First Time HST-er (Need some help)

A

ACMana

New Member
Hi. Prior to this routine, I was using Bill Starr's 5x5 and saw great strength gains but no noticeable size (yes, i was eating like a horse as advised with about 1.5g / lb protein and about 500 cals over maintenance), so I've decided to "even things up" and get that size to go along with my gains from 5x5.

I've been reading trying to find an "ideal" routine. Unfortunately, I was unable to find such a routine so i tried making one based on the "vanilla" routine and routines other have created. Here's my routine:

Squats / Deadlift
Flat Bench Press
Bent Over BB rows
Military Press
BB curls
Lying Tricep Extensions
Calve Raises
Abs

Since I don't have an apparatus that allows me to do leg press (and based on the advice given to others on this board), I'm planning on replacing leg presses with deadlifts and alternating squats and deadlifts each workout. Would it be better if I included both in each and every workout or would that be too taxing?

I'm trying to incorporate as many compounds as i can while still hitting hte bi's and tri's well. I'm only able to get about 3 chin ups done- I'm would be using a door because I don't have a bar or anything else i can do it on. Should i still alternate chins in my routine? If so, what should i alternate it with?

I've also heard dips are quite efficient as a compound movement and hit the tri's hard. Should i alternate this with my tricep exercise (or even my bench) eventhough i can only do about 10 with good form without weight?

Finally, in some of the routines I've seen, there is incline bench press but no flat bench press. Is there any reason for this? Should i alternate my flat bench press with incline bench press or even replace it completely?

Thank you for your time
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I and a lot of other guys do dips and incline BP. Dips are great for the pecs and the tri's. Incline BP is great for the pecs and shoulders. I guess it's just a way to make chest exercises more beneficial overall.

I was thinking of alternating dips/inc. BP with bench dips/ flat BP, just for variety, myself.

Also, you may want to do shrugs on days you are doing squats instead of dead lifts. That way, your traps get hit each time you workout.
 
Oh, about dips, during the 15s you could rest one foot on a chair. All 6 workouts in the 15 would be the same, i.e. no progression, but the progression would pick up in the 10s.
 
Since I can only do 10 reps with good form without weights how would you suggest I incorporate progression into the dips during the 10's? Could you also explain what you meant when you talked about alternating those exercises? I'm confused about what you were planning on alternating with what.

Thanks for the advice.
 
Squats, chins, dips and bench are the big 4 for a HST program IMO. Then feel free to add in some others like calves, mil press, rows and thats about it,
 
That routine looks good. Alternating the deads would be a good idea. You could just do deads once a week, on whatever the middle day of your workout is - typically Weds. I'd consider doing chins instead of rows on that day as well. If you can do dips, do them instead of bench that day. Also, I personally would do incline bench instead of flat bench, but flat bench is okay too.

About the dips - since you can only do 10 at bodyweight, just keep doing 10 each time you do dips until you reach the 5s, then start adding weight. You'll gain strength in the dips during that period and just your bodyweight should remain an effective weight for quite a while anyway.

So... how I would set up the workout:

Mon/Fri

Squats
Bench Press
Bent Over BB rows
Military Press
BB curls
Lying Tricep Extensions
Calve Raises
Abs

Weds

Deadlift
Dips
Chins
Military Press
BB curls
Lying Tricep Extensions
Calve Raises
Abs

Assuming you eat enough, that should let you pack on quite a lot of mass. Also, dips and chins are awesome for negatives. Even if you don't do negatives for the other exercises, once you get to that point, you should definitely do negatives for chins and dips.
 
Push presses are also great for doing negatives.

I would suggest dropping the isolation movements though ACMana, especially since you saw good strength gains with the 5x5 where you presumably were not doing iso's.
 
If I'm correct in my observations, chins have underhanded grip while Pull ups have overhanded grip, right? I'm using a door to do my pull ups, but I can't find anything that I would be able to do chins on. Would it still be as effective if I did pulls instead or should i just not do either?

I was also planning to go 15/10/5/5 instead of 15/10/5/negatives. Would I see more size gains if i went with negatives?

Are lying tricep extensions / BB curls the best hypertrophy- inducing exercises for the tri's and bi's? I'm unsure about what ab exercise is best as well. Are there any that produce abs more efficiently than others?

Liege, your assumption about me not doing iso's with 5x5 is slightly correct. I did do iso's because they were recommended assistance work. Would i still get maximum arm growth without the iso's? And if I remove them the workout would seem "insufficient," so is there anything I should replace them with?

Thanks for all the advice guys.

P.S.
Liege, everytime I see your avatar, I laugh inside. I don't know why- maybe there's something about will farrell (that is Will Farrell, right?) that makes me laugh.

Edit: Coming out of 5x5, should I do the 9-day SD or should i shorten / lengthen it? I'm currently on my 5th day of SD and it's painful to not lift.
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If I'm correct in my observations, chins have underhanded grip while Pull ups have overhanded grip, right? </div>

You are correct!

A door does not seem to be the best as it will end up hurting your hands! Specially if you add on weight!

You can always do rows instead until you find alternatives, chins are excellent though!

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Would I see more size gains if i went with negatives?</div>

Generally speaking, yes. Research has been done to prove that Eccentrics only do produce better hypertrophy, but you need a partner and a good one at that! Many of us do extra time on 5's and squeeze out as much as possible!

If you do reverse grip chins and dips, your arm grwoth should be taken care of, but again many of us include the isos's during the 5's as metabolic stress inducers!

The best curl IMO is imcline d/b curls because of the stretch involved and skullcrushers or any other overhead tricep extension for triceps!

Hope this helps some!
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If I'm correct in my observations, chins have underhanded grip while Pull ups have overhanded grip, right? </div>

I've always referred to the overhand (usually wide) grip technique as 'chin-ups' and called the underhand (usually narrow) grip ones as 'pull ups'! exrx.net seems to use them interchangably, as does wikipedia
Anything more offical that we know of?
 
Berserk

We can always refer to Close Reverse Grip Pullups or chinups (either way the first refrence gets us the descrition we need).

The difference between the two is that the above engages the biceps a lot more, and the overhand wide grip hits much less on the biceps although both hit the lats well, whats more underhand or reverse grip allows one to carry much more weight, thus it has better effects on hypertyrophy.
 
I've seen the terms used interchangeably too. Both are technically pull-ups and chin-ups so I suppose the best way to avoid confusion is to specifically mention grip orientation and grip spacing.

I expect the association with chin-ups being done with an underhand, narrow grip is because pull-ups were sometimes done in behind-the-neck fashion. Try doing that with an underhand, narrow grip!
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Try doing that with an underhand, narrow grip!</div>

Darn, you beat me
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No can do!
 
Chins, pullups... call them whatever you want
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In either case, you pul yourself up until your chin is up the bar, right?
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Research has been done to prove that Eccentrics only do produce better hypertrophy</div>
Well, you can put it like that, but not really completely true. Eccentrics produce more microtrauma, yes... but... the most critical factor in skeletal muscle hypertrophy is increasing the translational efficiency over time (preferrably as long as possible and productive) by continually increasing the load (gradually with sufficient increments - but these are mere &quot;details&quot;, simply a way, one way, to apply the science, not the science itself ).

This is why I don't believe eccentrics (negs) are useful just because they are &quot;eccentrics&quot; and cause more microtrauma. For one thing, pure eccentrics lack the metabollic considerations provided by concentric movement. And for another, the name of the game isn't &quot;let's get/do the most microtrauma to our muscles.&quot; As I said above, the name of the game is really translational efficiency increases over time. Negs are just one way to accomplsh that. There are lots of other ways to setup a cycle so as to achieve it without using negs. Of course, in favor of eccentrics, negs are good because they provide a simple, &quot;no-brainer&quot; way to accomplish increased translational efficiency over time.
 
You guys sure went into detail about that &quot;chins&quot; vs. &quot;pulls&quot; controversy.

I guess my routine's going to look somewhat different than it did at first:

Squats / Deadlift + Shrug
Flat Bench / Incline bench (is this a good idea or should I just drop one of them? if so, which one?)
Bent Over Rows (I can do a few chins. Should I just do the few chins instead?)
Military Press
Skullcrushers / Dips (once again, should I alternate the two or just drop one?)
Incline DB curls
Abs

How does that routine look? I'm still thinking about an earlier suggestion about removing the iso's, but I don't know what to replace them with.

Are there any ab exercises you guys would recommend?

Thanks a lot guys. I'm glad that HST is so flexible and allows people to create routines, but at the same time I'm slightly disappointed that there is no routine carved in stone for HST, unlike the 5x5 routine (Yes, I'm a bit lazy when it comes to planning).
 
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(ACMana @ Jul. 26 2006,16:27)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">You guys sure went into detail about that &quot;chins&quot; vs. &quot;pulls&quot; controversy.

I guess my routine's going to look somewhat different than it did at first:

Squats / Deadlift + Shrug
Flat Bench / Incline bench (is this a good idea or should I just drop one of them? if so, which one?)
Bent Over Rows (I can do a few chins. Should I just do the few chins instead?)
Military Press
Skullcrushers / Dips (once again, should I alternate the two or just drop one?)
Incline DB curls
Abs

How does that routine look? I'm still thinking about an earlier suggestion about removing the iso's, but I don't know what to replace them with.

Are there any ab exercises you guys would recommend?

Thanks a lot guys. I'm glad that HST is so flexible and allows people to create routines, but at the same time I'm slightly disappointed that there is no routine carved in stone for HST, unlike the 5x5 routine (Yes, I'm a bit lazy when it comes to planning).</div>
do incline bench its better for pecs and shoulders.
replace curls with chins that way you get back thickness as well as width.
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(faz @ Jul. 26 2006,12:24)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">replace curls with chins that way you get back thickness as well as width.
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If only i had something I could do chins on, Faz .

If I were to remove the flat bench press, should I also remove the skullcrushers and just keep dips (seeing as how it seems to be a very popular combination in another thread here)?

And could anyone still point me in the direction of an ab exercise ideal for HST, please?
 
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(ACMana @ Jul. 26 2006,21:53)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(faz @ Jul. 26 2006,12:24)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">replace curls with chins that way you get back thickness as well as width.
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If only i had something I could do chins on, Faz .

If I were to remove the flat bench press, should I also remove the skullcrushers and just keep dips (seeing as how it seems to be a very popular combination in another thread here)?

And could anyone still point me in the direction of an ab exercise ideal for HST, please?</div>
drop the skullcrushers do dips.
just do crunches for abs..or planks before you work out stabalises the core muscles.
 
None of us really goes into the abs story because it is really up to you, use some combinations if you will.

Cable Crunches, swing a dumbell (held between your hands) from side to side while lying on a swiss ball (great one) if you don't have a swiss ball do it off the end of a bench, some hnaging leg raises.
 
Oh okay. I just assumed you could stimulate great hypertrophy in your abs with HST as well because every article / thread I've read about abs tells me that abs must be worked the same as the rest of your muscles: create a day for them just like your other muscles, work them no more than 3x a week, train them with resistance, etc.

If I were to do some exercises for my abs, such as weighted situps, should i do 1x15 the first two weeks, 2x10 the second two weeks, and 3x5 the last two-four weeks or should I do 8-12 weighted situps for abs throughout the cycle? From what I've read 8-12 seems to be the ideal rep range for situps (correct me if I'm wrong, please).
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Thanks a lot guys. I guess I'm almost ready to try this routine a few days from now after SD is over. Hopefully with all your help, I will see optimal results.
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