Low Carb Refeeds a No-No?

[Camelia]

A while back when reading on MFW Lyle alluded to the fact that the effectiveness of keto diets could be attributed to the use of weekly refeeds and their subsequent effect on leptin levels etc.

However, reading John Berardi's column this week he seems to eschew the whole refeed theory saying;

"When on a low carbohydrate diet and rapid fat loss is your number one priority, it seems like cheat meals and periodic refeeding aren't good ideas. Simply eliminate calories from your diet and/or increase your exercise activity."

This would seem he favours something like a "fat-fast" diet plan over the low carb plan advocated by Lyle. The reason I ask is that recently a friend who is very overweight went on a low carb-keto diet and has had little success with it. She's eating 1200-1300 calories a day and has devoted a monk like discipline to following the diet. (I work with her and see her eat breakfast, morning tea, and lunch) She trains martial arts 3-5 times a week, and weight trains 2-3 times a week.

Once a week she has a refeed with very little fat and moderate protein and carbs. But she seems to be losing very little in the way of fat or even body weight. Considering that she is very overweight, logic would dictate that even some weight loss would have been possible by now. (She has been following it for almost two months and her body fluctuates by 1-2 kilos)

Do you think maybe the refeeds are the problem? I think the refeeds are a good idea, not just from a physilogical point of view but makes sense psychologically if you can follow a diet knowing you can relax it a little on the weekend.

What does everyone else think?

 

[Lars]

This is just my humble opinion, so take it for what it's worth...

The *only* reason for taking a refeed is if you're doing very hard weight training. Bouncing around a couple of something I'm sure Lyle would call pink dumbells does not do the trick. Also, you have make sure you're depleting glycogen and making the system reading for a carb overload.

Now, 2-3 is not something that sounds like a CKD regime. Exactly x, where the last one is a depletion workout, on the other hand, is. The is the whole issue behind the refeed that breaks up the ketosis and it's very effective if done properly. I, myself, lost ~30kg fat and gained strength in a 6 month CKD.

OK - if you're not working hard enough to deplete your muscle glycogen, then you shouldn't break the ketosis for a refeed. Do a low-carb refeed, but going moderate carbs isn't any good, as far as I care, for anything than setting yourself up for a headache when entering ketosis again. And - I've never heard of a moderate carb refeed in a CKD

Now, if I were to give this person advice I would say to keep the calories low, stick with a low-carb diet and skip the refeeds until she was either down to a body far % where people would no longer call her over weigth - this is when you will need it (if I haven't misunderstood Lyle completely), and then it will be for leptin unless something serious is done in the weight training side of the equationg. My bottom line is for her to stick with one thing until she is moderately lean, and then start refeeds. She can incorporate maybe 1 cheat day every coupld of months to fool her system and feel better, but I don't think it would do the most for her system just yet.

The alternative for this person is to stick with a Zone type diet instead, if she needs the carbs every now and then. I know I would go for a keto diet.

The main point for her is consistency, and the best way to be consistent is to get all the facts. If she's going low carb she should read a book on the subject as it's a lot more tricky than just "eat less". If she's doing a bodybuilder diet like CKD, then she has to be prepared to do as bodybuilders to get results, namely train like a champion and do it religiously.

I hope my post has been worth something, and I hope it will help her to reach her goals.

Cheers!

 

[Aaron_F]

I have only had a brief read of it a few hours ago, but he just seems to be basically comming up with reasons why he didnt use it in his 'great' programs.

While I am unsure of the actual level of improvements that a refeed causes, they do cause an increase in bodyfat removal through hormonal means.
He is correct in the meaning that keto diets need a refeed to increase muscle glycogen tho,

 

[Blade]

No real glycogen depletion and adequate leptin levels (they are relatively high already in overweight people) = no refeeds.

But if nothing is happening, she definitely needs to adjust something. Lyle mentioned that he needs to go as low as 8kcals/lb BW, but 1200kcals sounds quite low to begin with - how much does she weigh?

Adding some weight training would work positively in terms of nutrient partitioning. I'd also like to take a look at her food choices.

Some people benefit from taking 2 or more weeks off the diet and eating at maintenance for a while, then start the diet again.

 

[Aaron_F]

Quote[/b] (Blade @ Jan. 05 2003,7:25)]No real glycogen depletion and adequate leptin levels (they are relatively high already in overweight people) = no refeeds.

BUt leptin will drop rapidly from the negative energy balance, and they have to note when they start feeling excessively hungry (not just normal craving) and possibly morning temp drops, as thats when they are starting to edge below the saturation levels/set point.

Quote[/b] ]Lyle mentioned that he needs to go as low as 8kcals/lb BW, but 1200kcals sounds quite low to begin with

I Have talked with lyle about this, like me he does very little everyday, so the normal idea of 10-12x doesnt work. I can go to around 8x with no appretiable loss of muscle, although strength takes a knocking.

Quote[/b] ]Some people benefit from taking 2 or more weeks off the diet and eating at maintenance for a while, then start the diet again.

I Think it was dan duchane who commented on the 2on 1 off idea for dieting. But once you get below the set point, it starts getting harder anyway. But from a purely mental standpoint, 2 weeks is easier to comprehend than doing 12 weeks straight (even with refeeds)

 

[Blade]

Quote[/b] ]BUt leptin will drop rapidly from the negative energy balance, and they have to note when they start feeling excessively hungry (not just normal craving) and possibly morning temp drops, as thats when they are starting to edge below the saturation levels/set point.

Oh yes, definitely monitor all the tell-tale signs, but in some overweight people the leptin drop just doesn't happen until they get below 20% or so.

Quote[/b] ]I Think it was dan duchane who commented on the 2on 1 off idea for dieting. But once you get below the set point, it starts getting harder anyway. But from a purely mental standpoint, 2 weeks is easier to comprehend than doing 12 weeks straight (even with refeeds)

I was thinking more in terms of 6-10 weeks 'on', then 1-2 weeks 'off'.

 

[Camelia]

Quote[/b] (Lars @ Jan. 04 2003,3:07)]

Quote[/b] ]The *only* reason for taking a refeed is if you're doing very hard weight training. Bouncing around a couple of something I'm sure Lyle would call pink dumbells does not do the trick. Also, you have make sure you're depleting glycogen and making the system reading for a carb overload.

This is the problem with the way some of the diets are communicated to the general/unknowledgeable user. They read something like the T-Dawg diet which recommends a one day/one meal re-carb per week (even if overweight) and follow it verbatim. Especially when you read comments like this from a guy as respected as Lyle;

"In hindsight, I really feel that the carb-load was the reason that the Bodyopus diet worked, not the keto phase so much."

Quote[/b] ]
Now, 2-3 is not something that sounds like a CKD regime. Exactly x, where the last one is a depletion workout, on the other hand, is. The is the whole issue behind the refeed that breaks up the ketosis and it's very effective if done properly. I, myself, lost ~30kg fat and gained strength in a 6 month CKD.

My husband achieved similar results and was only training 2 and sometimes 3 times a week and totally skipped the depletion workout. I think even Lyle questioned the need for a depletion workout in his revised thoughts on the CKD, but don't quote me exactly until I can pull his quote from our "Lyle-Files".

Quote[/b] ]
OK - if you're not working hard enough to deplete your muscle glycogen, then you shouldn't break the ketosis for a refeed. Do a low-carb refeed, but going moderate carbs isn't any good, as far as I care, for anything than setting yourself up for a headache when entering ketosis again. And - I've never heard of a moderate carb refeed in a CKD

Isn't working "hard enough" all relative though? I would consider this person one of the hardest and most committed people I know when it comes to training/dieting, and it is heartbreaking to see the lack of results. She is training towards her black belt in jiujitsu (which is demanding in itself) and is one of the strongest females I know. Granted she probably has some advantage in lifting due to her weight, but she is seriously considering taking up competitive power/Olympic lifting after she achieves her black belt. And she was a competitive swimmer when she was a teen. She just wants to lose some dang weight first.

Quote[/b] ] My bottom line is for her to stick with one thing until she is moderately lean, and then start refeeds. She can incorporate maybe 1 cheat day every coupld of months to fool her system and feel better, but I don't think it would do the most for her system just yet.

I mentioned this to her last night and she felt that maybe a fulltime Atkins might be a better approach.

Quote[/b] ] If she's going low carb she should read a book on the subject as it's a lot more tricky than just "eat less".

But haven't thousands of people lost weight on similar diets without having any notion oh how these diets work? The obese beginner seem to respond particularly well to low carbs intially, this is why her case is so dang puzzling.

Granted, I forward her the relevant articles and information, but everything we've read on the subject sugests the one day carb up.

Quote[/b] ]I hope my post has been worth something, and I hope it will help her to reach her goals.

Yes it has thanks! I like to read information that analyses both sides of the coin as it stimulates my thinking into new directions.

 

[Camelia]

Quote[/b] ] Lyle mentioned that he needs to go as low as 8kcals/lb BW, but 1200kcals sounds quite low to begin with - how much does she weigh?

She's 5'8 and hovers around the 85-88kg mark. I sometimes feel hesitant about recommending lower calories as she suffered from anorexia when she was a competitive swimmer and I would hate to see her caught in the same cycle again. Would taking calories to the 1000cals mark be advisable in her case you think?

Quote[/b] ]I'd also like to take a look at her food choices.

I will find this out tommorrow. We worked them out together, but I can't seem to find the saved file.

Quote[/b] ]I was thinking more in terms of 6-10 weeks 'on', then 1-2 weeks 'off'.

Just quoting my Lyle again
"Even Dan’s old dieting scheme was 4 weeks diet, 2 weeks off, 4 weeks diet, 2 weeks off."

 

[Blade]

Do you have access to the Lyle's Keto forum? If not, I can post a thread there on your friend's problem, I'd also find Lyle's take on it valuable...

 

[Camelia]

Quote[/b] ]Do you have access to the Lyle's Keto forum?

No, apart from the MFW archives on google, I didn't know he had another forum.

If you had the link that would be great!: even for research purposes alone. Thanks Blade

 

[Lars]

I would ask Lyle too, if I were you.

My point with the post was that I didn't see why she would do such a moderate refeed. Going very low fat and moderate carbs and protein just didn't sound like it would do much good for anything except getting out of ketosis, and then have to go through, if I'm not mistaken, the catabolic phase of entering ketosis again.

Also, I, personally, don't see the reason to refeed until signs are developed that something needs to be done. If she can still lose weight (after she discovers what her body needs) 7 days a week, then she should diet 7 days a week. When this slows down (or one of many other signs) she should incorporate refeeds to get things going again. And then I believe they should be a bit higher than moderate carb/protein.

Cheers,

Lars

 

[Camelia]

Quote[/b] (Lars @ Jan. 05 2003,5:17)]

Quote[/b] ]
My point with the post was that I didn't see why she would do such a moderate refeed. Going very low fat and moderate carbs and protein just didn't sound like it would do much good for anything except getting out of ketosis, and then have to go through, if I'm not mistaken, the catabolic phase of entering ketosis again.

At this stage, the one day carb up (if you can even call it that) is for psychological and social reasons. I don't see how a small carb up, which is basically within the confines of the parameters of nearly every one of these low card diets save Atkins can really be the sole detriment to the diet.

I find it difficult to believe that even at this stage, a one day "carb up" will negate 6 days of ultra strict-low calorie dieting.

I think the whole issue of ketosis has been greatly overemphasised in the early explorations of these low carb diets, with what seems like now for little reason. People were losing weight without ever going into ketosis on these diets. My husband never went into ketosis once despite constant testing in the beginning with the ketostix. After a while he didn't even bother checking anymore because the fat loss was like clockwork, in spite of a 36 hour carb up.

I think bodybuilders find the whole "ketosis" thing exotic because they get to pee on little strips of paper and see if it turns different colours, and it appeals to the mad scientist that lurks within us all.

 

[Blade]

Lyle's forum is accessible only for those who bought his book.

Hey Lars - got a new avatar there, is that you?

 

[Mark Thomson]

I see you've posted Camelia's prblem on the keto forum, Blade,I'm sure she'll have some good info soon. btw, purchase of the book is only required for posting priveledges, you can still look. Camelia, the link to the keto forum is
Mark
http://the ketogenicdiet.com

 

[Camelia]

Quote[/b] (Mark Thomson @ Jan. 05 2003,12:38)]I see you've posted Camelia's prblem on the keto forum, Blade,I'm sure she'll have some good info soon. btw, purchase of the book is only required for posting priveledges, you can still look.

Hi Mark,

I tried the link, but when I try to access the board to read, it won't allow me and asks me to enter my verification number.

Thanks for posting my question though Blade.

 

[Lars]

Blade,

yup, that's me! I was 5 kg fatter, but...I still look the same

Camelia: did you get my email ? You should try Active Low-Carbers Forum for some help for your friend. They've got everything from people hardly getting out of their couches to extreme workoholics so I guess there must be some good advice to get there. They've egen got Australian groups!

Cheeers

 

[Blood&Iron]

Quote[/b] (Blade @ Jan. 05 2003,11:44)]Lyle's forum is accessible only for those who bought his book.

Nah, anybody can access it. Your just can't post.

Leave the box where you enter the code blank, and hit 'Confirm' (or whatever the button is) anyway. It'll say something like 'Would you like to read the forum without posting privileges?' Of course, you do, so hit 'yes'.

You're in.

 

[Lars]

You should be able to post, too. I just don't remember what I did back when I registered there, but I wrote something generic in the registration box and it worked. I'll see if I can find out...

 

[Blood&Iron]

Quote[/b] (Lars @ Jan. 06 2003,5:43)]You should be able to post, too. I just don't remember what I did back when I registered there, but I wrote something generic in the registration box and it worked. I'll see if I can find out...

That was a bug. It's since been fixed.

 

[Blade]

Lyle's response:

"This is the problem, 1200-1300 cal/day at 195 lbs and all that activity is WAY too low.

have her up calories to the 10 cal/lb mark and see what happens. She may need to go higher than that.

And Berardi is wrong about refeeds becuase, he, like most people, don't understand the leptin system (which is probably the nicest thing I've ever said about the guy).

Lyle
"

I'd expect a sloooow metabolism after weeks of very low calorie dieting, so maybe a progressive increase to maintenance calories (15-16g/lbs BW) for a short time period previous to a new diet is a wise decision.