multiple sets important?

[stevejones]

<div>
(scientific muscle @ Nov. 20 2006,17:50)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">WOW! 18 solid replies from some of our best forum members.

This thread turned out to be very informative.  Basically as long as you are training enough to stimulate your muscles the number of sets is not as important.  Obviously one set works...look at the results!  But wether or not it is &quot;ideal&quot; is up to question.

I thought you guys would like to know that I decided to just stick with what was getting me results...MAX-STIMULATION!Doing one set of 8 reps didn't do much for me because today I felt no soreness and didn't even feel as if I worked out yesterday.  I went back into the gym today and did a full on max-stim workout.

Squats-120k(264lb.s) x20
Dead-lifts-110k(242lb.s) x10 (still learning form in this exercise.)
Chin-ups-Bodyweight x20
BB Rows-70k(154lb.s) x10(doing only 10 reps for deads and rows...lowerback)
Incline Press- 60k(132lb.s) x20 (this is at 55 degrees, hit delts and upper pecs)
Wide-grip Dips- Bodyweight+15lb.s x20
DB upright rows- 30lb.s dumbells x20

I am sticking with max-stim training, that way I don't need to worry about sets at all!  Just reps and m-time!

Also it helps me lift heavy and still get plenty of reps in.

</div>
Rock on

Have you ever tried dumbbell flies or dumbbell presses with max-stim ? If so, how do you rest properly ?

 

[scientific muscle]

I just purchased power-hooks, but still it is more difficult to do max-stim with dumbells presses, etc. Most guys just don't bother with DBs for flyes and presses.
Power-hooks would help doing max-stim and is the main reason I got them.

 

[Joe.Muscle]

Yeah Scientific, if you were already accustomed to 20 reps...8 is not going to do it IMO.

Just maintenance...unless you do a really long SD.

Good luck!

 

[liegelord]

Just had to add that Max-Stim works great with chins.

 

[mikeynov]

The problem with a low volume strength approach while overeating is that a lot of people are simply going to gain a lot of fat while getting strong. Hence the &quot;lardgainer&quot; jokes.

Shaf on the Bodyrecomp/P&amp;B board commented on this, low volume + frequency = good for strength, but the &quot;powerbuilding&quot; approach using a fair bit of volume with lots of accessory stuff describes the approach of the larger strength types a lot better on average, imho.

Some people can get away with lower volume, prosper on it even, but I think the &quot;genetically average&quot; person, whatever that means, isn't going to fulfill his or her natural potential on a low volume, one set per exercise (unless he makes it up with a LOT of different exercises) type protocol. Regardless of food intake.

I DO think there are ways to maximize the effective volume dose, as it were, and I think max-stim (or even something like DC with the rest/pause and weighted stretches) is definitely headed in the right direction on that end.

But even in that example, the default reps per exercise = 20, which is probably an average of ~3 sets in conventional bodybuilding ranges (8-12). Max-stim is more interesting to me, however, as the density of training (volume per unit time) is much higher than conventional training, which I do believe may add to the hypertrophy stimulus. Plus the more first reps angle, and the relation of that to strain (as strain decreases with mounting fatigue).

 

[scientific muscle]

Why Max-stim works from a practical view point....
I can lift X weight 20 times without getting exhausted. I thought I could do the same thing with conventional sets...tried 5x5 and just wasn't up to it. I have described it on Dan's forum also, max-stim almost 'magically' makes you feel stronger rep after rep, of course this is due to the fatigue management of m-time, the whole idea behind max-stim in the first place. Dan can describe why it works biologically, but I just know by resting between each rep, I can do alot more than normal. Like leige said about chins, I stink at chin-ups I cn only do about 10 reps in a conventional manner. But with m-time between reps, I can do 20 reps with weigth on my belt. It's magic!

 

[liegelord]

scientific muscle is right. I have not done a straight max-stim workout, however, I have done it (with some clustering) on certain exercises in a workout and it's great. I appreciate it more now because after so many weeks of pounding away 3x5 and also some triples and doubles, I need less fatigue as gains are slowing, A few days off for the holiday should help though.

Anyone who considers themselves weak in chins should try max-stim the next workout, you'll be amazed at how many more reps you can get. I wish it were practical to do it with squats.

 

[Fausto]

Sci...

ONe question, for chins...do you let the grip go altogether or do you still hold onto the bar?

 

[mikeynov]

<div>
(Fausto @ Nov. 21 2006,01:05)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Sci...

ONe question, for chins...do you let the grip go altogether or do you still hold onto the bar?</div>
I'm not sci, but if you're using max-stim, you're DEFINITELY supposed to let go.

You do not want the muscle stretched and/or working during the m-time between reps. The muscle(s) being worked should be completely relaxed.

In the case of chins, that = let go of the bar, let your arms down by your sides to restore circulation etc.

 

[faz]

as far as doing one set i tried that when i did HIT and as someone pointed out on here i just got fat.
SCI you dont have to do just 1 set of 8rps why not do as i do pick a set number of reps and hit them whatever way you can,if you have been doing 20 with max-stim then carry on using 20.
i am trying to get some home equipment as soon as i do i will give max-stim a good go,
its just not practical at the gym i am at

 

[Fausto]

Mikey

Thanks I read you, so it will definitely make a difference hey? I supppose I could try it.

Thanks

 

[jvroig]

What I'm doing in my current cycle is using only 3 exercises: chins, bench, and deadlift. I decided to do a level 5x5, then when it becomes impossible to do so, used max-stim on them. Pretty cool.

1 set per exercise could work, but that would probably mean you made some &quot;warm-up&quot; sets already - see the warm-up sets Bryan recommends in the basic HST articles. It's practically a routine in itself

(kidding). With that, one &quot;work&quot; set per exercise works, because you already had enough stimulation to accompany it. In fact, the way Bryan laid it out, one work set with the warm-up sets he suggested looks like a ramping 5x5 - you start with 50%, then 60%, then.... you get the idea.

If you do only 1 work set, and really only one set, no extensive warmup, you might be cheating yourself out of some good gains.

Regards,
-JV

 

[lcars]

<div>
(scientific muscle @ Nov. 19 2006,17:32)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I recently started my new cycle...I was going to  try a 5x5 cycle since it seems to be highly recommended for strength training.  Also I was going to do an A/B split.  The problem I have is that doing a full-body workout I find it hard to do multiple sets and still have anything left in the tank at the end of the workout.

I was thinking to try one working set per exercise and just combine all my A+B exercises into one workout.  I know there is alot of theory about one effective set being all that is needed.  Bryan Haycock recommends starting with one set and adding if you need it.  There are a couple of hulking guys here on HST forum who have been lifting for years and have gotten really big and strong doing only one set per exercise consistently (old &amp; grey, stevejones)  Recently I read a study which used trained individuals and had one group do 1 set and the next group do 3 sets, and both groups had the same gains!

Anyway I started my 5x5 routine and felt it was too much work, especially during the heavier lifts like dead-lifts, squats, chin-ups, etc.  Today I did an experiment and tried doing all my lifts in one session doing one warm-up set and one working set of 8 reps.  The workout lasted under 40 minutes doing 8 exercises and I felt plenty of stress to my muscles.  I may just stick with this set-up for awhile.

If old &amp; grey and stevejones can get such great results naturally with one working set per exercise, then why not me?

</div>
ive been doing 2 sets for a while,but at one time i would do only one effective set,adding in alot more exercises to hit everything.basically putting an a/b split together.

i have to say it worked,but with one set i just didnt feel id worked out hard enough,even though intensity was high.

 

[Old and Grey]

Following up on what Icars said, intensity in any program is a very personal thing. Some people prefer to take longer rest periods and require more sets but can use heavier weights. Other people prefer to 'get er done' and have virtually no rest between sets of various exercises but, obviously, cannot go as heavy as the 'resters'. I think you can cause a similar amount of muscle trauma with either way. It is a matter of how much time you want to spend in the gym versus doing other things and how much 'pain', either anerobic or aerobic, you don't mind suffering. Unfortunately, I have never seen any studies done to validate either method for hypertrophy although there are some that suggest more rest is better for strength gains.

My suggestion; try them both and evaluate your gains, not just which feels better, based on what your specific goals are.

 

[faz]

<div>
(jvroig @ Nov. 21 2006,13:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What I'm doing in my current cycle is using only 3 exercises: chins, bench, and deadlift. I decided to do a level 5x5, then when it becomes impossible to do so, used max-stim on them. Pretty cool.

1 set per exercise could work, but that would probably mean you made some &quot;warm-up&quot; sets already - see the warm-up sets Bryan recommends in the basic HST articles. It's practically a routine in itself

(kidding). With that, one &quot;work&quot; set per exercise works, because you already had enough stimulation to accompany it. In fact, the way Bryan laid it out, one work set with the warm-up sets he suggested looks like a ramping 5x5 - you start with 50%, then 60%, then.... you get the idea.  

If you do only 1 work set, and really only one set, no extensive warmup, you might be cheating yourself out of some good gains.

Regards,
-JV</div>
jv that is what we used to do in the 70s i used to do 12,10,8, increasing the weight everytime then 2 sets of 6 reps worksets.
agree with o&amp;g but i have never been able to take to long between sets i get cold to easily and bored.

 

[Old and Grey]

<div>
(faz @ Nov. 22 2006,03:47)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">i have never been able to take to long between sets i get cold to easily.</div>
Wear clothes and stop showing off to the ladies.

 

[faz]

<div>
(Old and Grey @ Nov. 22 2006,16:54)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(faz @ Nov. 22 2006,03:47)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">i have never been able to take to long between sets i get cold to easily.</div>
Wear clothes and stop showing off to the ladies.    

 

</div>

 

[Cova]

<div>
(faz @ Nov. 20 2006,23:12)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">as far as doing one set i tried that when i did HIT and as someone pointed out on here i just got fat.
SCI you dont have to do just 1 set of 8rps why not do as i do pick a set number of reps and hit them whatever way you can,if you have been doing 20 with max-stim then carry on using 20.
i am trying to get some home equipment as soon as i do i will give max-stim a good go,
its just not practical at the gym i am at

 

</div>
I have been using the HIT method as well. Getting fat just means you overate, which is extremely common for people bulking up. I am gain some fat from bulking, but i also increase my sitting bench press by 10 pounds every workout.(I however allow 4-6 days between workouts)

With HIT, it all depends on how hard u are really working. In Ellington Darden's book, he mention guys were puking after barbell curls.

HIT is a type of workout that is better put to use when you have a partner that will help you get to true failure.

You will benefit more from couting everything you eat, even though it can be a hassle when you arent eating anything out of a box, like me.

As far as supplements are concerned:
L-carnitine, Amino Fuel, Mega 2 Multivitamin, Gaspari Superpump, L-Glutamine, Creatine Monohydrate, and Different brands of Whey protein

 

[Lol]

Cova: too many of us here have been stung by HIT. The short of it is that training to failure does not make you grow! What I mean by that is that it's not failure that's important, it's load on the muscle tissue. Regularly training to failure can help a lot with endurance but it will do diddley squat for your muscle size unless you are able to regularly increase the loads.

Any one new to HIT training (or pretty much any kind of training) will make good gains initially as they will be able to increase the loads regularly enough. However, it usually isn't that long before gains slow up and then stop (around 6 months for me). Unfortunately, however hard you try after that, your progress will be poor.

Regularly hammering one's CNS can cause some folks to get ill more frequently (I for one was always getting colds when I did HIT).

It's not all bad though.  

The good thing about HIT is that it initially recommends a 3 x weekly, full body w/o schedule consisiting mainly of compounds. (Of course, when progress slows you are told to decrease your w/o frequency rather than to better manage fatigue so you can keep frequency higher).

After reading up on HST principles you will hopefully find answers to questions that may have bugged you about other training methods, includng HIT. HST isn't magic but it does tie up a lot of research into a few principles that you can use any way you like to make your training more productive.

By the way, your 10lb increase every w/o to your machine bp is great progress but enjoy it while you can. I guarantee it won't last.  

 

[Old and Grey]

Training to failure can make you grow. No doubt about it. It also is a pretty good way to get injured.