Getting lean without losing beef

I agree Bluejacket.

Its not so much the workouts that annoy me and become life dominating, its the consecutive days of starvation level calories, and then the monster eating sessions, all of which have to be planned very carefully for a guy like me who doesn't do well with "instinctual eating."


And I've also experienced weakness on the power workout. I always attributed it to the modified schedule I used that would put tension workout and power workout a mere 24 hours apart. Lets see if its different this week with tension on weds and power on fri.


One of my more long term motives for forcing my self to do UD2.0 is that I think when I start bulking, I'm going to love the UD2.0 bulk for a few reasons.

1)100 gr CHO and a lot more fat will make the 'depletion days' real easy, as I'm very happy on those caloric proportions anyway. So I'm just trying to sensitize myself to the training schedule more than anything.

2) I don't like the idea of getting fat while bulking, though I realize this will happen no matter what. But I think a UD2.0 bulk will attenuate fat gain big time. I'm a little skeptical as to whether a 24/24 bulk would be as light on the fat gain though.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if I switched back to my 24/24. Its so much easier psychologically. Still cyclical, but less extreme on both ends.

Blue: how would you set your calories for a 24/24 or IF bulk? Would you add more calories to training days, or off days, or both?

Also, since you used the IF window method, on your off days, do you also put your half maintenance calories or whatever they are into an 8 hour window, post cardio, for example?
 
ok

1st thing ill say is,imo, take the time now to try out the ud 2.0 and decide on it or IF for your bulk for at least the 1st round or cycle (6-8 weeks or so). having a plan but also having a plan you like "almost" as much is like having no plan at all. its just too easy to switch and then you run into the grass is always greener mind set no matter which your currently doing and goals end up getting muddied etc. etc.

for my prev. IF bulk (16/8, HST style lifting) i did maint +7-800 on w/o days (3x week) and @maint. on all other days. as far as macros went..... i kept fat under control on most every day unless i was eating out on the weekend. pro was a steady 1-1.5g/lb for most every day and carbs filled out the rest depending on cal limits. obviously i hit the carbs pretty hard post w/o but tried to keep them modest (relative) otherwise. typically 200 or so on off days and @400 on w/o days. only occasional cardio during this bulk. bottom line is i gained about 1/2lb a week on it and my p-ratio was a little better with this approach then typical 1lb a week bulking. i can gain wgt as easy as anyone these days but muscle gain continues to be slowwww. not really a complaint, just the way it is. like most bulks things started pretty tight (cals,macros) but tended to loosen a bit as i went along. it doesnt take long before little snacks and cheats that arent really part of the plan become habitual b/c thats what carbs and fat mixed into tasty combos do. nothing out of hand mind you but it got a little loose none-the less.

my current re-comp/cut in a nutshell.... maint+5-700 on w/o days (3x) and maint-7-800 on non-w/o days. sunday is usually @maint. pro the same as bulk on everyday and fat is higher on non w/o days and carbs low (30-40). i hit the carbs hard post w/o. cardio is typically 1 stubb. fat pro. a week and 2 sessions of power hiking in the mtns for a few hrs on the weekends. i adjust the cals/cardio/maint days etc. as i went along when the re-comp stalled out and cutting was needed to get under 10%.

personally im sure i could do a better job with strictness and adherence on both bulk and cut (and plan to) but i was "on" enough to know my results are pretty much what im going to get, no matter how anal i get. re-comp is a slow process, no way around it. i think i learned some real good stuff to make cutting pretty streamlined next time. bulking, well no getting around your p-ratio. if its avg or sucky then you will have avg to sucky muscle gains no matter what you do (with some improve with the right diet/prog.). time is the real key there. with enough of it (time) you can make a real diff.

i have some thoughts on my next bulk but this is long enough so ill save that for another time
 
very nice. thank you for the reply.

on approach two, your recomp, has your weight been stable (I assume you're experiencing recomposition?)

and on off days, is your food consumption restricted to an 8 hour window again? based around cardio?
 
re-comp had my wgt stay pretty close to the same, maybe 1lb loss every 3 weeks or so. i was certainly leaning out and strength stayed up but given my diff. with typical muscle gain it was prob. 25% muscle gain and 75% really slow fat loss. ive learned to begin my cuts this way (re-comp) as i can really tune into the diet and heavier wgts without rushing anything (big wgt or big cal drops). after a few weeks to a month ill add more cardio or drop carbs a bit or tightenup my weekend eating etc. to move into wgt. (fat) loss real slow. personally, once i get down to 10% standard conscientious dieting/lifting just maintains lbm and trims fat very,very slowly. too slowly to maintain real heavy lifting, imo. it is a fine line though, you always have to guard against getting carried away and too aggressive.

my diet is always 16/8, everyday. exceptions are vacation, friends etc. doesnt happen often so i dont sweat the occasional breakfast or lunch, snack whatever.

cardio. ideally i get it in in the morning, fasted. this only works for me on the weekend. like my lifting sched i can only do cardio in the evening so this means typically its in between meals. usually on non-w/o days so that really doesnt present much of a problem with food or digestion. i had some weakness issues with fasted cardio when i 1st began IF (back in the fall) but im so used to it now i prefer it. the key is to let the cardio help you towards your goals, fat loss and improved fitness, without allowing it to compromise your heavy lifting. imo, hitting the basic lifts heavy (not all the time but most) with the right freq. is a must for keeping the muscle (or adding during re-comp). on low cal/carb there is only so much energy and strength to go around, even on EOD refeeds, no sense using too much on serious cardio too often.

hope that helps

good luck
 
Yes it does, and thanks again!

25% gain 75% loss sounds great! I could def live with something like that in the fall/winter. I'd even take slow gaining without fat loss. Hence my interest in bulking amidst my cutting fest!

The question for me is going to be, can I got away with an IF bulk or UD2.0 bulk without cardio. In principle caloric adjustments should be enough to deal with this. Starting September my schedule gets more hectic, so its questionable whether I could sustain 3-4 lifting sessions + 3-4 cardio sessions a week. I'm hoping with caloric tweaking, carb cycling, etc, I won't have to, as my body seems to respond really well to carb shuffling and targeted keto type approaches. But it could be the case that my body also sucks at keeping fat off and I'm going to need the cardio to mobilize FFAs
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Routine: 60 minutes SS cardio</div>

Wow, how many miles was that?
 
oh not many at all, I walked incline treadmill that day, as my knee has been bothering me.

I think it was 3.5 miles or so, but the incline was 80-90% max. Increasing the incline get the heart going just as effectively as increasing speed, and for some reason, irritates my knee less.
 
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(beingisbeing @ Jul. 29 2008,11:46)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Yes it does, and thanks again!

25% gain 75% loss sounds great! I could def live with something like that in the fall/winter. I'd even take slow gaining without fat loss. Hence my interest in bulking amidst my cutting fest!

The question for me is going to be, can I got away with an IF bulk or UD2.0 bulk without cardio. In principle caloric adjustments should be enough to deal with this. Starting September my schedule gets more hectic, so its questionable whether I could sustain 3-4 lifting sessions + 3-4 cardio sessions a week. I'm hoping with caloric tweaking, carb cycling, etc, I won't have to, as my body seems to respond really well to carb shuffling and targeted keto type approaches. But it could be the case that my body also sucks at keeping fat off and I'm going to need the cardio to mobilize FFAs
sad.gif
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it does sound pretty good but.......
keep in mind it was during a re-comp which should ideally be closer to 50/50. i just cant gain muscle at the same rate i can lose fat (now that i know what works for me). also for re-comp to work the wgts have to be heavy which, depending on your tolerance, can only go on for so long. it is certainly something i will incorporate into my next bulk but, unless you sure your p-ratio is on the poorer side of avg. then simple vanilla bulking (without going crazy) could/should produce more overall lbm in a shorter time frame. its really a matter of what works and preferences.

personally i have a harder time with cardio during a bulk. i enjoy being in shape (cardio-wise) but i feel pretty dialed in with the cal/macro needs for gaining without the cardio. i will be doing more this winter but, as of yet, i have limited exper. as to how my gains will be affected by cardio a couple times a week.
 
Weds July 30th

Weight: 161

Routine: 40 min jog in the AM

Tension WO PM

Carb Load begins!

Nutrients and calorie-things get blurry here because of the irregular day/schedule. I may post them later when they're done. On my dry erase board at the moment.

Macros up to carb load: All I remember is 125 gr protein, everything else is fuzzy and also minimal.
 
Thurs July 31st

Weight: 163.2 (glycogen is filling up!)

Routine: EAT AND REST

Calories: Carb load macros:

Fat: 29.5 grams (thats a new low for me! very hard)

Protein: 295 grams (this is super high, but I consider half of it as belonging to thurs)

Carbs: 1080 grams (lol)

I feel VERY full right now. My god, its hard to not associate this with &quot;getting fat&quot;
 
Friday August 1st

Weight: 165.6 (good carb load!)

Routine: power workout (too lazy to write out details right now)

Calories:

Protein: 184
Carbs: 166
Fat:33.5
Alcohol: 3 oz ketel one (~200 calories)

1901 calories.

I'm in a deficit on power work out day, but honestly I'm tired of eating. I feel so damn full from the carb load.

I felt amazingly strong today. Got the pump of my life on low reps as well.

I may lower total carbs on the next load, or not depending on where my weight equilibrates tomorrow morning.

On a related note, I may lower sugar content of the load (under 200 grams of sugar out of 1080, really not that bad, but perhaps not ideal).

Lower fiber might help too.

I can't go to the bathroom without fat! This is rough.

I'm going to cut carbs again tomorrow and eat slightly under maintenance, getting ready for depletion work and new cycle on sunday.
 
Saturday August 2nd

Weight: 163.2

Routine: rest

Calories: ate with family today. stopped food intake around 3 pm. I approximate things at about 2100 calories for the day. Ready to take the plunge again tomorrow
 
Sunday August 3rd

Weight 163.6

Calories: ~1300 or less

Routine: Depletion WO

30 min SS cardio

Note: I discovered my low carb bread has caloric info listed PER OUNCE. HAHAHA. unbelievable.

Good thing I bought a digital food scale, no more approximations!

I'm going to include my fish oils in calorie counts from now on (6 gr fat)
 
Monday August 4th

Weight 160 flat

Routine Depletion WO II

SS cardio 50 mins (with 6 intervals to account for 6 sets of leg work), 5 minute cool down

The more correctly you do these workouts (proper form, making sure sets last 45-60 seconds, etc) the more agonizing they get!

Calories:1203.675

Protein 164.15
Fat 33.075
Carbs 57.85
 
well I'm very depleted right now. weight fluctuates ~4-7 lbs on these carb cycling diets!

I'm not sure. I'd like to at least flatten out my lower stomach some more, if not make the lower abdominal wall a bit more visible. But we'll see if I can get there. I have to admit, I am getting a bit tired of losing fat, I just want to gain some beef right now. My favorite part of UD2.0 is post power workout where you just look huge.

Regardless of what happens, I don't think I'll cut past September 1st. I need my chips and beer during football season, even if its only baked chips and light beer once a week and I have to count calories to allow for it.

you're an Englishman, right Sof?
 
Tuesday August 5th

Weight: 159.6 (assuming all things equal, which is probably a completely unjustified assumption, I'm down from last week. Lets see if we can tank out at 158 pre carb load without dehydration)

Routine: 50 mins SS (incline treadmill walk)
10 min taper/cool down

Calories: 1221.875

Protein:160.75
Fat:38.275
Carbs:52.75 (56.75 counting sorbitol, maybe 60 counting some broccoli)
+ 4 grams sorbitol:4X2.6=10.4 calories
 
<div>
(beingisbeing @ Aug. 04 2008,6:58)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Regardless of what happens, I don't think I'll cut past September 1st. I need my chips and beer during football season, even if its only baked chips and light beer once a week and I have to count calories to allow for it</div>
You can still cut calories despite eating chicken wings, burgers, potato chips and drinking beer. You just have to watch everything else you eat that day and throw in a workout in the morning. Moderation is key. While that food may not agree with your diet or your current caloric balance, do you intend to keep on cutting with such a high deficit? I imagine not... a normal paced, more isocaloric diet may be in your future as you bridge the gap from this insane, but very productive, cut to most likely a moderated bulk.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">You can still cut calories despite eating chicken wings, burgers, potato chips and drinking beer. You just have to watch everything else you eat that day and throw in a workout in the morning. Moderation is key. While that food may not agree with your diet or your current caloric balance, do you intend to keep on cutting with such a high deficit? I imagine not... a normal paced, more isocaloric diet may be in your future as you bridge the gap from this insane, but very productive, cut to most likely a moderated bulk.</div>

Yup. Thats the plan. I'll probably make sure Sundays end up a heavy lifting day, and then I'll eat IF style for the games/fun.

Moderate bulk for sure. Starting September I'll probably decondition/eat at maintenance for a week, and then settle into a recomp/slow bulk either EOD style or UD2.0 and assess things from there.

Interesting though, that after nagging Lyle on his forum, he basically said he doesn't find the data/method of SD convincing at all, but prefers a periodic lightening up of intensity. I dunno what to think about this.
 
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