Muscle Glycogen and Growth

Hit any vegetarian's website and I'll bet you find a lot on the eeevils of meat (primarily red meat) which is supposed to be chock full of parasitic eevil weevils, steroids, insectisides and a bonus of accumulated carnage that somehow gets past the livers of animals, so I don't really know. Me, I like steak.
When you speak of lifters, you have to really define recreational vs. competitive...because competitive lifters now use a lot more and different, ahem, 'enhancements' that have changed the way they look these days. They're also often stronger than trucks too, so that is skewed.
Overall, what I've seen from lowcarb dieting is that the cheat days and carb refeeds were introduced due to a.) the needed incentive to taste something different, b.) the need to refresh the metabolism as it slows and fatloss process slowed with it, and we ended up the the TKD stuff that supposedly works pretty well.
Bryan said that "Fat does not produce the same hormonal/signaling environment as carbohydrates, and thus is not as helpful for hypertrophy." But oddly, I can find studies that show that fat increases GH output. Very confusing. Perhaps it's the comparison between the two that is significant.
Since we're interested in more than just getting thinner, we have to primarily look at what works for BB'ers and doesn't. I agree that our excess carb consumptions are not how we were designed, nor was our levels of inactivity. At this point, most everything has been tried, tested and evaluated, even if mostly anecdotally. We almost always find that cutting/bulking cycles are necessary unless you don't mind very slow gains in slow bulk. My question remains: why did the lifters who've tried the lowcarb diets for bulking stop using it? Oh, and Atkins came out in '72, so I was wrong on the date.
 
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(quadancer @ Mar. 19 2008,17:22)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Hit any vegetarian's website and I'll bet you find a lot on the eeevils of meat (primarily red meat) which is supposed to be chock full of parasitic eevil weevils, steroids, insectisides and a bonus of accumulated carnage that somehow gets past the livers of animals, so I don't really know. Me, I like steak.
When you speak of lifters, you have to really define recreational vs. competitive...because competitive lifters now use a lot more and different, ahem, 'enhancements' that have changed the way they look these days. They're also often stronger than trucks too, so that is skewed.
Overall, what I've seen from lowcarb dieting is that the cheat days and carb refeeds were introduced due to a.) the needed incentive to taste something different, b.) the need to refresh the metabolism as it slows and fatloss process slowed with it, and we ended up the the TKD stuff that supposedly works pretty well.
Bryan said that &quot;Fat does not produce the same hormonal/signaling environment as carbohydrates, and thus is not as helpful for hypertrophy.&quot; But oddly, I can find studies that show that fat increases GH output. Very confusing. Perhaps it's the comparison between the two that is significant.
Since we're interested in more than just getting thinner, we have to primarily look at what works for BB'ers and doesn't. I agree that our excess carb consumptions are not how we were designed, nor was our levels of inactivity. At this point, most everything has been tried, tested and evaluated, even if mostly anecdotally. We almost always find that cutting/bulking cycles are necessary unless you don't mind very slow gains in slow bulk. My question remains: why did the lifters who've tried the lowcarb diets for bulking stop using it? Oh, and Atkins came out in '72, so I was wrong on the date.</div>
I won't put my health at risk by eating carbs again. So I guess anything that vegans tell me is futile. But yeah, vegans like to brag about their high moral status and stuff but still they are small, weak and sick.

I meant competitive lifters. Those who compete for medals or prize money. It hadn't occurred to me that we could find that many pictures of amateur or non-competitive lifters that easy.

I think cheat days, carb reload and feed cycles were introduced to take care of fears about glycogen depletion and the famous catabolic response that supposedly comes with it. If carbs inhibit GH in youth, it should do the same thing in adults. It affects a whole lot more than just GH but the point is carbs change the metabolic profile so much that any conclusion we draw from that is incorrect.

Fat loss stalls or stops only if we eat carbs. There is no two ways about it. To ensure continued fat loss, insulin must be absent. I won't argue that insulin is always absent, it is present at all times, but what matters here is the relative quantity of insulin present in the blood.

Testosterone and other hormones important for growth are not spared either. The IgF group is affected. The cholesterol group is affected which could explain why testosterone is affected since test is made from cholesterol.

I'd give you the answer to your question but I'd rather ask a broader question instead: Why did our diet become high carb all of a sudden? We've only been eating high carb for a few decades. Before that, we always ate high fat with whatever protein there was in the food. The carbs that we did eat were whole, unprocessed and unrefined. Most of it was made of fiber anyway. As a result, we didn't eat that much digestible carbs.

Come to think of it, why not eat fat to bulk? Fat contains more than twice the calories of carbs by weight. Fat contains even more calories by volume. If bulking requires a caloric surplus, fat is the best way to achieve this, yes? Is it because we fear getting fat? Let's look at the situation right now and see what really makes us fat. Don't you think it's the carbs? Take that out and the bulking problem goes away. We grow muscular without growing fat. What do you think?
 
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(Martin Levac @ Mar. 19 2008,18:02)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Why did our diet become high carb all of a sudden? We've only been eating high carb for a few decades. Before that, we always ate high fat with whatever protein there was in the food. The carbs that we did eat were whole, unprocessed and unrefined. Most of it was made of fiber anyway. As a result, we didn't eat that much digestible carbs.</div>
I don't understand your point about &quot;we've only been eating high carb for a few decades&quot;. How about the whole country of Ireland that for centuries was famous for subsisting on potatos? During the classical period there is massive evidence that the major Greek cities survived on imported grain. The Romans had their bread and circuses. The bible speaks of the ancient Egyptians living on grains, and what do you do with &quot;Man does not live on bread alone&quot;...?

I would think that historically it is much more rare that we ate much meat. That was done during feast days since the meat could not be effectively kept for more than two or three days at a time.

Or am I missing your point altogether...?
 
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(Martin Levac @ Mar. 19 2008,22:16)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">As we cut carbs, we also cut the ability to store fat in adipose tissue.</div>
White the entire post is an exercise in Taubes stupidity, this one is the best.

Cheers for the laugh
 
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(TunnelRat @ Mar. 19 2008,19:32)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Martin Levac @ Mar. 19 2008,18:02)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Why did our diet become high carb all of a sudden? We've only been eating high carb for a few decades. Before that, we always ate high fat with whatever protein there was in the food. The carbs that we did eat were whole, unprocessed and unrefined. Most of it was made of fiber anyway. As a result, we didn't eat that much digestible carbs.</div>
I don't understand your point about &quot;we've only been eating high carb for a few decades&quot;. How about the whole country of Ireland that for centuries was famous for subsisting on potatos? During the classical period there is massive evidence that the major Greek cities survived on imported grain. The Romans had their bread and circuses. The bible speaks of the ancient Egyptians living on grains, and what do you do with &quot;Man does not live on bread alone&quot;...?

I would think that historically it is much more rare that we ate much meat. That was done during feast days since the meat could not be effectively kept for more than two or three days at a time.

Or am I missing your point altogether...?</div>
By refining carbohydrate based food, we take away many nutrients including protein and fiber contained within grains for example. To get the same amount of protein, we must eat more of those carbs. As a result, it makes our diet high in carbs and low in everything else.

On the other hand, eating unrefined and unprocessed carbs means we must eat less to get the same amount of protein.

It is important to note that we don't require sugar or starch. What little glucose we need, we can get from gluconeogenesis. And even then, little to no protein is used up since lactic acid, a by-product of glycolysis, can be converted back into glucose in the liver, sparing protein.

We require protein and fat for building blocks. We can readily use fatty acids for almost all our energy needs. Or we can use ketone bodies which are derived from fatty acids.

But even then, we're not going far enough in time to understand why eating carbs creates an abnormal metabolic profile which in turn brings us to draw incorrect conclusions about the whole thing. Think of a couple of million years instead. Even 10 thousand years is not enough to bring any significant change in our genetic profile.

Historically, we survived by eating fat meat. Growing fat means we become slow and a slow prey is an easy prey. There's your natural selection criteria for not eating carbs. We're not the descendants of those who ate carbs. We're descendants of those who ate fat meat.


If you've read as much as I have, you've surely noticed that the most frequent question new lifters ask is: How do I grow bigger? And the most frequent answer to that question is invariably: Eat more. The question and the answer both come from the same lack of understanding of how our bodies work. We believe, erroneously, in the Positive Caloric Balance hypothesis. We think we must eat more to grow and eat less to shrink. I used to think that myself because that's all I ever read. If that's all there is, surely it must be true. How short sighted I was.

The hypothesis is erroneous because it assumes that intake and output are independent variables. It also assumes that fat will just get pushed into adipose tissue. It assumes by extension that fat will just be pushed out when we eat less.

I thought I could cut by reducing the amount of food I was eating. So that's exactly what I did. After all, that's what everybody was telling me. Would you believe I was eating as little as 600 calories a day and training as much as 90 minutes a day and still I wasn't losing any weight? Any weight, not muscle, not fat, nada. Maybe something was wrong? You bet. But not what you think.

I cut the carbs from my diet. The fat on my belly just goes away. Effortlessly. No hunger whatsoever. I can eat all day and not gain an ounce of fat. I can eat as much fat as I want and not gain a gram of fat. I eat anywhere between 1500 and 3500 calories a day and still I grow lean and muscular. Would you believe it? It's like miracle or magic. It only looks like a magic when we don't understand. Once we do, it all makes sense.

Do you think this is only anecdotal evidence? Sure. If I only look at myself. But there are literally millions of people who's fate is exactly the same as me. They shed the fat and gain the muscle. With no risk to speak. Indeed, health improves as soon as we cut carbs.

The hypothesis does not work because of insulin resistance. The advice to eat more, or to eat less for that matter, doesn't work either because of insulin resistance. Insulin resistance is what's it's all about.

As we eat carbs, we grow a little more insulin resistant each day. As we grow insulin resistant, we must eat more to feed our cells. As we eat more carbs, we further grow insulin resistant. And we eat more. And we grow more insulin resistant. And round we go. Until we become completely insulin resistant, especially in our lean tissues such as muscles, and become diabetic type 2.

Insulin resistance doesn't progress at the same rate for all tissue and organs. The liver is first, the muscles are second, the adipose tissue is last. So, our lipid profile gets it first then our muscles get it next. As our muscles get insulin resistant, they are resistant to both the effect of insulin on glucose and on amino acids. Because insulin is needed to push both glucose and amino acids into muscle cells. Not only do our muscles not get the energy they need, they don't get the protein either. Certainly, lifting a heavy object will immediately increase insulin sensitivity but it won't do so permanently. As soon as we eat carbs after the workout, insulin resistance is back in full force. But here's the kicker: We continue to grow fat because adipose tissue remains insulin sensitive for a very long time after muscles stopped responding.

So when we advise to eat more, the only thing those lifters will do is become more insulin resistant. Unless we also advise to cut carbs altogether.

A note on training. Regardless of what we eat, flexing our muscle will increase insulin sensitivity. But when we start with a very high insulin resistance, it's much harder to counter it. It's easier to start with a low insulin resistance. Cutting the carbs will only enhance our muscle's ability to take in amino acids.

I've been reading on the subject for some time now and if you haven't read what I did, then all we'd be doing here is disagree because we don't have the same knowledge base. It's best if you read it too and make up your own mind on the subject.

We can see why our metabolic profile is abnormal when we eat carbs.
 
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(Aaron_F @ Mar. 19 2008,20:19)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Martin Levac @ Mar. 19 2008,22:16)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">As we cut carbs, we also cut the ability to store fat in adipose tissue.</div>
White the entire post is an exercise in Taubes stupidity, this one is the best.

Cheers for the laugh</div>
Any time. I'm awaiting your apology any time in the future.

Actually, never mind. I just laugh at the irony of your post.
 
Okay, I just can't...

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I thought I could cut by reducing the amount of food I was eating. So that's exactly what I did. After all, that's what everybody was telling me. Would you believe I was eating as little as 600 calories a day and training as much as 90 minutes a day and still I wasn't losing any weight? Any weight, not muscle, not fat, nada. Maybe something was wrong? You bet. But not what you think.</div>

You are either mistaken or you are making this up. It is IMPOSSIBLE for you to not have lost weight, unless your maintenance is only 600 calories, in which case you must be a 30 lb hobbit. Or you weren't counting calories accurately.

I was actually reading your post up until you wrote that. But you lost me on that one. Try writing stuff that isn't false and maybe people will read more.
 
Seriously, reading your dire doom and gloom posts about carbs, one would think that it would be impossible to cut fat while consuming carbs. Strange that so many people have done it in the past.
 
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(TunnelRat @ Mar. 20 2008,13:32)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I would think that historically it is much more rare that we ate much meat. That was done during feast days since the meat could not be effectively kept for more than two or three days at a time.</div>
Decades Millennia

Whats a few thousand years between friends.

Paleolithic man consisted on a diet primarily of meat, but also a signficant quantity of plant based items, roots, berries, whatever range of stuff they could scavenge. This of course varied by their enviroment, some had more, some less.

They predominantly ate lean meat, as most animals of the time had relatively low levels of intramuscular/subcutaneous fat (land animals that is, there is some fat animals). However, being a good Indian, they ate the entire animal. Including any fatty tissues hidden away in areas, like bone marrow. As fat provided a energy and nutrient dense food source.

With the advent of agriculturalism (~10,000 years ago, give or take your faith..) in the neolithic period, grain and other major carb sources intakes increased, and meat levels decreased. This increase in food production allowed the growth of population, but also brought some negatives, as people suffered nutrient deficiency from eating nearly all of their energy from a couple of food sources. Eating your entire food from bread will not create a healthy enviroment. this type of low food choice, adn micronutrient deficiency is still seen in modern times, but mainly in the likes of Africa (say malawi).

In that way it was a two edged sword. People, especially the poor, suffered. However, population growth would not have occured at the same rate without the mass production of simple food sources. For good or bad, the world woudl have be a majorly different place without it.

There are multiple theories about paleo diets being great because we evolved on them. Most are stuck at the &quot;we didnt evolve on it so it must be bad, lets look for reasons why, and ignore everything to the contrary&quot; sort of thing that Loren Cordain puts out.
 
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(Martin Levac @ Mar. 20 2008,14:28)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Aaron_F @ Mar. 19 2008,20:19)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Martin Levac @ Mar. 19 2008,22:16)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">As we cut carbs, we also cut the ability to store fat in adipose tissue.</div>
White the entire post is an exercise in Taubes stupidity, this one is the best.  

Cheers for the laugh</div>
Any time. I'm awaiting your apology any time in the future.

Actually, never mind. I just laugh at the irony of your post.</div>
Provide evidence that eating no carbohdrates will prevent fat storage.
 
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(Totentanz @ Mar. 19 2008,20:45)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Okay, I just can't...

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I thought I could cut by reducing the amount of food I was eating. So that's exactly what I did. After all, that's what everybody was telling me. Would you believe I was eating as little as 600 calories a day and training as much as 90 minutes a day and still I wasn't losing any weight? Any weight, not muscle, not fat, nada. Maybe something was wrong? You bet. But not what you think.</div>

You are either mistaken or you are making this up. It is IMPOSSIBLE for you to not have lost weight, unless your maintenance is only 600 calories, in which case you must be a 30 lb hobbit. Or you weren't counting calories accurately.

I was actually reading your post up until you wrote that. But you lost me on that one. Try writing stuff that isn't false and maybe people will read more.</div>
You think it's impossible therefore I'm lying. Or I'm unreliable when it comes to my own damn self. That's the extent of your logic?

If that's the case, nothing I do or say can convince you otherwise since you don't believe me. If I say something contrary to what I said before, you won't believe me any more than you do now because I'll contracting myself. Even if what I say agrees with you. If I continue to insist, you won't believe me either because I'm just saying the same thing which you don't believe anyway.

This is called an impasse. So what will it be? You continue to think I'm lying and we're stuck forever or what?
 
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(Aaron_F @ Mar. 19 2008,21:02)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Martin Levac @ Mar. 20 2008,14:28)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Aaron_F @ Mar. 19 2008,20:19)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Martin Levac @ Mar. 19 2008,22:16)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">As we cut carbs, we also cut the ability to store fat in adipose tissue.</div>
White the entire post is an exercise in Taubes stupidity, this one is the best.

Cheers for the laugh</div>
Any time. I'm awaiting your apology any time in the future.

Actually, never mind. I just laugh at the irony of your post.</div>
Provide evidence that eating no carbohdrates will prevent fat storage.</div>
Provide evidence that you can be polite with me first. Then we'll talk.
 
If you can prevent yourself from repeating Taubes lies, then we can talk.

Heres a hint for you. Insulin is not the sole determinant of fatty acid flux across the adipocyte.
 
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(Aaron_F @ Mar. 19 2008,21:11)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If you can prevent yourself from repeating Taubes lies, then we can talk.

Heres a hint for you. Insulin is not the sole determinant of fatty acid flux across the adipocyte.</div>
The insult came from you. It's yours to address. I'm waiting.
 
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(Aaron_F @ Mar. 19 2008,21:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Nice avoidance.

Instead of backing up claims, you just play the &quot;oh he's mean&quot; card</div>
Here's the deal. You begin with a statement to the effect that, somehow, I'm the stupid one. Right away, the discussion takes a wrong turn. Not by any fault of mine. Then, you ask that I provide proof of something. I can't provide proof of anything to you because a) you have shown your bias from the start and b) you have done so in an insulting manner toward me.

Further, since your bias stems from your disbelief of what Taubes wrote (nevermind that you even read the book), anything that I come up with that even closely resembles the content of this book will be summarily dismissed as just another stupid post. By you, of course.

Ultimately, you consider yourself the sole judge of the proof you ask for and this, I can't see how fair it could ever be.

To redress the situation where we can converse properly, you must apologize to me first and assure me that you will keep an open mind concerning the subject we would be discussing. The alternative is that I continue to consider that you are unable to participate in the discussion without resorting to insults and won't even acknowledge the possibility that what you know may not be correct.

I will accept nothing less.
 
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(Martin Levac @ Mar. 20 2008,15:24)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Here's the deal. You begin with a statement to the effect that, somehow, I'm the stupid one.</div>
I said your post was an exercise in &quot;Taubes stupidity&quot;

That is different than calling you stupid.

I can do that as well, but its neither here or there.


<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Right away, the discussion takes a wrong turn. Not by any fault of mine. Then, you ask that I provide proof of something. I can't provide proof of anything to you because a) you have shown your bias from the start and b) you have done so in an insulting manner toward me.</div>

You can show evidence, but choose not to. There is no &quot;cant&quot;

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Further, since your bias stems from your disbelief of what Taubes wrote (nevermind that you even read the book), anything that I come up with that even closely resembles the content of this book will be summarily dismissed as just another stupid post. By you, of course</div>.

My Bias, as you choose to call it, has nothing to do with any belief around Taubes. Its based upon my understanding of the factors behind adipocyte cell metabolism.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Ultimately, you consider yourself the sole judge of the proof you ask for and this, I can't see how fair it could ever be.</div>

Provide some science, should be easy.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">To redress the situation where we can converse properly, you must apologize to me first and assure me that you will keep an open mind concerning the subject we would be discussing. The alternative is that I continue to consider that you are unable to participate in the discussion without resorting to insults and won't even acknowledge the possibility that what you know may not be correct.

I will accept nothing less.</div>

Like most people who make unsupportable claims, they find ways of avoiding the question with side issues. Whether I insult you, or not as the case happens to be, is nothing.

The question stands on its own merits.

But you do nto want to step down that path, so you take the much traveled one.
 
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(Aaron_F @ Mar. 19 2008,21:37)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Martin Levac @ Mar. 20 2008,15:24)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Here's the deal. You begin with a statement to the effect that, somehow, I'm the stupid one.</div>
I said your post was an exercise in &quot;Taubes stupidity&quot;

That is different than calling you stupid.

I can do that as well, but its neither here or there.


<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Right away, the discussion takes a wrong turn. Not by any fault of mine. Then, you ask that I provide proof of something. I can't provide proof of anything to you because a) you have shown your bias from the start and b) you have done so in an insulting manner toward me.</div>

You can show evidence, but choose not to. There is no &quot;cant&quot;

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Further, since your bias stems from your disbelief of what Taubes wrote (nevermind that you even read the book), anything that I come up with that even closely resembles the content of this book will be summarily dismissed as just another stupid post. By you, of course</div>.

My Bias, as you choose to call it, has nothing to do with any belief around Taubes. Its based upon my understanding of the factors behind adipocyte cell metabolism.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Ultimately, you consider yourself the sole judge of the proof you ask for and this, I can't see how fair it could ever be.</div>

Provide some science, should be easy.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">To redress the situation where we can converse properly, you must apologize to me first and assure me that you will keep an open mind concerning the subject we would be discussing. The alternative is that I continue to consider that you are unable to participate in the discussion without resorting to insults and won't even acknowledge the possibility that what you know may not be correct.

I will accept nothing less.</div>

Like most people who make unsupportable claims, they find ways of avoiding the question with side issues. Whether I insult you, or not as the case happens to be, is nothing.

The question stands on its own merits.

But you do nto want to step down that path, so you take the much traveled one.</div>
Like most people with big egos, you find excuses not to apologize. I understand.

Have a good day.
 
Martin are you serious, or just trolling?  Your posts are pretty ludicrous.

Aaron_F knows more about nutritional science than probably anyone else on this board...and your arguing with him isn't helping your case.
 
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