Guess who's back, back again.

If you have the funds, I would recommend getting some versa gripps. I use regular cheap leather straps from the sporting goods store and they are not only horribly stretched out at this point, but they dig into my wrists really badly when doing heavy deadlifts, which usually results in deep marks that take days to go away when I am lucky enough that they don't just break right through the skin. Maybe I just have delicate wrists.
Anyway, you are deadlifting heavy enough that this could be a problem for you too. Some cotton or leather straps will work for you for a while, but they won't last in the long run. I'm going to upgrade to some versa gripps some time this summer, not sure when yet, I guess when I get sick of cleaning my blood up at the gym or my straps finally tear. It's like a $45 investment though. If you did get them, either get the classic or the pro series, don't get the "fit" ones or whatever they are called, those are basically designed for women and fitness weenies, not people moving real loads. Supposedly the pro series is better for people who are serious lifters but I don't know if it is worth the extra money or not.
 
Get the pro version - it's very much worth it. The wrist strap is thicker with more padding, providing much more support all around, and the leather used for the grip portion is (in my opinion) thicker. Lastly - the buckle is very, very durable. Well worth the extra money.
 
Thanks for the advice guys. I just placed a set of Pros in my Amazon cart. At least I made it up to the “Small” range and didn’t have to order the “X-Small”
 
I'm late to this conversation, but I wanted to add that I've been very satisfied with my Versa-Grips. I don't use them for my deads (I'm not lifting heavy enough these days), but they are great for high rep shrugs and calf raises.
 
Yeah I'm definitely going to have to get some soon. I was showing off a little for a couple guys at the gym the other day who were doing shrugs, and I shrugged 405 for several high rep sets, but after I was done, I couldn't get my straps off because they had dug so deep into my wrists, and my right wrist felt like crap for a few days afterward. I will just have to make room in the budget for them soon, I've been pushing them back lately for other things that were a higher priority, but I don't think I can anymore...
 
Altered my split. I've been doing upper/lower but it's gotten too arduous for the amount of volume I find necessary. So I've moved to a three way split where everything gets hit about four times every two weeks, except legs which only get hit two-three times every two weeks. This seems to be working better and my strength is climbing pretty quickly again.

Here is basically how it looks
A: Chest/Triceps/Shoulders
B: Traps/Lats/Biceps
C: Quads/Hams/Calves

I'm hitting the gym an average of four days a week. Still doing two lifts for most bodyparts - one heavyish, one lighter done with myo-reps. This combo seems to be working really well for me right now but it was getting hard with the upper/lower split, so hopefully this three way will work. I'm going to run it this for a couple months and see.

I'm kind of troubled lately as to why I'm not bigger. I look around the gym and I see guys my size moving a fraction of what I do, and all the big guys aren't much stronger than me. I have yet to see anyone deadlift as much I as do, or even close to 500 lbs at all. The only lifts I see people loading up a decent amount of weight on is bench press, and that's only when all the bears are there on saturday, and a couple times someone has leg pressed over 500. With my strength level, why I am not bigger? I guess I'm just screwed genetically. I'm not really built for bodybuilding I guess. I do have a pretty thick waist, which pretty much prevents me from getting a good v-taper, and my whole core is really thick, so... good thing I don't ever want to step on stage, I suppose. I don't really care about those aesthetics too much though, just kind of don't know why I'm not bigger. I think this is probably part of the reason why people look at my like I'm a weirdo when I load up tons of plates on the bar when squatting, shrugging, deadlifting, rack pulling, whatever, since I look a lot smaller than my strength level.
 
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Hi Totentanz
just wandering why the non-linear strength/size ratio is puzzling you.
Watched some womens olympic weightlifting and some girl did a clean and jerk of 350 lbs @150 lbs bodyweight.
Very sure she didn't have half the size, that you've got going. And obviously (being a girl) her genes are no match for even the smallest of guys. (not sure about drugs though, but size was the main point)

Havn't been folowing your log, but got the impression elsewhere, that you've been focusing a lot on strenght lately.. Think I'll almost be quoting you when saying: Train for strengh and you'll get stronger. Train for size and you'll get bigger.

My point is: How about just going for higher frequency, for a while? ..Maybe leave out the heavy lifts, thus allowing for more work pr regular session.

Seems like a dumb suggestion, considering the address. I guess it's just as much a question as it is a suggestion.
 
I believe the primary reason behind so many small but strong people in the lifting world is that they do not eat enough to grow, usually because they want to stay in a specific weight class. I mean realistically, I have quite a bit of lean mass, I just wonder why there are so many guys my size at the gym who are relatively weak, whereas most of the larger guys aren't much stronger than I am, or are weaker in some lifts. But I definitely think that strength and size are related... I mean even in HST, if you are not increasing your RMs over time, you will not continue to grow indefinitely. Really, load is the only variable in all the equations that is basically infinite. I always figured if I keep increasing my RMs that I will continue growing bigger. I just wonder how all these guys got a significant amount of size without becoming significantly stronger in the process.

I guess my main issue is that I'm pretty much tapped out as a natural now, the max size calculator predicts I can get around about 200 lbs of lean mass, and I'm just above 200 lbs of lean mass now. I look in the mirror or take my measurements and seriously think... is this it? So maybe it is my fault for training with a more strength oriented approach for a long time now, but... 200 lbs of lean mass is 200 lbs of lean mass... I should look huge at this point.
Oh well, just my own musings. I would say some of it is in my head, but measurements don't lie. I can compare my arm measurements to some guy in the gym and we will have the same size but he moves a lot less weight around than I do. Just strange.

Anyway, I am tinkering with my routine still and seeing if adding more frequency to the trouble bodyparts, along with higher reps after the heavier work will help. Otherwise, I guess there's always drug usage.
 
Hey Tote, I think you’re and I are somewhat similarly screwed genetically. Though everyone who knows me says I look bigger they are shocked when I tell them I’ve gained over 30 lbs. They just can’t see it and frankly neither can I. I think that’s because the vast majority of the weight has gone into my upper back, upper legs and butt, none of which are generally what people look at when comparing size.

Where I may have an advantage over you is that I’ve always had to wear athletic cut suits (8 inch drop) because of my small waist and though my waist has grown so have my shoulders so I still have a little more than an 8 inch drop so when I’m in gym cloths it’s noticeable. However, “back chain” really isn’t what most people see when comparing size in the gym. They seem to look at arms, neck, chest, shoulders width, and maybe upper legs.

I’m not sure what if anything you could change in your routine but I decided right now to take advantage of what is working for me. So I’ve been hitting what I have that wants to grow that will make me look bigger in any cloths like Traps and Shoulder width, though my arms are disadvantaged I’ve added back arm isos to coax them along if possible. To help how I look in gym cloths most of my chest work targets upper chest. Though mostly genetic I’ve seen some improvement which proportionally makes my chest look bigger than adding sized to my lower chest.

I’ve resigned myself to the fact that my calves and forearms are always going to be small. The only reason I’m even doing calf raises is that I am doing walkouts and figure if I’m going to take the time to set up the exercise and stand there with a heavy weight on my back I might as well knock out some Calf Raises. Likewise for my forearms all I care about anymore is grip strength.

If you get the time could you post your exercises now that you’re doing a 3-way split.
 
Yep, I'm in a similar situation. Only difference aside from me having a thicker waist is that I actually do have fair sized forearms and calves, but my chest and triceps pretty much suck... My arms are small for someone of my size/strength level, though they look decent because I have a good bicep shape, just crappy triceps. I know what you mean though... Do you have trouble with pants yet? Even with my fairly thick waist, I still struggle to find pants that will fit over my thighs and butt without wearing a waist size way bigger.

I will detail what my split looks like here... I should mention that it's not recognizable as HST to many people though it does fit all the principles. I don't do sets or reps for my main work though, I just start out at roughly around my 10 - 12 RM and keep adding weight each workout until I stall out, then I take a 9 day break and start over. For main work, I just have a rep target of 20 reps. I cluster the reps, sometimes max-stim the reps halfway through, sometimes myo-reps, sometimes rest-pause, whatever it takes to get all the reps in. Sometimes I might not quite achieve the rep target and if not, I just don't up the load next time. My secondary work I do using myo-reps using roughly my 12-15 RM and go up to 25 reps, though occasionally I go over or under 25 total reps and I only increase the load used occasionally for those exercises, usually if it is starting to feel way too light.
Everything with a * next to it is a secondary lift done as described above

Chest/Tris/Shoulders
Flat Bench
*Smith Bench or Hammerstrength Bench - the nice thing with using this as my secondary is that I can usually use what I did for my top set on flat bench for my myo-reps sets)
Tricep Dips
*Tricep Pushdowns
Upright Row - I don't do overhead work anymore as my shoulders don't seem to like presses, whereas they tolerate upright rows perfectly well without any issues
*Lateral Raises - either DB or on a machine depending on how I feel that day

Traps/Lats/Biceps
Deadlift - I am currently rotating through deadlifts from the floor, from the top and rack pulls - this is the only exception to everything where I just work up to a top set of 1-5 reps instead of working toward my rep goal
*BB Shrugs
Chins
*Plate Loaded Pulldowns - done with underhand grip
BB Curl - I always keep this one at 8 RM or lighter, to stave off elbow problems
*Machine Curl

Quads/Hams/Calves
Squats - I don't ever do these rest-pause or myo-reps style and only work up to 10 reps at most typically or if I am feeling kind of tired that day, I do them just like the deads
*Leg Extension
Good Morning
*Leg Curl
Standing Calf
*Plate Loaded Seated Calf

The workouts generally take around 45 minutes to complete, and though it's only six lifts each session, I am always soaked with sweat by the time I leave. Sometimes I deviate from the plan and do my secondary sets with heavier loads if I am trying to show off for someone or something like that... just being honest, and for arms I try to keep the secondary sets lighter and with higher reps just to keep my joints healthy. I do come close or even hit failure on my main lifts now and then, definitely more than I would in standard HST, but it doesn't seem to be harming me any.
So far I am feeling stronger every session, last time I did flat bench I managed 250 for 10 before I stopped to rest - I am conservative on benching as I don't use a spotter and don't do them in a power rack, but the calculators claim that 250 x 10 = a 333 lb 1 RM, and I definitely feel like I am making major progress in my benching strength lately using this method...
 
Did you consider, that your RM's went up to fast?
I agree that load is a significant factor, another another being conditioning.
One might imagine: You have a gentic limit for strenght and size both. While gaining strength rapidly, you'd get close to your strength limit, relatively fast. Thus mucle conditioning would catch up, as the loads will now increase very slowly.

But what happend in the meantime? ..You would have overloaded you muscles to an extent, that the "pure-bread" bodybuilder would not have.
But does more necessarily mean better, when it comes to overload?
Would a moderate amount of overload over a longer period of time, have gotten you further?
In that case, a way to go, could be to drop both strength and conditioning to a point where a moderate overload could again, be maintained. ..See where i'm going, or am I to far of shore here?
(You not necesarily meaning "you" specifically. More a general note/question.)

In any case, it would not at all surprise me, if the mirror is lying to you. Especially when being (statiscally) close to your potential. If you had gotten your size gift rapped last christmas you'd probably still be extatic.. But this is a process you've worked hard for, and have followed closely. Nothing came as a surprise to you..
 
Do you have trouble with pants yet? Even with my fairly thick waist, I still struggle to find pants that will fit over my thighs and butt without wearing a waist size way bigger.
Click to expand...
Starting to get there. I’d never considered it lucky before but with a normally 28” waist I always had to buy 30” pants minimum unless I went to the boys dept. That plus I’ve always bought loose fit jeans has saved me up to now. However, even though the 30” waists still fit the butts are straining and I’m getting bald spots on my quads from where my jeans are rubbing the hair off. A cut may save me for a little while but new pants are coming soon. Worse the Air Force uniform shirts are made for anorexics. I’ve only got about an inch left in the chest of my work shirts though the pants seem to be made to fit women’s hips so those aren’t presenting a problem yet.

It’s interesting that I’ve come to some of the same ideas for working out pretty much separate from you. I also gave up sets/reps for a number of target reps 20-30 depending on the weight and RM represented. I’ve also tried to do one heavy lift followed by a Myo-rep exercise hitting the same or similar muscles. Though I haven’t doubled up on each body part.

Were you using the same 18 exercises when you did the upper/lower split or did you add some in?

When it comes to getting bigger a coworker who competes locally in bodybuilding described me as “getting thicker.” I think that nails it pretty good. 32 lbs. is 32 lbs. and it went somewhere, just not where people usually look for it. So I guess when I cut I will have an awesome looking upper back.
 
Yes, I was using the same basic exercises before, a few were different but I usually keep the same basic lifts all the time. I think I'm going to do a quick cut again for the next month or so to get my bodyfat back under 10%. I'm up to probably 12 or 13% at a guess, back up to 235 - 240 lbs depending on water weight that day. I haven't put the numbers through the calculator but my ab skin fold has increased a bit, thigh and chest are about the same... Going to cut back down to 9 or 10%, maybe go a little lower if I feel like it, not sure if I will start bulking again til December or January. Doesn't seem like there is much point in trying to bulk up since I'm probably just about tapped out on how much lean mass I can hold naturally.

Oh, in other news, new PRs on squat and dead. Might try to get some videos soon of the lifts, but I'm going to probably need to recover for a few weeks first... and since I'm going to start cutting, not sure I'll be able to hit those numbers again for a little while.
 
Great to see you got 2 PRs. Getting over 600 lbs. on the Deadlift is a fantastic milestone.

Have you always stayed below 15% BF even when bulking or is it because, as you mentioned, you think you might be reaching your genetic muscular potential? Some people like Lyle McDonald seem to think you should cut once hitting 15% BF more people seem to say to go up to 20% when Bulking.

Seems to me some muscle must be growing considering how much your Deadlift has gone up. I’d think you’ve got neural adaptation and technique down by now.
 
Over this last winter I hit about 250 lbs and was around 22-23% bodyfat. That was the first time I've ever gone significantly over 15% and consequently I also had the best gains in strength and size that I've had in a long time. Cutting after that took a long time but I didn't lose much muscle mass and that's how I got to where I am at now. I don't see much point right now in bulking back up to such a high bodyfat percentage though when all the max potential calculators say I can't hold much more than 200 lbs of lean mass and I'm at around 205 lbs of lean mass based on my measurements, which could be off by 5 lbs or so, who knows. Basically, it says I am maxed out.
My reasoning for bulking beyond 15% was that I know how to cut and I know I can cut the bodyfat. Aside from that, I think it had held me back a lot in the past when I would start to get fat and I would get scared then go on a cut. So instead of doing that, last winter I decided to just keep going...

I have considered trying some legal routes to gain more mass such as experimenting with insulin or legal peptides but the peptides are all expensive and I'm scared of insulin. Not sure what else I can do though since I'm not satisfied with the size I have just yet.
 
Hi Totentanz..
What is the tollerance of the calculators mentioned? ..How do they work?
I'd imagine calculations to be very inacurate for anything other than statistics, as I see no general way of measuring genetics.
 
Lateralus said:
Hi Totentanz..
What is the tollerance of the calculators mentioned? ..How do they work?
I'd imagine calculations to be very inacurate for anything other than statistics, as I see no general way of measuring genetics.
Click to expand...

As I understand it these calculators are reasonably accurate at predicting the maximums for a natural lifter, though genetics can certainly shave a bit off the maxes.
 
I have considered trying some legal routes to gain more mass such as experimenting with insulin or legal peptides but the peptides are all expensive and I'm scared of insulin. Not sure what else I can do though since I'm not satisfied with the size I have just yet.
Click to expand...
Hell I’d find a doctor willing to prescribe testosterone or steroids before messing with insulin. I’m even a little worried about what UD2 might be doing to my insulin levels.

I’ve not looked into testosterone or steroids since right now it’s not something I want to consider, but, and correct me if I’m wrong, aren’t gains from artificially stimulating anabolism going to slip away anyway once stopping the drugs? I would think the same would also happen with other routes that artificially change hormone levels.
 
Grunt - the thing with steroids is that while gains above and beyond your natural max will tend to not stick if you don't run periodic cycles, they DO permanently alter your maximum potential so that someone who has run steroids at some point will always have higher maximum potential strength and size than if they had not. There are some things that they alter permanently. And if you stay on long enough then your body also produces more androgen receptors as well, so...
I've been doing some research into various peptides and into insulin and I think it's relatively safe as long as you know what you are not prone to problems with insulin. Nobody in my family is diabetic and there are some rather obese people in my family, as well as a few alcoholics, all things that can cause diabetes, so I think I would probably be ok. Anyway, it's just a thought for some day in the future when/if I think I am ready. Might never do it.
I could easily get my hands on a variety of AAS but I would prefer to keep only legal things in my life for various reasons. I also don't really want to have to have needles, sharps containers and all the other stuff I would have to have for that, since I have kids and everything... never know what they might get into. Getting it prescribed is a lot less likely... I would have a hard time convincing a doctor that my T levels are low. My dad is 55 or 56 this year, can't remember which, and he couldn't get it because his T levels are still in the middle normal range, so I'm probably doomed to having healthy T levels quite late in life and won't ever get to enjoy legally prescribed testosterone. Oh well.

Lateralus - the max size calculators here on this site and on Casey Butt's site are both based on elite natural BBers so basically it's pretty much an upper limit for someone with good genetics. My genetics I'd say probably aren't amazing or anything, I used to be rail thin growing up, so I probably won't exceed them overall. Obviously there are variances though, like for instance my chest and upper arms are smaller than the predicted maxes but my thighs, calves and forearms are larger than the predicted maxes.
Honestly, I think I would be satisfied to maintain the size I have in those bodyparts that are at or above my predicted max and gain size in my chest and upper arms until they are at the predicted max. I'm pretty sure then I would be satisfied and could just maintain it for the rest of my life.
Maybe.
 
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