Discussion in 'Diet & Nutrition' started by Ruhl, Aug 3, 2005.
Is it ok to drink soy milk? Is the estrogenic effect of soy milk significant?
I remember reading one study, can't remember who wrote it, that showed something like a reduction of 9 to 15% on testosterone, DHT and increases in estradiol and estrone. The higher the isoflavone content of the soy milk the higher the reponse.
Holy crap, I can't believe I missed that one. Soy milk?! I almost drank a truckload of that... Does anything with "soya" on it also contain a truckload of those isoflavones (or just the "milk" variety?
I must admit, this one had me totally surprised. (SOY MILK?! Who would have thought... )
Honestly, I'm not all that sure. I remember another looking at Tofu and other soy but I really do not remember the outcome. Also remember that these results where only one study off my memory and others show beneficial resluts with PSA and Prostate growth, also some cardiovascular risks reduction, so it depends on what your goal would be also.
Well, at least that's a bit of relief. Although I don't drink soy milk, I do tend to consume other soya products, and the tuna I eat regularly (3 cans a day, 21 cans a week) has soya oil listed in its ingredients.
I guess this is just another thing I have to add to the list of things I should look more into. But honestly, if this goes badly, I don't know what to do, I really don't want to fix my diet again. (I'll have to go back to eating pizza and cheeseburgers... hmmm, not such a bad idea! )
Why don't you eat tuna packed in water?
Well, simply because they taste like crap. So much so that it takes me an hour to finish just one can!
But if soya oil does come up to be "unfriendly" to bodybuilders (well, at least male ones), I don't really have much of a choice.
I personally feel the opposite, the ones packed in oil taste like oil. I like Bumblebee packed in water the best, it's one of my staples, mix a can with a tablespoon of flax oil and some mustard woohooo yum yum. Or for a change eat it dry, ummm tastes like chicken, yeah right.
yeah right indeed If I find tuna that tastes like chicken when dry, I'd buy a lifetime supply of that one.
It's not really the tuna in oil that I eat. I also don't like the tuna in "Spanish oil" or "whatever oil". It's the tuna with additional flavors that I eat (they're supposed to taste like some yummy dish or what, they never really do, but at least they taste better than the plain ones). They just have soya oil too, which I never thought might be a big deal.
The problem I have with those packed in plain water is they just taste so bland. I can't eat so much of it, especially with rice (it's like mixing together two bland foods... oh wait, that's because it is actually mixing together two bland foods).
So before I go dig up this whole soya controversy, I'll offer about a hundred prayers first that the soya oil isn't turning me into a girl. (Hey, I already ate almost 80 cans in the past 5 weeks)
1. I don't mind the taste of tuna in water, but sometimes I use plain yougurt instead of mayo and stir in some Italian bread crumbs for taste. Yum, (to me at least)
2. How much soy oil are you really getting in each can? I doubt it's very much at all, unless you are drinking what's left in the can after the tuna is gone
3. With that much tuna consumption, shouldn't you be worried more about trace toxins building up in your body, mercury, PCB's, etc. ?
I've read through study after study and article after article of the "real" story about soy and the isoflavones, and I must say, the most scientific conclusion we have (or atleast I have) is: we need more studies!!!
Genistein and diadzein, the two isoflavones, were repeatedly cited in many articles both pro- and anti- soy. The pro-soy mentioned their effects were ok. The anti-soy mentioned they were not ok. Both cited different studies. One study that used Rhesus monkeys found that soy proteins had no effects on the reproductive hormones of these animals. testosterone, DHEA, sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG), testicular weight, prostatic weight, and other measurements were taken. No difference was found between male animals who ate soy protein that contained the plant estrogens and those who ate soy with the estrogens removed, leading researchers to conclude:
"Thus, the isoflavones (genistein and diadzein) in soy protein improve cardiovascular risk factors without apparent deleterious effects on the reproductive system...,"
"Genistein's effects appear to be tissue specific, with estrogen agonist effects on plasma lipid concentrations, plasma lipoprotein distributions and preservation of bone mass that are similar in magnitude to mammalian estrogens, but without estrogenic effects..."
They finally conclude,
"Our data support an interpretation that soy bean estrogens have tissue specificity in part because of their mixed estrogen agonist and antagonist properties."
From this and other data it seems the phytoestrogens in soy can lower cholesterol and improve heart disease risk without systemic estrogenic effects (i.e. gyno, body fat increases, etc.) that would normally be seen if a bodybuilder took estrogen pills or from the conversion of certain steroids to estrogen.
Now, I could also cite research that's anti-soy, but since Dan already did that above, it would only be redundant. The point is, there seems to be no "definitive" conclusion yet.
And anyway, as Dood mentioned, the soya oil I get there is pretty small. Like every other human being I guess, I drain the can before eating the tuna.
And to Dood,
Is your concern because they come in cans? (Because I don't recall tuna having those specific concerns, but that could simply be because I missed them). If the concerns are about canned foods, well, there really is no other alternative for me right now. Anything that takes longer to prepare than just opening a can and draining the liquid won't work for me. My schedule just won't allow it right now. So canned food is all I can eat right now. In that respect I can also eat other canned goods like Spam or corned beef, but if I eat them instead of tuna, my cholesterol and sodium and saturated fat would skyrocket. So I really have no feasible alternative right now but eat canned tuna. So whether it's the traces toxins mercury and PCB's you are talking about comes from the can or from the tuna itself, I really don't have much of a choice right now.
No, I'm not concenred about the cans
It's the albacore tuna that is most at risk, probably because they are larger fish. Large predator fish are usually more at risk for accumulating mercury and other contaminants.
Many other articles can be found by searching. For most people it's not a big concern, but many BBers eat lots of tuna, so it might be a concern.
Whew! I thought it was going to be another controversy regarding aluminum cans.
Well, as for the tuna, well, can't do much about it right now. Like I said, I can only get by with canned goods right now, and if it's not tuna, it'd be other food that'd give me significantly more kinds of bad stuff. Can't do anything right now but stick to tuna.
Thanks for the information and the links, pretty useful. I'll try finding out where the tuna comes from with regard to the company owning the specific brand of tuna I buy. I'm far away from the U.S., and I'll see if tuna advisories from my place and the place they get the tuna will turn out to be the same.
I've posted this before but I'll post it again.
The concern of mercury in canned light tuna is relatively small compared to many other larger fish varieties.
TUNA (Canned, Light) PPM
Minimum Not Determined
Sample Size 131
Thank you! Actually, yeah, that was what I got when I searched for canned tuna specifically. Sure, fresh frozen tuna has killer mercury in them, especially big ones like Albacore, but the canned variety uses younger and much smaller fish, and the mercury in them is pretty small.
I was just waiting for an expert like you to say it is so, so I can rest assured I'm not contaminating myself with all the tuna I'm eating, because I am pretty much gaining like crazy, and I sure as hell didn't want it to stop.
Not to turn this into the Tuna thread, I think that would be considered a tampon string anyway.
Not to say that an over accumulation of tuna wouldn't do someone harm and I am no way saying eat tuna all day or even what amounts would be considered safe. I personally eat quite a bit of it and so far (besides my penis having this strange red line with all these numbers next to it appear as it gets hot outside) I haven't noticed any ill effect.
No WAY?!! Eating tuna turned your weenis into a thermometer?? That is amazing!! That has to be one of the most incredibile things I have ever heard of!! Where is Ripley's when you need em??
P.S. I do realize that there is a joke about a gay guy with a fever that you could help with, Dan, but I am going to spare you the harrasment. hehehe
Hmmm... good gains plus getting a handy dandy thermometer... ok, i can live with that
Hey, Yall I just read a study on the mercury levels in fish and it said that canned tuna (chunk light,not albacore) and salmon were among the lowest in mercury content. I cant remember the source, Ill try to find it again.
It really put me at ease because I eat more tuna than your average great white shark, Havnt noticed any ill effects besides these dang pesky gills growing on my lats. And you gotta eat somethin right? A negligible amount of mercury in tuna really doesnt compare to what we probably breath in in contaminants during the average cross-town car ride.
from a Traditional Chinese Medicine standpoint all soy products are very damp(Yin) and cooling(Yin), so if you display signs of a dry
(Yang)-heat(Yang) pattern then you may find moderate amounts of soy to be balancing.
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