Gimme squat alternatives

I have had a crushed #4 lumbar these past 30 years. I've learned to:
a.) live with pain
b.) do trunk twists and bendover movements for flexibility
c.) not spend a lot of time bent over (in one position)
d.) pick my leg exersizes carefully (by experimentation) and
e.) believe in chiropractors when it gets bad.

Good mornings slowly kill me, BB squats, roman chair and situps as well. However, I can machine squat, hack squat, sissy squat, smythe squat, d/b squat, lunge squat, and potty squat. It ain't over until I say it is.
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given the info youve provided so far im going to go with mindstar on this one, at least as far as getting some kind of medical opinion on whats going on.

two things come to mind.
one. your right, a pop or whatever pain is going on with your back is trouble and if ignored will lead to a skinny body (b/c you cant lift) not just skinny legs. your right to be wary.

two. im betting (another way of saying im guessing) your nonresponding quads are b/c of your long standing back condition. no way you going to get to the wgt you need to grow without good form and a reasonably healthy back. db, while hard and can be a good w/o, in the long run prob. wont be able to get heavy enough to do more then maint. or get slight growth in the quads.

see what a professional has to offer you. take quadancer, hes got a lot of limitations but hes seen someone (more then 1) and knows what to do and not do as well as why.

good luck
 
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(quadancer @ Nov. 14 2006,22:08)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">It ain't over until I say it is.  
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Its why I started the thread.
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Alright...I'll throw this out there, ya'll lemme know if theres a problem with the order, this should please the people that like to type ATG  
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warm up (air squats)

deadlifts (with dumbells, you know it)  Im starting out with very moderate weight.

front squat, bar on front shoulders (I tried to get it on my back
but its just too short...I did go ATG  
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rows, basically to get them out of the way, besides, I could feel it in my upper back doing front squats, what better time to do rows...haha

then no weight step ups for reps, im gonna add reps each workout


I was able to do these without much drama, so unless there is an issue of order or too many exercises, this is gonna be it. I figured since im using moderate weight so far, too much variation wouldn't be an issue, then again, I am asking.


This is AM....PM I finish out the upper exercises.


Lemme know, thanks
 
front squats are a great exer. if you can do enough wgt with no back trouble. as you go and the wgts start to get up there doing deads followed immed. by squat could/should be very tough. perhaps consider doing db calf raises for a few sets in between when it does get hard. something to allow your quads/back/whole body to recover a little from what should be seriously heavy db deadl. (5s).

not sure about no wgt step ups with increasing reps. i would think adding wgt not reps until the deads and squat get hvy enough (then you can do without) would be the way to go. perhaps youve already covered this with others previously so ill just leave it at that.

id like to hear what others think.
 
I'm kind of in a similar boat as you with the back. Except my problem is in my SI joint. I suspect the dumbells may be contributing to your problem.

I tried doing DB deadlifts because of some SI issues and I didn't have a trap bar to do deadlifts that way. They put me in bed for a week unable to lift, the imbalance combined with using dumbells caused me to get hurt.

Are you holding the dumbells up at your shoulders or down by your side? If it's down by your side they may be the problem. It is much more difficult to hold good form with the dumbells period, holding them by your side, it may be damn near impossible.

I've found that all I can do is keep squatting and if I get a tweak, stop immediately and take care of it, letting it heal before continuing. This gives me more SD than I'd like from time to time, but my legs are the main reason I work out and I can't go without squatting.

Sorry I can't offer an alternative using the equipment and limited space you described. All I can suggest is to use the very best form you possibly can, don't go heavy if you are feeling any low back pain or discomfort...even tightness from a previous workout.

I do have another suggestion that may help though, nothing to do with changing your equipment or an alternative to squatting. I believe this is going to work for me and may work for you. The 5's end up being too much because they are too heavy and increasing every workout. So I'm going to do my next training cycle a little differently. All 5's. But I'll be starting very light and working my way up to heavy very slowly and in an alternating pattern. I'll still squat every workout but my weights will increment like this (each number is the weight used for a whole workout):
5x5
120,130, 140, 130, 140, 150, 140, 150, 160...

I'll do this for 8 weeks and hopefully at the end of this, my 1RM will be my 5RM...getting there safely without injury.

I didn't create this plan, I just borrowed part of the madcow variation of Bill Starr's 5x5 program.

The extra posteror core work would also help. I reccomend glute ham raise, good morning, and SLDL. They've helped me reduce the frequency of my injuries that an imbalance between front and back was causing.

You can do the GHR without a special bench simply by lying prone on the floor with your feet wedged under something or someone holding your ankles then use your glutes/hams to lift your body to perpindicular to the floor and back down to prone. Be ready to catch yourself considering this is a bodyweight leg curl and until you get the strength for it you will fall on your face a few times.

Good luck with the back friend.
 
Thanks fellas.

Yeah, I do the deadlifts with the db's beside my feet, not in front.

I actually have no idea how people do bar deadlifts, it hits my knees on the way up every single time.

Appreciate the thoughts





side note, only reason I considered adding the step up, no weight or light weight but only shooting for X reps + a couple per workout, I used to do the same with pushups, after every workout, Id knock out a few pushups, then when it came time to really push the DB chest press, I stopped those for improved recovery and focus, strength seemed to improve, also saw improved chest development.


Im flexible with it all, just throw the ideas out.


Vagrant, that 5's idea you have sure sounds tempting, cause I like the 5's alot more than the 15 and 10's, probably why I should continue the 15 and 10's...or will I?  
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Thanks
 
What happened? For 2.5 pages everyone knew what I should do, now that I post my compilation of ideas for critique, noone wants to provide input (with the exception of two).
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Anyone?
 
A.) you're in a different world. We all have weights.
B.) all you need to know is there in the thread.

Really, it's down to your personal choice and experimentation. We can't say anything much more than what's been said, because you'll have to apply the technique of trying things for a period of time to see if they will work. THEN you will have more criteria for input.
Seriously, I don't see how you can't fit a BAR and a STACK of weights, under a couch or in a corner somewhere. Years ago I even saw a portable chin bar you'd screw into a doorframe, which gave me the idea for mine, which is a full bar run into holes I drilled in a cased opening. (well, it's MY house, so I could) It bends a bit when I add over 40 lbs. to my belt, but it holds. Is there a back yard? I saw some hillbilly stuff when I lived in Missouri...truck axles with cement-filled wheels and tires on the ends, ropes and pulleys, with buckets of gravel and rocks for cables, and stuff like that that wouldn't be worth stealing. There's always a way with a little imagination. Ya gotta think outside the box!
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(quadancer @ Nov. 16 2006,09:37)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Is there a back yard? I saw some hillbilly stuff when I lived in Missouri...truck axles with cement-filled wheels and tires on the ends, ropes and pulleys, with buckets of gravel and rocks for cables, and stuff like that that wouldn't be worth stealing. There's always a way with a little imagination. Ya gotta think outside the box!
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LOL....that is friggin hilarious!  I can just see a couple of huge long bearded hillbillies working out on that setup.
 
HOLY HELL!


I have built my own chin station, Ive also build my own pulley systems in the past, I am quite capable of thinking outside the box. You need to start thinking within, Ive set the parameters for the exercises I am capable of doing at this time.

Its no longer a question of which exercises, I have listed the exercises I plan to do. Its quite simple, some exercises are best performed in a certian order, some exercises go better together than others, this is why I listed my exercises of choice and what I plan to do, its why I sought advice. Obviously my world isn't so small, bluejacket understood my question and felt other input would be beneficial as well.


As I stated before, worse comes to worse, Iwill set up a squat rack outside and do the dang traditional squats, however, I am no where near needing that capability at this time.


Thought I was thick...jeez
 
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(Bulldog @ Nov. 16 2006,10:04)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">LOL....that is friggin hilarious!  I can just see a couple of huge long bearded hillbillies working out on that setup.</div>
Been there, done that. Plus piling heavy stuff on a pallet to drag. I've spoken to one guy who fills ziplock bags with sand and puts however many he needs for his workout into one of those big Army duffels...the same kind that with a carabiner and some rope has replaced my worn out heavy bag.

You can always do something and find a way to do it right with some thought and creativity.
 
Didn't mean ta ruffle your feathers bro - It sounded like you had NO space for anything, and a closet is all I'd need to hide some. As for further regimen advice, I reiterate: sooner or later we have to see what works for us, because one size doesn't always fit all. I thought that about all the suggestions had been made. It could go on forever, and you'd still be getting nowhere. I had to learn that myself, such as narrow grip chins. I'd stopped growing on the wide ones. Narrow worked, but not until I tried it for six months. That's all I meant.
 
Fair enough Quadancer...

couple posts up I made a list of the things I was going to do and the order, just wondered if there was an issue of order or anything like that.


Sure, I could stick a bar in a closet but the squat rack won't fit...
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...when I do it, I go for it,so I need safety precautions, if Im gonna do traditional squats then I need a rack of some sort, sure, I could use a standard bench but the rest on those is so small, one misalignment and my face is on the backside of the bench or the floor or worse. Once I get my front squats, legs, etc, to the point I need to move more weight, I'll cross that bridge then.


I prefer dumbells if possible anyway. Ive had more results from dumbells than all the wasted years doing the bar on most lifts.


Ya'll have a good one, I reckon time will tell.
 
I watched a guy train for squats with a bar across the chest (front squat) with arms crossed, starting light and going ATG in a home gym. It wasn't very long before he couldn't snatch the bar up to the chest, and had to join a gym, where he tried regular squats. No surprise, his form was absolutely perfect and his weights were pretty well up there, too.
I suppose using d/b's will certainly help at least in getting used to the concept and feel of a squat.
 
I guess the dumbbell thing just depends on your stage of development.  I was curious about dumbbell squats and tried them yesterday.  The 100's felt like air, the 150's were good, but nothing like regular squats.  The 200's (my heaviest dumbbells) did quite a workout on my rhomboids and delts, but I couldn't get them to work the quads hard enough.  I also couldn't go far below parallel with them because they would hit the floor.  It seemed like they just worked my smaller muscles (rhomboids,delts, forearms, and glutes) plenty but I didn't get any stimulation on quads or hamstrings. DB's are always good for lunges though.

I'd also like to add that, if your only problem is space, then may still be able to do regular barbell squats.  All you have to do is buy 2 large squat stands that should fit inside a closet once you collapse them, and then 2 smaller stands that can act as your spotter stands.  

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0001FSPM4?v=glance   ---these are too pricey but you get the idea

http://www.newyorkbarbells.com/93015.html ---spotter stands
 
quadancer

I use the small bench supports to take the weight off of, no way I could snatch the weight, lay it on my shoulders, then reverse.  


stevejones

Id say your the exception, not the rule.    
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Thanks for the links
 
Mmm, front squat grip - I myself had to stop the traditional hold (hands on bar) and started using the crossed arms style; however the bar still rolled forward. So I used the less publicised arms out &quot;no hold.&quot; F'kin get in there! Form improves, as it has to - no more just going thru' the motions. ATG. Dave Draper has a device which fastens to the bar and has handles which put your arms in much the same position as described above - but for the back squat. His reason for inventing this was control, balance and improved form - again these are the same reason for using the no-hold front squat.


No squat rack - sounds like you need some chains!
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or a yoke
 
I had to switch from regular squats to hack squats (due to a touch of sciatica now and then)

So is there a general conversion rate from what one does on Hack Squats to free weight squats? I would think it is not the same. I use the hammer strength V Hack Squat machine. I did 500lbs for my 5 yesterday ----- anyone know how that would equate to regulat free weight squats?


Bob
 
It will depend on if your hack is a 30 or 45 degree machine. Most are 45, which I've heard equates to 70% or thereabouts. So a 400 lb. squat on a hack would be like 680. You did 500? That would be about 350 in a squat.
Still not the same though, since your synergistic muscles aren't working in the hack, but hey, that's obvious. My math might be off a bit; I'm going by memory. Another reason I believe they don't really equate is that I did some barbell squats yesterday. I've been using a lever machine at home for a couple of years, (slightly harder than the hacksquat) and I'm at 17 rep sets for 320 right now. (coming down from 20's) I like to DIED in the BB squat, hitting only about 4 reps with 315 on it. I felt weak as a kitten!

Need2Eat, here's something of interest for you:
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Quadriceps/BBSideSplitSqaut.html
It can be done with D/B's.
 
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