Doing away with bulking and cutting

Discussion in 'Hypertrophy-Specific Training (HST)' started by imported_drpierredebs, Nov 23, 2006.

  1. People, don´t forget that comparing bodies within a given population, metabolism and response to training and nutrition can be partly described as a stochastic!

    In my mind, clean foods are only those that cultivated without growth hormones and other chemicals, are not deep fired and overall contain less saturated. People who take in the majority of their nutrients from "Clean" take in less because of the absence of saturated fats.

    Clean food does nothing for your metabolism per se, it is the LACK of chemicals and fat which is the "healthi-ness" of clean foods. I see a LOT of overweight people with shopping wagons FULL of "Clean Foods".
     
  2. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    This is *almost* appropriate in this thread! [​IMG]

    Bulk or Cut?
     
  3. bluejacket

    bluejacket New Member

    <div>
    (scientific muscle @ Dec. 13 2006,17:12)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">OK, I give up.  Obviously you are right.
    [​IMG]</div>
    ha ha sci. i bailed about a week ago after 4-5 posts didnt seem to make much of an impression.

    im not a very good repository of &quot;scientific/factual data&quot; myself so i try to stay away from those types of debates and try not to be too critical of (or impressed by) those who engage in them (especially if i think they are wrong).

    cova has big plans for dieting, clean eating, and working out to achieve his goals. ive made it clear (as have others) that some of his theories/strategies appear flawed and will most likely end in frustration and disappointment but he seems set on his path so i say good luck and leave it at that.

    live and learn.
     
  4. Cova

    Cova New Member

    Guys...i didn't mean to create any tension or anything. This is basically the point I was trying to make, i just kinda suck with words:

    &quot;Many so-called pencil-neck nutrition experts will tell you that a calorie is simply a calorie. Believe me, there is a huge difference on how your body metabolizes sugar laden, chemical infested chocolate bars or a super high nutrient megabolic shake.Think about what happens when you put cheap gas in a Ferrari?The car spits and sputters and barely drives down the road if it even runs at all. Think of your body's metabolism is like the engine of a car. Although you can get by on cheap gas if you drive a crappy car, no one is ever going to take a second look at you. If you want your body too run like a crappy car, then, by all means, keep eating crap because that is all you need to get down the street. If you want your body to perform like a Ferrari, you must put the best gas in it you can. &quot;

    The calorie stays the same regardless-it is the way they are digested when introduced with crap that we have problems.

    I will get my sources later, I have finals and projects for school.... [​IMG]
     
  5. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Think of your body's metabolism is like the engine of a car.</div>

    Yes, but it isn't like it at all. It's so much more sophisticated you wouldn't believe it! Think of it more like the DeLorean at the end of Back to the Future I where it had it's flux capacitor charged by that waste recycler doody thang. Put in crap and it still goes like stink! [​IMG]
     
  6. mikeynov

    mikeynov Super Moderator Staff Member

    <div>
    (Cova @ Dec. 14 2006,17:23)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Guys...i didn't mean to create any tension or anything. This is basically the point I was trying to make, i just kinda suck with words:

    &quot;Many so-called pencil-neck nutrition experts will tell you that a calorie is simply a calorie. Believe me, there is a huge difference on how your body metabolizes sugar laden, chemical infested chocolate bars or a super high nutrient megabolic shake.Think about what happens when you put cheap gas in a Ferrari?The car spits and sputters and barely drives down the road if it even runs at all. Think of your body's metabolism is like the engine of a car. Although you can get by on cheap gas if you drive a crappy car, no one is ever going to take a second look at you. If you want your body too run like a crappy car, then, by all means, keep eating crap because that is all you need to get down the street. If you want your body to perform like a Ferrari, you must put the best gas in it you can. &quot;

    The calorie stays the same regardless-it is the way they are digested when introduced with crap that we have problems.

    I will get my sources later, I have finals and projects for school.... [​IMG]</div>
    The problem is that most comparisons of &quot;clean&quot; to &quot;not clean&quot; foods change almost every possible variable, rendering the comparisons useless.

    So people compare stuff like &quot;a bowl of oats&quot; to a pizza. That comparison is stupid.

    But what happens if you substitute out, carb for carb and calorie for calorie, white rice with brown rice, or something along those lines?

    In terms of body composition, you know what happens? Nothing.

    So eating &quot;clean&quot; works in the sense that you are eating foods that tend to be nutrient dense and fulfill your intended macros of protein/carbs/fat. But you can still fulfill those requirements using &quot;unclean&quot; foods if you simply factor it into the intended macros/calories.

    Note that there are other health concerns that cannot be addressed by simply looking at body recomposition issues (e.g. havings lots of veggies/fruit = more phytonutrients, useful in helping prevent certain types of cancer yada yada yada).
     
  7. bgates1654

    bgates1654 New Member

    IMO the problem Cova's having is that he sucks in all this garbage misinformation that is so prevalent in the BB arena like we all did when we were young.  He's just naive becuase of his age.  He wont listen, again, because of his age.  He thinks he knows it all, yet again, becuase of his age.  At that age, in general, you just have to learn the hard way.  

    So, Cova, my advice to you, even though I am sure you will not heed it, is do a lot less posting, a lot more reading and researching, and keep an open mind.  Learn to differentiate the garbage from the information that has substance.  This involves critical thinking, which is probably fairly new to you at your age.  God knows high school doesnt help in this area.  I know it was for me.  However, the more you do it, the easier it gets, and the more you will get out of it.  It makes life, as a whole, a lot easier in the long run.

    By the way, that long winded simile you posted is a good example of garbage information dressed up to sound good. I am sure that comes from an advertisement of some kind or from a magazine with ghost writers who in general know jack ****.
     
  8. Cova

    Cova New Member

    I understand everything you just said except the last statement....

    How is that garbage when there is significant proof of it?
    I myself am operating more efficiently than i ever have by not feeding myself junk from the isles in the grocery store.

    I know there are other guys on this forum that can back this statement up as i have even seen it posted by others in the forum.

    I know the amount of calories muscle burns i stated was naive, but the fact that &quot;you are what you eat&quot; is more accurate that you'd think.
     
  9. colby2152

    colby2152 New Member

    Clean vs. Dirty foods is more concerned with nutrient density.

    A bottle of Jim Beam is dirty!
     
  10. FireFighter

    FireFighter New Member

    I've found the older I get the harder it seems to be to dropping those mid-section pounds. I'm gonna stick to the gaining of a pound or two a month at best and try to keep a sleek physique. I enjoy seeing my abs too much and my last bulking cycle had me down to a 4 pack for abs.
     
  11. middlleagedguy

    middlleagedguy New Member

    here's a great article from T-nation on this topic by Christian Thibadeaux: http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1268956. He comes to the conclusion that bulking and cutting is not a good idea, especially not the massive &quot;eat everything that moves&quot; to bulk and then doing massive cutting that many pro bodybuilders use. This is especially true for natural BB'ers (like myself) who lose a lot more muscle when cutting than if you're taking steroids and clenbuterol.
    I do admit that I don't always gain as much as I could because I try to stay lean, but I would rather err on the side of less fat. This is even more true now that I'm 52, and it's just not that easy to lose fat any more! [​IMG]
    Paul
     
  12. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    Amen.
    Hey, Firefighter!...I'd love to see my four pack again soon!
     
  13. Bulldog

    Bulldog Active Member

    <div>
    (colby2152 @ Dec. 14 2006,21:34)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">A bottle of Jim Beam is dirty!</div>
    WHAT? THAT explains a LOT! [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  14. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    <div>
    (middlleagedguy @ Dec. 14 2006,22:54)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">here's a great article from T-nation on this topic by Christian Thibadeaux: http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1268956. He comes to the conclusion that bulking and cutting is not a good idea, especially not the massive &quot;eat everything that moves&quot; to bulk and then doing massive cutting that many pro bodybuilders use. This is especially true for natural BB'ers (like myself) who lose a lot more muscle when cutting than if you're taking steroids and clenbuterol.
    I do admit that I don't always gain as much as I could because I try to stay lean, but I would rather err on the side of less fat. This is even more true now that I'm 52, and it's just not that easy to lose fat any more! [​IMG]
    Paul</div>
    Yeah, we've all seen that one before. Problem is that Thib himself got big by bulking up a lot and then cutting down... sure, massive bulking and massive cutting is bad, but bulking to about 15% and cutting down to about 10% bodyfat is the most effective way for a natural trainee to build significant mass.
     
  15. Cova

    Cova New Member

    That is exactly what i am doing. I am going on a modified velocity diet. http://www.megaupload.com/?d=32LFO5CV

    Dietary foods
    21 gnc salmon oil caps
    5x 3/4 servings of muscle milk from the tub
    1 small muscle milk ready to go
    4 servings of milled flax seeds

    As for fat burning as muscle-loss-prevention:GAT Jet Fuel(thermogenic)-possibly one of the best
    Forskolin-10.5 mg bioavailble
    ZMA+Tribulus Terrestris
    Novadex XT...maybe
    Chromium Picolinate
    2000g split up of L-carnitine

    The total caloric intake is about 300 more than his calculations but...with all things considered; i am 17....my metabolism is going to go through the roof.

    I will let you guys know how it turns out. After the 4 weeks i will slowly increase my caloric intake while running on green+white tea stimulants for two monthes so I do not gain a whole bunch of fat back.

    BTW....www.volumenutrition.com is better than ebay for the items that they do sell. And shipping is free or 3 dollars for priority 1-3 day shipping. I did that and got mine in 2 days. They even personally sign a thankyou &lt;insert name here&gt; with your shipping info.


    Wish me luck! [​IMG]
     
  16. scientific muscle

    scientific muscle New Member

    Good luck!...paying for all those supplements. [​IMG]
     
  17. scientific muscle

    scientific muscle New Member

    I am also on a diet. It consists mostly of organic matter.
     
  18. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    <div>
    (scientific muscle @ Dec. 17 2006,04:56)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I am also on a diet.  It consists mostly of organic matter.</div>
    [​IMG]  [​IMG]

    Hey what's the inorganic part then? The plastic wrapper on the protein bar that you couldn't be bothered to unwrap? Hardcore!  [​IMG]  [​IMG]

    But wait! Plastic is organic polymer stuff. I'm stumped.
     
  19. quadancer

    quadancer New Member

    Well, there's margarine. It's only one molecule removed from being plastic. I read you can sit a bowl of it out in your garage for a couple of months and it won't even mold!
     
  20. <div>
    (Cova @ Dec. 16 2006,23:48)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">That is exactly what i am doing. I am going on a modified velocity diet. http://www.megaupload.com/?d=32LFO5CV

    Dietary foods
    21 gnc salmon oil caps
    5x 3/4 servings of muscle milk from the tub
    1 small muscle milk ready to go
    4 servings of milled flax seeds

    As for fat burning as muscle-loss-prevention:GAT Jet Fuel(thermogenic)-possibly one of the best
    Forskolin-10.5 mg bioavailble
    ZMA+Tribulus Terrestris
    Novadex XT...maybe
    Chromium Picolinate
    2000g split up of L-carnitine

    The total caloric intake is about 300 more than his calculations but...with all things considered; i am 17....my metabolism is going to go through the roof.

    I will let you guys know how it turns out. After the 4 weeks i will slowly increase my caloric intake while running on green+white tea stimulants for two monthes so I do not gain a whole bunch of fat back.

    BTW....www.volumenutrition.com is better than ebay for the items that they do sell. And shipping is free or 3 dollars for priority 1-3 day shipping. I did that and got mine in 2 days. They even personally sign a thankyou &lt;insert name here&gt; with your shipping info.


    Wish me luck!  [​IMG]</div>
    Your 17 year old liver will be very happy with you. [​IMG]

    For the third time i will say, buy a bike and ride it hard for 2 hours 3x a week and you will lose the fat. faster than swallowing those chemicals.

    but hey, it is your body.
     

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