percent of the peeps reading this, it just want happen.

What funny is we all seem to think that we are that other 10 % when in reality maybe 1 person or 2 on this form could fall into that category.

I think its safe to say that in order to gain weight there must be a surplus of calories period!

Now can you reduce fat and gain muscle at the same time?

I think the answer to that would be you can if....you are on steroids....you are a noob to training....or guess what you fall into that other 20 to 10 percent that are gifted.

There is this idea of watching the pro bodbuilders and using them for advice...and that is prob the worst thing you can do.

Look Bryan has already done the great research....so re read the forum.

He clearly states that it better to bulk or to cut...but don't do both.

Now bulking and cutting is seen different from everyone point of view.

What one guys may call a bulk might look like a cut to someone else.

My point being...that if you are in the majority of the population you most likely will need to eat a surplus of calories (500 or more above maintenance ) to gain some muscle.

I am not sure how much protein you need...b/c again there does seem to be some truth to what Dr. is saying.

For example when teenagers workout hard the get bigger and more cut...and we all know that the average teenager eats like crap and does not get protein adequatly and does not get 6 meals a day.

Realistically the average high school guy eats maybe 2 to 3 times a day of crap like pizza...and these guys still grow.

How do you explain that??? the hell if I no?

But I do know that as you get older you have to follow the rules of eating and lifting closer and closer.

 

[Lifting N Tx]

Excellent post, Joe.

There are too many factors and too many individual differences for most hard and fast rules to be true all the time.

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(Joe.Muscle @ Nov. 25 2006,14:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Now bulking and cutting is seen different from everyone point of view. What one guys may call a bulk might look like a cut to someone else.
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Another good point. I note that both O&amp;G and style were gaining weight, so running a calorie surplus, even though they managed to get rid of some fat in the process while gaining LBM.

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(Joe.Muscle @ Nov. 25 2006,14:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
Realistically the average high school guy eats maybe 2 to 3 times a day of crap like pizza...and these guys still grow.

How do you explain that??? the hell if I no?
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Teen age test levels are the next best thing to steroids?

Add a caloric surplus and even half way decent training and you get gains.

 

[Joe.Muscle]

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(Lifting N Tx @ Nov. 25 2006,16:03)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Teen age test levels are the next best thing to steroids?

Add a caloric surplus and even half way decent training and you get gains.</div>
Amen brother...I wish I could go back to them days!

 

[bluejacket]

good post joe.

especially the part about everyones perspective on cut/bulk is different and the 80-90% of the time stuff. it sounds simplistic and to some perhaps a cop out but that doesnt make it untrue. the idea is to find what works (and what doesnt) for you and use what does to reach your goals instead of using what doesnt as an excuse.

 

[JonnyH]

Makes me wonder though.

As has been mentioned before on this board, if you were to do morning cardio on an empty stomach (drinking a protein shake before hand so there was protein in the bloodstream already, which i would assume would lower/end the risk of muscle being broken down) you would still be burning mainly fat as protein has been shown to have no effect on fat oxidization during exercise unlike carbs.

If you were to then eat a surplus of calories as usual...how would this not lower your increase in fat?  

 

 

Ive read that the body simply balances itself out and just ends up burning more glycogen the rest of the day.
But how would this work? If your starting out with a very small amount of glycogen anyway, your body then turns more of the digested carbs into fat than usual instead of glycogen...you'd still have a lower level of glycogen and your body would be burning a higher % of fat than usual.

 

[Totentanz]

Regardless of what results guys here have gotten, the truth is that the vast majority of trainees are not going to be able to accomplish this. This is why we see people posting so very often about how they are not making any progress - because they try to do both things at the same time. If it works for you, good for you, but realize that it will not apply to the average trainee.

 

[Cova]

So basically you have to get fat to gain muscle? I don't mean go on a SEE-FOOD diet, but you need to eat around 250-700 calories greater than what your daily activities+your BMR turns out to be? One guy told me that there is not a way to build large amounts of muscle without bulking unless you are taking steroids.

Is there even a point to doing cardio when you are trying to build muscle, unless you overshot your surplus by a lot?

I have gone from being able to pinch about half an inch to being able to pinch an inch.

How long should a bulk time be and is it really necissary to bulk up if you want to gain huge amounts of muscle within a year.  I am only 17, so are teenage years the better time to bulk since the test and gh levels are so high?

 

[lcars]

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(Cova @ Nov. 25 2006,23:11)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So basically you have to get fat to gain muscle? I don't mean go on a SEE-FOOD diet, but you need to eat around 250-700 calories greater than what your daily activities+your BMR turns out to be? One guy told me that there is not a way to build large amounts of muscle without bulking unless you are taking steroids.

Is there even a point to doing cardio when you are trying to build muscle, unless you overshot your surplus by a lot?

I have gone from being able to pinch about half an inch to being able to pinch an inch.

How long should a bulk time be and is it really necissary to bulk up if you want to gain huge amounts of muscle within a year.  I am only 17, so are teenage years the better time to bulk since the test and gh levels are so high?</div>
all i can say is that cardio and other exercises will compromise gains one way or another,Totentanz(in a nutshell) says theres no point doing both if you are looking for mass and i agree.it is guess work,you take your best shot at consuming the correct number of maintainence or surplus callories you can.

with so many different metabolisms,test levels,body types and diets out there,people are never going to see the same results all of the time but a pattern does emerge.

and as far as bulking length is concerned it depends on what your goals are and how you are responding to training now.to gain real mass some fat is inevitable but one thing to remember is that when you are cutting some lbm is lost also.so you have to weigh up if its better to have a seefood diet or to eat as little extra callories as possible,just enough to grow,this is why i say lean bulk.but in the end time and results will let you know which direction to take.

the more diet and training xp you have the more you can fine tune your diet to suit whatever you want to accomplish.

 

[Joe.Muscle]

If you are 17 and are overeating along with HST.

Add a little creatine and sit back and watch yourself blow up!

 

[imported_drpierredebs]

I am not trying to be an a-hole,but I get the impression from reading many of the responses that comprehension was a little lacking.

I keep re-reading what I wrote and I am trying to find out where I went wrong in explaining what I thought. I will keep trying.


No bad will on my part. Just peace.

 

[vagrant]

Adding to the discussion about cardio. Giving up cardio for a bulker was the worst mistake I ever made. Sure I gained 30lbs in a very short period of time. Sure I lowered my BF% because FFM gained faster than FM. But my overall level of fitness decreased.

It's not good to get out of breath doing a set of squats. When your cardiovascular fitness is in order, you are better equipped to gain muscle. Now I'm doing HIIT 2x a week in my KF practice and bag work to get my cardio back where it needs to be. No more long endurance training for now, just get the heart pumping and get into fighting shape again.

I've got a fight coming up and am in no way ready for it considering my opponent is damn good with more experience and if he gets me on the ground...I'm dead. As hard as I'm busting my ass to get my cardio conditioning back, I'll still have to go for a KO in the first few seconds to survive.

Like I said, skipping cardio was the worst mistake I ever made. From now on, I'm doing cardio and eating to support it for bulking.

Now for the bulking idea. No, you don't have to become obese to bulk because the amount of cutting needed will also burn up your muscle at about a 50/50 ratio with your fat. In the end, you'll gain 30 or 40lbs, lose it and have maybe 2-5lbs of muscle gains at the end.

Just do a long, slow, lean bulk and a 2-3 month TCD or LCD every year or two to spare muscle and burn the fat quickly then get back to lean bulking. That means just enough caloric surplus to gain muscle without getting too fat. If you get it right, even though you will gain some fat, your FFM will increase more than your FM and your BF% will actually go down.

Good luck my friends, don't give up your cardio, and keep your gains lean.

 

[Cova]

HOLY ****!!!!!!! If you can give a a read on how the 50 fat 50 muscle decrease when you cut then i am gonna cut before i try to gain anymore and go back to tiny gains each month.

I have sparring matches and I have noticed less endurance just by bulking up.