multiple sets important?

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(scientific muscle @ Nov. 26 2006,16:30)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Scientifically, there is enough evidence that more than one set may not produce significantly different results than multiple sets.  Most of these studies looked at strength, some also at hypertrophy.
This study from 2000 used trained subjects and measured both muscle mass and strength increases, no difference was found between the one set group and the three sets group.  So my original question which started this thread-&quot;Is more than one set necessary?&quot;
I think the answer is 'NO.'

This is based both on scientific studies and real life people like Steve Jones who is probably the most muscular person to respond to this thread and who does only one top work set per exercise and is training naturally.

Here is a link to the study:RE volume study, 2000

(*edit-this conclusion is based on high-frequency training like 3/week such as HST advocates, plus doing a decent variety of exercises.  If you are only doing 4-5 different exercises and training only twice/week or less, then multiple sets will most likely be superior.  Other studies have shown a benefit to mutiple sets, but these were usually based on only doing a very few basic exercises.)</div>
I think that guys really have to listen to their bodies, and, unfortunately, I don't see how that's possible unless you are taking your workouts very seriously.  Guys who push their bodies to the limits notice the small subtle things like fatigue much better than guys who pursue this as a leisurely hobby.  

I started doing one set because 2 or 3 sets would get me too fatigued to achieve my strength goals in HST.  You also have to remember that I am cutting so am doing cardio twice per day on off days and once per day on lifting days.  All I have been trying to do while cutting is to keep my strength, and it's a real b*tch.

If I don't meet my 'x rep maximum' at the end of a 2 week cycle, I'm crushed and feel very bad about it.  So, I admit that I conserve my energy in workouts by doing only 1 set to achieve my goal.  This kind of program might not work for other guys, ESPECIALLY if they aren't obsessed over the numbers they put up.  I know it is working well for me.  I'd also like to reiterate from other posts I've made that my sub max numbers are a high percentage of my max numbers.  
Example: my FIRST 10 rep set (in a 2 week 10 rep cycle)for shoulder press is 50 lbs less than my max set, so that makes my first set 83% of my max set.  If your max 10 rep set was only 100 lbs for shoulder press, and you started off with 50 lbs on your first day of the 2 week cycle, that's only 50% of your max set...big difference there.

I think O&amp;G said it best--he basically said you make a lot of progress when your calories are inline with the work effort you put in the gym. I try to do a good job of that.
 
Absolutely correct steve. Since you do take lifting seriously, and put so much effort into increasing the load every cycle....even at your advanced stage it works for you. I am the same way, I have never liked doing multiple sets because anything more than one top set, felt like too much. Max-stim helps me in that I only do one set, but still get a good number of reps in.
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Even as a teenager, since my workouts were created from the studies done in The New High Intensity Training book, I make sure I work my body hard out of just one set.

The only time I have ever increased reps over 12 or increased sets is if I am not able to get a hold of a specific weight.
 
Multiple sets do not matter, the amount of work/intensity per workout is what makes the significant diference. However, I am almost certain that work outputs from different RM are not created equal even if the output calculation in Joules are the same. 1000 joules of work done in 15 reps is going to have a different effect on the fiber breakdown from 1000 joules of work done in 5 reps.

I think there should be a study done on what I just stated to not only proof this idea but to show which is more ideal for certain situations. If not I will do the study when I hit my Physical Therapy studies in college.
 
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(scientific muscle @ Nov. 26 2006,20:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">HST FAQ

99% of training questions can be answered here.</div>
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So its ok for u to ask but ummm...even though my question/concerns are along the lines of yours and in your thread...I should search....


haha



I love internet forums!
 
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(scientific muscle @ Nov. 26 2006,16:30)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Scientifically, there is enough evidence that more than one set may not produce significantly different results than multiple sets. Most of these studies looked at strength, some also at hypertrophy.
This study from 2000 used trained subjects and measured both muscle mass and strength increases, no difference was found between the one set group and the three sets group. So my original question which started this thread-&quot;Is more than one set necessary?&quot;
I think the answer is 'NO.'

This is based both on scientific studies and real life people like Steve Jones who is probably the most muscular person to respond to this thread and who does only one top work set per exercise and is training naturally.

Here is a link to the study:RE volume study, 2000

(*edit-this conclusion is based on high-frequency training like 3/week such as HST advocates, plus doing a decent variety of exercises. If you are only doing 4-5 different exercises and training only twice/week or less, then multiple sets will most likely be superior. Other studies have shown a benefit to mutiple sets, but these were usually based on only doing a very few basic exercises.)</div>
You can probably find and count the number of naturals who will fulfill their potential with only a single set internet-wide on probably one hand. Though the line is probably blurred if you start including lots of different exercises (ala early AJ routines), as that's another way of getting in volume besides multiple sets of a given exercise.

My two cents.

The one set approach is okay (maybe even optimal for some % of the population), but the amount of people who found success going higher volume after stagnating in HIT for eons is legion.
 
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(scientific muscle @ Nov. 26 2006,18:46)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Absolutely correct steve. Since you do take lifting seriously, and put so much effort into increasing the load every cycle....even at your advanced stage it works for you. I am the same way, I have never liked doing multiple sets because anything more than one top set, felt like too much. Max-stim helps me in that I only do one set, but still get a good number of reps in.
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I think it's a little questionable to call max-stim &quot;a single set&quot; approach.

Doing 20 individual reps and racking it after every rep + waiting ~5-30 seconds between reps doesn't look much like single set training to me
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In my opinion it wouldnt be one set for Max Stim. If you are concerned at all about improper tearing resulting in injuring, this is a great approach since for each rep performed in a given set, the safety of the muscle is increased.

Conclusion: The most dangerous rep is the first one and the last rep is the safest.........within reason of course.
 
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(mikeynov @ Nov. 26 2006,21:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> Though the line is probably blurred if you start including lots of different exercises (ala early AJ routines), as that's another way of getting in volume besides multiple sets of a given exercise.</div>
I said that in my post...if one were doing only 4-5 exercises then it would be better to do multiple sets, if however one is doing 12 or more exercises for the body then more than one set should not be needed.

Plus with high-frequency such as every 48 hours, the number of sets per week is not very low. Bryan himself points this out in the intro.. to HST.

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Low volume per exercise (average volume per week)
HST suggests that you limit the number of sets per exercise per workout to 1 or 2. This is based on &quot;some&quot; evidence that sets beyond the first &quot;effective&quot; set do little more than burn calories. There is nothing wrong with burning calories, but when you get to be my age you just don't have the exercise tolerance that you once did. Using hormone replacement (HRT) therapy would of course, increase the number of sets you could do without undue stress.

Some may question the validity of HST not utilizing more than 1 or 2 sets per exercise. The number of sets is set low to accommodate the frequency necessary to create an effective and consistent environment to stimulate hypertrophy. Over the course of a week, the volume isn't that different from standard splits (e.g. chest should tri, back bi, legs). (see table below) </div>

I don't agree with your stance on high-volume being necessary Mike...I am not sure which 'legions' you are talking about either. But to be fair, I don't think there is anything wrong with higher volume multiple sets as long as the trainee can handle the extra stress....even doing max-stim I will sometimes drop to only 10 total reps per exercise, if I am doing multiple exercise for the muscle group. I may just be one of the few who can't handle too much volume.
 
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(Cova @ Nov. 26 2006,21:42)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">In my opinion it wouldnt be one set for Max Stim. If you are concerned at all about improper tearing resulting in injuring, this is a great approach since for each rep performed in a given set, the safety of the muscle is increased.

Conclusion: The most dangerous rep is the first one and the last rep is the safest.........within reason of course.</div>
Actually this is totally false....I know HIT authors claim things like this, but there is absolutely zero evidence to back this up.  HIT gurus also advocate that going too total failure in a set is the 'safest' because you can't generate as much force.  That is a load of crap....the last rep in a set is the most dangerous, at least with free-weights since the form can easily slip and the trainee could easily be injured in such a weakened state holding a heavy barbell or dumbell.

(*edit-of course if you post this idea at Darden's website I am sure everyone would agree that you are right, as it probably came out of his book.)
 
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(need2eat @ Nov. 26 2006,20:40)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(scientific muscle @ Nov. 26 2006,20:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">HST FAQ

99% of training questions can be answered here.</div>
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So its ok for u to ask but ummm...even though my question/concerns are along the lines of yours and in your thread...I should search....


haha



I love internet forums!</div>
I was just pointing out that the answer to your question is there. I have read almost every article in the HST FAQ, and I find it to be one of the greatest sources of training information. Many people come to the forum but miss out on this wealth of information. Another great wealth of info. it at hypertrophy-research
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(scientific muscle @ Nov. 26 2006,22:47)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I may just be one of the few who can't handle too much volume.</div>
Then you're like me


I've been meaning to try max stim but I held off because of my rule about benching until I got my rotator cuffs up to speed. Now that they are doing well, I'll start max stim on January 2, which is after i'm through cutting and after the holidays. It better work, or I'm coming to get you (j/k)

Should be a nice change though, and hopefully I will respond to it.
 
Well I can see how you would say it is false. I do beleive that there is some truth is that the first is the worst unless you warm up the muscles and it all goes uphill from there until you get to the point where you have gone to failure, which in my opinion isn't as bad as one would think.
 
If you are growing from one conventional set....Max-stim might even be too hard for you!!!  I definitely believe you will like it as it is geared favorably to lifting heavy loads.  If you normally can do BB Rows with 300 lb.s for 10 reps for example, imagine doing a rep and dropping the bar for a few seconds, doing another rep, etc., until you have reached 20 reps!
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Of course if it turns out to be overtraining for you Steve, you can always drop the total reps.  20 was just an arbitrary number which Dan picked, as it is probably a good place to start for the majority of trainees.  I must be like you Steve, because the stronger I get, the less volume I can handle.  Even 20 reps max-stim style is daunting for me on some exercises....I have dropped it to 15 or 10 on certain exercises, still experimenting in this third cycle.
 
Good point about warming up Cova...I see what you mean there, but the first rep is not any more dangerous than any other rep as long as you are warmed up.
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(scientific muscle @ Nov. 27 2006,03:47)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I don't agree with your stance on high-volume being necessary Mike...I am not sure which 'legions' you are talking about either.</div>I think Mike is talking about most of the folks who have gotten big naturally (ie. no roids)!  
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I definitely think those doing 1 set per exercise are in the minority - which doesn't make it wrong or right. And, like you say, if you are doing multiple exercises per bodypart each session, then it's really a multiple set approach anyway.

So the number of sets we do to try to ensure we have created an effective growth stimulus, I think you'll agree, is down to some experimentation and some fatigue management so we can keep to our required frequency. Each trainee has to find this out for themselves but a guide of 15 to 20 total reps seems a good place to start.

Cova: I agree with Sci. The strain on the muscles doesn't change from rep to rep throughout the set unless your form deteriorates and the loading shifts.

Assuming form remains constant, the first rep is to all intents and purposes the same as the last. Therefore, if you have warmed up properly, the first rep will be the safest.

As fatigue builds up you are more likely to be at risk if your form drops off.

The specific exercise, rep range and strength levels also need to be taken into consideration. Using your 15RM load for curls is unlikely to lead to injury even if you go to HIT style failure, whereas your 5RM load for deads to HIT failure could see you landed in hospital with a ruined spine.

Corollary: you will read a lot of things on this board that don't sit well with HIT philosophy!  
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(Cova @ Nov. 26 2006,23:32)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Hey science, what has been more sucessful for you in terms of working with MS and HST?</div>
Up till now....heavy basic compound exercises, doing max-stim reps to 20 reps or clustering reps to 20 reps for each exercise. I have gained about 10 lb.s of muscle so far this summer and fall, would have been more but I lost some cutting. I have a solid base now and have decided to add a few exercises, and with the added exercises, possibly cut down the volume per exercise as I pointed out earlier.
The whole reason I started this thread is that I wanted to add some exercises, but couldn't handle all the volume, so I wanted to see what the consensus was as to how many sets per exercise are needed. We have our own perspective, but the general consensus seems to be less exercises=more sets; more exercises=less sets...which makes sense as the number of exercises changes, the total body volume stays somewhat constant this way.
I can handle about 120 reps per workout for the whole body, so far and this was doing 6 exercises for 20 reps every 72 hours. I may go as high as 10 exercises this cycle and plan on doing full body every 48 hours. so I may drop the reps pper exercise to accomodate for this.
As mikeynov points out this may not be for everyone, I may be in the minority as far as training volume needed.
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