"Eating fat makes you fat"

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(colby2152 @ May 09 2008,10:05)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">...
Overeating results in gained weight regardless of the macro nutrient make up.</div>
Check stevejones' low carb log. I posted a link to a similar experiment. It will give an insight into stevejones' own experiment but also into the subject of this thread.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">These are also assumptions. We are biased on our judgment of people. We see somebody obese, we immediately think &quot;he's eating too much&quot;. It doesn't matter how much he actually eats, he eats too much. We don't question that he eats too much, we simply accept it as a fact of being obese. He is obese, therefore he eats too much. And so when he tells us that he, in fact, doesn't eat too much but instead counts his calories every day, we don't believe him. Or if we do, we tell him it's not working so he should cut more calories. When he tells us that he walks so many minutes every day, we don't believe him. Or if we do, we tell him it's not working so he should walk more.</div>

okay, when i said that, i didn't mean to imply that obese people are currently eating too much and aren't exercising, i meant they are obese because of these factors previously occurring, i do not make assumptions. rarely anyways ;) sorry if i made it sound as though obese people always eat heaps and do not much, there are of course genetic barriers also which we haven't discussed much. I meant to say that these variables of 1. eating too much and 2. not enough activity, cause obesity, rather than say that obese people have these personal characteristics presently in their lives.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Is he obese because he doesn't exercise enough? Or does he stay at home doing nothing because he is obese?

Is he obese because he overeats? Or does he overeat because he is obese?</div>

well, one cannot overeat 'because they are obese' if they're NOT obese, so overeating comes first, as does not exercising. And then the cycle may continue in the way you describe, the obesity FURTHER causing overeating and lack of activity. But these factors first.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
If you're doing fine on a high carb diet, obviously a high carb diet works for you. But if you are doing fine on a high carb diet this only means you are not so sensitive to carbs. It doesn't mean the rest of the world should do fine as well. Or even that you'll do fine for the rest of your life.</div>

But you've never mentioned previously that personal carb sensitivity was a cause of obesity, i was under the impression that you thought that ANYONE'S carb sensitivity could be the sole cause of obesity. IE anyone can become obese due to everyone's carb sensitivity being completely equal. Correct me if i'm wrong.

anyways, i'm goin to sleep now, we shall continue this discussion, feel free to keep postin peoples ;)
 
<div>
(Martin Levac @ May 09 2008,10:13)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(colby2152 @ May 09 2008,10:05)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">...
Overeating results in gained weight regardless of the macro nutrient make up.</div>
Check stevejones' low carb log. I posted a link to a similar experiment. It will give an insight into stevejones' own experiment but also into the subject of this thread.</div>
I have been reading that... is he not gaining weight?
 
<div>
(colby2152 @ May 09 2008,10:27)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Martin Levac @ May 09 2008,10:13)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(colby2152 @ May 09 2008,10:05)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">...
Overeating results in gained weight regardless of the macro nutrient make up.</div>
Check stevejones' low carb log. I posted a link to a similar experiment. It will give an insight into stevejones' own experiment but also into the subject of this thread.</div>
I have been reading that... is he not gaining weight?</div>
By his account, he is. So what's the cause of his weight gain? Is it total calories, the salt and water or muscle or misreporting or what? What about the other experiment, did he gain weight? Compare the two experiments' total caloric intake versus the two guys' body weight.
 
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(_Simon_ @ May 09 2008,10:18)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">...
well, one cannot overeat 'because they are obese' if they're NOT obese, so overeating comes first, as does not exercising. And then the cycle may continue in the way you describe, the obesity FURTHER causing overeating and lack of activity. But these factors first.
...</div>
That still doesn't tell us why they overeat. Also, it still doesn't tell how overeating makes them grow fat. We can invoke the PCB hypothesis but that still doesn't tell us how eating too much food somehow affects our metabolism so that some surplus amount of food is arbitrarily selected for adipose storage. What's the agent that does the selection, insulin, ASP, some other hormone we don't know about?

It doesn't tell us either why they don't exercise. Could it be they lack energy to do so? If so, why do they lack energy? Could it be the food they eat doesn't provide them with the energy they would need to exercise?

Could it be that the food they eat both makes them fat and doesn't give them the energy to exercise? Carbohydrates will do that. Especially for a person who is highly insulin resistant. As it happens, obesity is a result of insulin resistance. Lack of energy is also a result of insulin resistance.
 
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(Martin Levac @ May 09 2008,10:30)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(colby2152 @ May 09 2008,10:27)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Martin Levac @ May 09 2008,10:13)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(colby2152 @ May 09 2008,10:05)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">...
Overeating results in gained weight regardless of the macro nutrient make up.</div>
Check stevejones' low carb log. I posted a link to a similar experiment. It will give an insight into stevejones' own experiment but also into the subject of this thread.</div>
I have been reading that... is he not gaining weight?</div>
By his account, he is. So what's the cause of his weight gain? Is it total calories, the salt and water or muscle or misreporting or what? What about the other experiment, did he gain weight? Compare the two experiments' total caloric intake versus the two guys' body weight.</div>
Did Jeff do a cardio free experiment while on low carb?  I can't find any posts in that thread where he refers to cardio.  I have, however, seen some other posts of his in that forum where he talks about running for 13.5 miles on a treadmill.   That's some extreme crap right there.  

As I recall, Jeff did this experiment for...a month, consumed MANY more calories than maintenance, and gained one pound.  I'm eating slightly more than maintenance, and I feel like I'm gaining a ton of weight.  Doesn't make sense to me.  I think Jeff's bodyfat is not more than 10 % below mine (you can't see his abs....and I have a TON more muscle than he does.   I am also consuming zero carbs now (unless you count the minute portions you get from cheese).  Seems like it would be easy for me to lose fat on this diet (going by his experiment).  

I weighed myself this morning (couldn't help myself, I just feel fat), and I weighed 285.  So far, I'm leaning toward the conclusion that the difference between Jeff and I is that he's a pipsqueak runner who burns massive amounts of calories, and I'm a fatfluck powerlifter who burns little calories.

I'd also like to add that I'm as strong as ever, and want to workout all the time.  I have to restrain myself at the gym while during the submax part of my hst cycles.  So, I'm pretty torn between the good and the bad on this diet.  I've never had so much energy while eating only 3200 calories per day.  
 
<div>
(_Simon_ @ May 09 2008,9:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">we're all learning here</div>
Uh no not really
 
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(Martin Levac @ May 09 2008,10:30)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">By his account, he is. So what's the cause of his weight gain? Is it total calories, the salt and water or muscle or misreporting or what? What about the other experiment, did he gain weight? Compare the two experiments' total caloric intake versus the two guys' body weight.</div>
Too funny
 
Martin sounds like a broken record. Beyond the essentials like protein, EFAs, vitamins and minerals, Calories are what matters when it comes to fat loss, we all agree except for him.  Oh well.
 
<div>
(stevejones @ May 09 2008,2:21)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">...
I weighed myself this morning (couldn't help myself, I just feel fat), and I weighed 285. So far, I'm leaning toward the conclusion that the difference between Jeff and I is that he's a pipsqueak runner who burns massive amounts of calories, and I'm a fatfluck powerlifter who burns little calories.

I'd also like to add that I'm as strong as ever, and want to workout all the time. I have to restrain myself at the gym while during the submax part of my hst cycles. So, I'm pretty torn between the good and the bad on this diet. I've never had so much energy while eating only 3200 calories per day.</div>
I don't know that he is a pipsqueak. I don't know how many calories you burn. I trust you know what you need but I don't see how you can know what the other guy needs unless he told you. He didn't say in the thread so all I have, indeed all you have, is what's in the thread. Speculating that he is a runner is just that, speculation. It can't be a valid conclusion to explain the differences.

You say you have ample energy. Would you believe it then that one myth concerning low carb diets is the lack of energy? See nkl's post in this thread, he says so himself. He also says low carb will be catabolic. Another myth. Would you now believe this after you've just noted how much weight you gained?

Keep it up, you're doing fine.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">You say you have ample energy. Would you believe it then that one myth concerning low carb diets is the lack of energy? See nkl's post in this thread, he says so himself. He also says low carb will be catabolic. Another myth. Would you now believe this after you've just noted how much weight you gained?</div>
No, wouldn't believe it.    
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I don't know that he is a pipsqueak. I don't know how many calories you burn. I trust you know what you need but I don't see how you can know what the other guy needs unless he told you.......Speculating that he is a runner is just that, speculation. </div>
I've seen his picture.  He's not a bodybuilder.  The amount of muscle on his body resembles that of a marathon runner.  So, since I'm carrying substantially more muscle than he is, seems like I would burn far more calories...UNLESS, he is a runner, and he is.  Do you think I made up the fact that he ran 13.5 miles on a treadmill? He also has many other posts that talk about his running. That is not speculation.  He is a runner, and an avid one at that.  Someone doing that much cardio burns far more calories than I do.  Seems like a natural conclusion to draw when trying to figure out why he consumed so many more calories than I am and never gained. However, if he chose to not do cardio or did very little of it during this experiment...well, that would change everything.
 
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(stevejones @ May 09 2008,8:10)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">...
Seems like a natural conclusion to draw when trying to figure out why he consumed so many more calories than I am and never gained.</div>
What's the difference in total calories between your experiment and his?

He did say how many calories he would need with BMR calculation: 2200. You calculated your maintenance to 3200 calories. A difference of 1000 calories. he weighs 160, you weigh 280. Up to now, the numbers look OK. Let's compare the first week only since that's the point you're at now.

You: 1,790 kcals over maintenance for the first week.
Him: 15,576 kcals over maintenance for the first week.

Weight gain

You: +2 lbs.
Him: none, otherwise it would have registered at the end of the month.

Something is amiss and it's not his running and it's not your bodybuilding. 15,000 kcals is about 4lbs. 1790 kcals is half a pound. The math doesn't stick either way. He didn't gain 4 lbs and you gained more than half a pound. Questions arise. Where did his 15,000 calories go and where did you get the extra calories to gain 2lbs? These questions are fair game for the PCB hypothesis. We trust the figures so we can't blame reporting errors. The chance that you burn so few calories and that he burns so many is slim at best so we can safely say that's not the answer.

I could suggest a few things but I don't know if you'll take me seriously yet.
 
Martin...I have some questions about low/zero carb diets:

1.  Is there any way or need to incorporate a post-workout insulin spike to help aid in recovery and deliver nutrients quickly to muscle tissue?

2.  If not eating carbs, how is one supposed to get adequate fiber?

3.  What about the health benefits of fruits and vegetables?  Do you think it would be wise or healthy to completely exlude these food groups?

4.  How is this diet for maintaining muscle mass?  Some have mentioned personal experiences where muscle starts to waste as body fat gets extremely low.

5.  Aside from body fat, is this a healthy diet?  Most of us here are trying to be healthy and body fat is not the only measure of health.  

Thanks
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">That still doesn't tell us why they overeat. Also, it still doesn't tell how overeating makes them grow fat. We can invoke the PCB hypothesis but that still doesn't tell us how eating too much food somehow affects our metabolism so that some surplus amount of food is arbitrarily selected for adipose storage. What's the agent that does the selection, insulin, ASP, some other hormone we don't know about?</div>

any thoughts on this anyone? how DOES food get picked for adipose storage (how does the body pick which macronutrient, and what is the process?)? Martin is stating that is the carbs that get stored, or is it just all a bunch of energy in the end when it's going through digestion (after the specific macros have fulfilled their functions)?
 
<div>
(soflsun @ May 09 2008,9:12)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Martin...I have some questions about low/zero carb diets:

1. Is there any way or need to incorporate a post-workout insulin spike to help aid in recovery and deliver nutrients quickly to muscle tissue?

2. If not eating carbs, how is one supposed to get adequate fiber?

3. What about the health benefits of fruits and vegetables? Do you think it would be wise or healthy to completely exlude these food groups?

4. How is this diet for maintaining muscle mass? Some have mentioned personal experiences where muscle starts to waste as body fat gets extremely low.

5. Aside from body fat, is this a healthy diet? Most of us here are trying to be healthy and body fat is not the only measure of health.

Thanks</div>
1. Fat, protein, vitamins and minerals are used to build, repair and maintain tissue. Carbs can't be used for that end. The only thing carbs are good for is fuel. I don't think that an insulin spike by itself serves to help recovery. It is required for amino acid uptake but then eating protein already causes an adequate insulin release for that purpose.

2. Do you need fiber? I don't. As far as I know, fiber is more detrimental than anything. But look it up for yourself before you make up your mind on this one.

3. To me, fruits and vegetables are weak substitutes for the fat, protein, vitamins and minerals I can get from fatty meat. If there is a health benefit to be had from fruits and vegetables, it's somehow overwhelmed by the sugar and starch that they contain.

4. I'm not losing muscle mass that I can see. If muscle starts to waste then perhaps they're lacking something that would otherwise allow them to use the protein they eat.

5. I'm not a physician but I can tell when I'm sick or when I have a problem. I don't have a health problem that I know of.

See stevejones' experiment. By his own account, he's as strong as ever. Maybe not stronger but he has a lot of energy. If it's any measure of health, being just as strong and having lots of energy are not signs of sickness. If anything, they are signs of good health.
 
<div>
(Martin Levac @ May 10 2008,2:40)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">He did say how many calories he would need with BMR calculation: 2200. You calculated your maintenance to 3200 calories. A difference of 1000 calories. he weighs 160, you weigh 280. Up to now, the numbers look OK. Let's compare the first week only since that's the point you're at now.</div>
I cant honestly tell if you are intellectually dishonest, or have no idea what you are actually talking about

Whats is the other guys total energy expenditure, because comparing steves TEE to the other guys BMR is a worthless exercise (sic)
 
<div>
(Martin Levac @ May 09 2008,11:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">3. To me, fruits and vegetables are weak substitutes for the fat, protein, vitamins and minerals I can get from fatty meat. If there is a health benefit to be had from fruits and vegetables, it's somehow overwhelmed by the sugar and starch that they contain.</div>
Here's a comparison for everyone and pay particular note to the vitamin and mineral content of these two foods and also particular attention to the amounts of carbs. What you will see is that by volume, with about equal calories, the beef has no where the same amount of vitamins and minerals as the 3 large peaches.

about 2.25 oz of cooked beef (no specific cut, lean and fat eaten)

Water (g) 33.23
Energy (kcal) 184
Protein (g) 16.8
Fat, total (g) 12.47
Carbohydrate (g) 0
Sugars, total (g) 0
Fiber, total dietary (g) 0
Alcohol (g) 0
Cholesterol (mg) 56
Saturated fatty acids, total (g) 4.932
4:0 (g) 0
6:0 (g) 0
8:0 (g) 0
10:0 (g) 0.033
12:0 (g) 0.029
14:0 (g) 0.391
16:0 (g) 3.02
18:0 (g) 1.451
Monounsaturated fatty acids, total (g) 5.329
16:1 (g) 0.51
18:1 (g) 4.796
20:1 (g) 0.022
22:1 (g) 0
Polyunsaturated fatty acids, total (g) 0.452
18:2 (g) 0.308
18:3 (g) 0.122
18:4 (g) 0
20:4 (g) 0.019
20:5 n-3 (g) 0
22:5 n-3 (g) 0
22:6 n-3 (g) 0
Calcium (mg) 6
Copper (mg) 0.069
Iron (mg) 1.69
Magnesium (mg) 14
Phosphorus (mg) 131
Potassium (mg) 201
Selenium (mcg) 12.4
Sodium (mg) 245
Zinc (mg) 3.76
Vitamin A, RAE (mcg) 0
Vitamin C (mg) 0
Vitamin B-6 (mg) 0.209
Vitamin B-12 (mcg) 1.56
Vitamin B-12, added (mcg) 0
Vitamin E, alpha tocopherol (mg) 0.12
Vitamin E, added (mg) 0
Folate, DFE (mcg) 4
Folate, food (mcg) 4
Folate, total (mcg) 4
Folic acid (mcg) 0
Vitamin K (mcg) 1.1
Niacin (mg) 2.314
Retinol (mcg) 0
Riboflavin (mg) 0.136
Thiamin (mg) 0.05
Carotene, beta (mcg) 0
Carotene, alpha (mcg) 0
Cryptoxanthin, beta (mcg) 0
Lutein + zeaxanthin (mcg) 0
Lycopene (mcg) 0
Caffeine (mg) 0
Theobromine 0



3 Large Peaches 471 gm

Water (g) 418.58
Energy (kcal) 184
Protein (g) 4.29
Fat, total (g) 1.18
Carbohydrate (g) 44.93
Sugars, total (g) 39.52
Fiber, total dietary (g) 7.1
Alcohol (g) 0
Cholesterol (mg) 0
Saturated fatty acids, total (g) 0.089
4:0 (g) 0
6:0 (g) 0
8:0 (g) 0
10:0 (g) 0
12:0 (g) 0
14:0 (g) 0
16:0 (g) 0.08
18:0 (g) 0.009
Monounsaturated fatty acids, total (g) 0.316
16:1 (g) 0.009
18:1 (g) 0.306
20:1 (g) 0
22:1 (g) 0
Polyunsaturated fatty acids, total (g) 0.405
18:2 (g) 0.396
18:3 (g) 0.009
18:4 (g) 0
20:4 (g) 0
20:5 n-3 (g) 0
22:5 n-3 (g) 0
22:6 n-3 (g) 0
Calcium (mg) 28
Copper (mg) 0.32
Iron (mg) 1.18
Magnesium (mg) 42
Phosphorus (mg) 94
Potassium (mg) 895
Selenium (mcg) 0.5
Sodium (mg) 0
Zinc (mg) 0.8
Vitamin A, RAE (mcg) 75
Vitamin C (mg) 31.1
Vitamin B-6 (mg) 0.118
Vitamin B-12 (mcg) 0
Vitamin B-12, added (mcg) 0
Vitamin E, alpha tocopherol (mg) 3.44
Vitamin E, added (mg) 0
Folate, DFE (mcg) 19
Folate, food (mcg) 19
Folate, total (mcg) 19
Folic acid (mcg) 0
Vitamin K (mcg) 12.2
Niacin (mg) 3.796
Retinol (mcg) 0
Riboflavin (mg) 0.146
Thiamin (mg) 0.113
Carotene, beta (mcg) 763
Carotene, alpha (mcg) 0
Cryptoxanthin, beta (mcg) 316
Lutein + zeaxanthin (mcg) 429
Lycopene (mcg) 0
Caffeine (mg) 0
Theobromine 0

Also note that sugar content of the 3 peaches is less than one 16 oz cola but about equal in calories and water content.

Water (g) 444.33
Energy (kcal) 182
Protein (g) 0.34
Fat, total (g) 0.1
Carbohydrate (g) 47.04
Sugars, total (g) 44.13


So what's my point?

Eat fruit it's good stuff.
Eat Meat it's good stuff.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If muscle starts to waste then perhaps they're lacking something that would otherwise allow them to use the protein they eat.</div>
Heheh.
 
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