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(style @ Sep. 03 2006,11:16)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Go read the FAQ.</div>
I did. However, there seems to be many interpretations of how HST is the most effective. With somewhat different methods employed by different people. That's why after reading this thread, I had the question.
If you don't want to answer it, simply don't reply - instead of being a smartass.
(style @ Sep. 03 2006,11:16)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Go read the FAQ.</div>
I did. However, there seems to be many interpretations of how HST is the most effective. With somewhat different methods employed by different people. That's why after reading this thread, I had the question.
If you don't want to answer it, simply don't reply - instead of being a smartass.
Volume is a personal thing. You have to figure out what works best for you and stick with that. If you were getting better results before you dropped the volume, I'd think that's a clear sign that you should increase your volume back to what it was. It's something you'll have to experiment a bit with to find out what is the sweet spot for you. Oh yeah, and you'll have to keep paying attention since this variable will change over time for you as well.
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(Totentanz @ Sep. 03 2006,11:58)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Volume is a personal thing. You have to figure out what works best for you and stick with that. If you were getting better results before you dropped the volume, I'd think that's a clear sign that you should increase your volume back to what it was. It's something you'll have to experiment a bit with to find out what is the sweet spot for you. Oh yeah, and you'll have to keep paying attention since this variable will change over time for you as well.</div>
Thank you very much for your answer. Sometimes when we are learning new things we are inundated with loads of information and we have to ask questions to sort it all out and make sure we are understanding it correctly.
As a person who's trained for a couple of years doing maximum overload, and before that just a simple 3x10 full body routine with progressive resistance, with a bit of pure PL style strength training here and there to get past plateaus, this is all very new to me.
Thanks again, and have a great day.
(Totentanz @ Sep. 03 2006,11:58)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Volume is a personal thing. You have to figure out what works best for you and stick with that. If you were getting better results before you dropped the volume, I'd think that's a clear sign that you should increase your volume back to what it was. It's something you'll have to experiment a bit with to find out what is the sweet spot for you. Oh yeah, and you'll have to keep paying attention since this variable will change over time for you as well.</div>
Thank you very much for your answer. Sometimes when we are learning new things we are inundated with loads of information and we have to ask questions to sort it all out and make sure we are understanding it correctly.
As a person who's trained for a couple of years doing maximum overload, and before that just a simple 3x10 full body routine with progressive resistance, with a bit of pure PL style strength training here and there to get past plateaus, this is all very new to me.
Thanks again, and have a great day.
Lifting N Tx
New Member
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(vagrant @ Sep. 03 2006,09:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
...I started out doing 3x15, 3x10...
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That's more volume than most do. If you stick to that and do the 4-5 sets that you plan during 5s, I suspect that you'll wind up overtraining. When you get to the 5s you'll either have to use lighter weights than you could have otherwise used or you'll need a lot of rest between sets and wind up with long workouts.
Some programs use higher volume for a few weeks, then cut volume when getting to really heavy weights (5x5 comes to mind). So if you decide higher volume works for you, you might at least consider cutting it some during the 5s, to avoid overtraining and having to cut the cycle short.
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(vagrant @ Sep. 03 2006,09:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
During the 15's and 10's I made amazing unprecedented (for me) growth - actual visible changes during the first and second 2 weeks that others were noticing. After switching to 2 sets, changes slowed down. They haven't stopped, but have gotten slower.
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What's your experience level? If relatively inexperienced, people can make significant gains with even a sub-optimal program. Most seem to report greater gains during 10s and 5s, whereas 15s are more to prepare you for the real work in 10s and 5s. Thus my question as to whether you're fairly new to weight training or else maybe had a really effective SD.
(vagrant @ Sep. 03 2006,09:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
...I started out doing 3x15, 3x10...
</div>
That's more volume than most do. If you stick to that and do the 4-5 sets that you plan during 5s, I suspect that you'll wind up overtraining. When you get to the 5s you'll either have to use lighter weights than you could have otherwise used or you'll need a lot of rest between sets and wind up with long workouts.
Some programs use higher volume for a few weeks, then cut volume when getting to really heavy weights (5x5 comes to mind). So if you decide higher volume works for you, you might at least consider cutting it some during the 5s, to avoid overtraining and having to cut the cycle short.
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(vagrant @ Sep. 03 2006,09:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
During the 15's and 10's I made amazing unprecedented (for me) growth - actual visible changes during the first and second 2 weeks that others were noticing. After switching to 2 sets, changes slowed down. They haven't stopped, but have gotten slower.
</div>
What's your experience level? If relatively inexperienced, people can make significant gains with even a sub-optimal program. Most seem to report greater gains during 10s and 5s, whereas 15s are more to prepare you for the real work in 10s and 5s. Thus my question as to whether you're fairly new to weight training or else maybe had a really effective SD.
scientific muscle
New Member
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(vagrant @ Sep. 03 2006,10:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So let me see if I'm understanding the gist of this thread to make my workouts most effective.
during the 15s - do 2 sets
during the 10s - do 3 sets
during the 5s - do 4 or 5 sets
If you approach failure during a set, put down the bar - rest a short while, finish the set.
I wonder this because I started out doing 3x15, 3x10, then during the 10's was advised that I should ONLY be doing 2 sets during any part of this workout program.
During the 15's and 10's I made amazing unprecedented (for me) growth - actual visible changes during the first and second 2 weeks that others were noticing. After switching to 2 sets, changes slowed down. They haven't stopped, but have gotten slower.
Thanks for any help to clear this up.</div>
Just aim for a target number of TOTAL reps, and don't worry about sets. I don't bother with sets at all, since I use max-stim and clustering. In max-stim I do 20 reps with brief rest between reps, in clustering I do as many reps as I can reasonably perform, then rest and then keep going until I reach 20 reps. As long as you are doing the progressive loading, and maintaining work (total reps), then sets don't really matter, just away to perform your workout.
For example if you wan't to go for 30 reps, then 2 sets of 15 would be good, as well as 3 sets of 10, 6 sets of 5, etc.
(vagrant @ Sep. 03 2006,10:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So let me see if I'm understanding the gist of this thread to make my workouts most effective.
during the 15s - do 2 sets
during the 10s - do 3 sets
during the 5s - do 4 or 5 sets
If you approach failure during a set, put down the bar - rest a short while, finish the set.
I wonder this because I started out doing 3x15, 3x10, then during the 10's was advised that I should ONLY be doing 2 sets during any part of this workout program.
During the 15's and 10's I made amazing unprecedented (for me) growth - actual visible changes during the first and second 2 weeks that others were noticing. After switching to 2 sets, changes slowed down. They haven't stopped, but have gotten slower.
Thanks for any help to clear this up.</div>
Just aim for a target number of TOTAL reps, and don't worry about sets. I don't bother with sets at all, since I use max-stim and clustering. In max-stim I do 20 reps with brief rest between reps, in clustering I do as many reps as I can reasonably perform, then rest and then keep going until I reach 20 reps. As long as you are doing the progressive loading, and maintaining work (total reps), then sets don't really matter, just away to perform your workout.
For example if you wan't to go for 30 reps, then 2 sets of 15 would be good, as well as 3 sets of 10, 6 sets of 5, etc.
Experience - trained regularily until I went to college. Then got fat and lazy.
Then 3 years ago at 34 I was 300lbs at 60+%BF and pretty much useless, looking at life in a wheelchair. Started training again regularily then. After 3 years I reached 185 at 8% or so. Then got sick, dropping to 173 again.
Now, halfway into the 5's I'm 195 lbs 10%BF, and in the best shape of my life. 3 sets in the 15's gave great results but I agree was probably too much. In the 10's It was probably good to do. For the 5's I need at least 3 sets, probably end up doing 5x5 at the end of the 5's though - not sure yet. Just going to keep reading, sorting through the things I read, and the answers I get to my questions - then see what is optimum for me.
Thanks for the advice guys - it is very helpful. I've got to say that today's 3x5 was a good experience - I did miscalculate some and just realized that 1/2 way through the 5's I set a new PR on a couple of exercises. I do olympic squats for my warmup then box squats to work my glutes/hams for my working sets. Warming up, I got 185x2 for the last "acclimation" set before I got to the real work.
My warmup is probably quite different from some of yours. I do a max ot style warmup, 50%x10, 60%x10, 75%x3, 80%x2, 90%x2 - anything different and I end up injured - every time I try to change it.
If HST has made me stronger before even getting to the heavy work - it's got to be a good thing.
scientific muscle - the last line of your reply looks very much like what my "HST newbie" understanding is evolving to...and kind of what my workouts are looking like. Today was only 3x5. for the next week it will probably stay 3x5, then I'm going to start adding sets. I'm hoping for at least 5x5 at the end of the 5's.
Then 3 years ago at 34 I was 300lbs at 60+%BF and pretty much useless, looking at life in a wheelchair. Started training again regularily then. After 3 years I reached 185 at 8% or so. Then got sick, dropping to 173 again.
Now, halfway into the 5's I'm 195 lbs 10%BF, and in the best shape of my life. 3 sets in the 15's gave great results but I agree was probably too much. In the 10's It was probably good to do. For the 5's I need at least 3 sets, probably end up doing 5x5 at the end of the 5's though - not sure yet. Just going to keep reading, sorting through the things I read, and the answers I get to my questions - then see what is optimum for me.
Thanks for the advice guys - it is very helpful. I've got to say that today's 3x5 was a good experience - I did miscalculate some and just realized that 1/2 way through the 5's I set a new PR on a couple of exercises. I do olympic squats for my warmup then box squats to work my glutes/hams for my working sets. Warming up, I got 185x2 for the last "acclimation" set before I got to the real work.
My warmup is probably quite different from some of yours. I do a max ot style warmup, 50%x10, 60%x10, 75%x3, 80%x2, 90%x2 - anything different and I end up injured - every time I try to change it.
If HST has made me stronger before even getting to the heavy work - it's got to be a good thing.
scientific muscle - the last line of your reply looks very much like what my "HST newbie" understanding is evolving to...and kind of what my workouts are looking like. Today was only 3x5. for the next week it will probably stay 3x5, then I'm going to start adding sets. I'm hoping for at least 5x5 at the end of the 5's.
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(Datoyminaytah @ Sep. 03 2006,15:25)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(faz @ Sep. 01 2006,08:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">8 reps to 5 reps wont allow much of an increment rise.
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I'm not sure what you mean by that. You put your X-rep max on the last workout of the two weeks and subtract your increment from that for each workout prior, back to the beginning of the two week period, and zig-zagging when you change rep ranges is OK. So what do you mean by "increment rise"?</div>
i meant your 8 rep max will be very close to your 5 rep max..10 rep and 5 rep will allow you to make bigger increments...which is better for hypertrophy smaller increments are better for strength.
(Datoyminaytah @ Sep. 03 2006,15:25)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(faz @ Sep. 01 2006,08:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">8 reps to 5 reps wont allow much of an increment rise.
I'm not sure what you mean by that. You put your X-rep max on the last workout of the two weeks and subtract your increment from that for each workout prior, back to the beginning of the two week period, and zig-zagging when you change rep ranges is OK. So what do you mean by "increment rise"?</div>
i meant your 8 rep max will be very close to your 5 rep max..10 rep and 5 rep will allow you to make bigger increments...which is better for hypertrophy smaller increments are better for strength.
Fausto
HST Expert
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(vagrant Sep. 03 2006 @ 23:05)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I do olympic squats for my warmup then box squats to work my glutes/hams for my working sets. Warming up, I got 185x2 for the last "acclimation" set before I got to the real work.</div>
You seem to have something wrong there, your glutes and hams are worked during olympic style squats!
By the way I am doing a high volume program at this time 30 reps all the way, let's see how far I can push the envelope!
(vagrant Sep. 03 2006 @ 23:05)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I do olympic squats for my warmup then box squats to work my glutes/hams for my working sets. Warming up, I got 185x2 for the last "acclimation" set before I got to the real work.</div>
You seem to have something wrong there, your glutes and hams are worked during olympic style squats!
By the way I am doing a high volume program at this time 30 reps all the way, let's see how far I can push the envelope!
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(Fausto @ Sep. 14 2006,08:31)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">You seem to have something wrong there, your glutes and hams are worked during olympic style squats!</div>
You are very correct, they are worked with olys too. However my body is so messed up that to effectively hit them, I have to go wider and use the box to use them even more. Something useful I picked up from a PL buddy. So far, it's working. Before I started the box squats, I actually looked deformed when comparing quads to hams and glutes.
The box squats take some of the focus away from the quads and use the glutes/hams more than the olys do.
They have strengthened them enough now that I can do olys - before, I always fell over backwards when I tried them.
I don't truly understand the mechanism of how it works though, something about using the box to take all the tension off the legs to release the "spring loaded tension" and start from the box from the beginning without the "spring assist" from built up muscle tension.
I'd like to be doing GHR's too, but my posterior is still too weak to do them with any added weight (or even body weight without an assist) so they just don't fit into HST for me right now. Later maybe...
(Fausto @ Sep. 14 2006,08:31)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">You seem to have something wrong there, your glutes and hams are worked during olympic style squats!</div>
You are very correct, they are worked with olys too. However my body is so messed up that to effectively hit them, I have to go wider and use the box to use them even more. Something useful I picked up from a PL buddy. So far, it's working. Before I started the box squats, I actually looked deformed when comparing quads to hams and glutes.
The box squats take some of the focus away from the quads and use the glutes/hams more than the olys do.
They have strengthened them enough now that I can do olys - before, I always fell over backwards when I tried them.
I don't truly understand the mechanism of how it works though, something about using the box to take all the tension off the legs to release the "spring loaded tension" and start from the box from the beginning without the "spring assist" from built up muscle tension.
I'd like to be doing GHR's too, but my posterior is still too weak to do them with any added weight (or even body weight without an assist) so they just don't fit into HST for me right now. Later maybe...
dziki_zolw
New Member
One option is "Building up the no of sets (eg 1 set in 15s, 2 in 10s and 3 in 5s)". You should keep constant number of reps per exercise or per group? When per exercise - in 5's you have to do about 20 sets or more in your workout (assuming that you do 2 exercises per each big group (chest, back, ....)). Doing so many sets with relatively big load in one workout is correct?
Surely its more important that you consider the number of times you hit each muscle group per week? I mean if you only do say 5 exercises per workout (1 per bodypart), doing 1x15, 2x10, 3x5 wouldn't be that great because at most its 60 reps per week ( on 10s) per bodypart.
It is to my knowledge from reading on BB from lots of sources that around 100 reps per muscle group per week is a more ideal number of reps for hypertrophy (volume wise anyway). Sooo whatever you do meeting the required number of reps is more important? Thats the way I've always looked at it anyway.
See this article for more on this: http://www.t-nation.com/readTop....=459292
I'll personally be doing 12 exercises (2 exercises per muscle group), with 1 to 2 sets . Therefore, on 15s for example, I will do Rows + Pullups for back - 1x15 for each, giving me 30 reps for the back, x3 times a week giving me a good solid 90 reps done on the back - a good amount to induce hypertrophy.
I think something that might have got forgotten along the way, is what you are conditioned to. So if you're used to doing 5x5 3 times a week, the chest for example would get 75 reps per week. Therefore, upon doing HST, aim for 75 reps as you are conditioned to, e.g. 25 reps per muscle group per workout.
Do you agree with my thinking here or am I talking crazy
I'm new to HST by the way but not BB. Would sticking to the same volume I am used to be advisable for my first cycle of HST, i.e. 12 exercises, 1 to 2 sets per exercise?
Looking forward to hearing from you guys!
It is to my knowledge from reading on BB from lots of sources that around 100 reps per muscle group per week is a more ideal number of reps for hypertrophy (volume wise anyway). Sooo whatever you do meeting the required number of reps is more important? Thats the way I've always looked at it anyway.
See this article for more on this: http://www.t-nation.com/readTop....=459292
I'll personally be doing 12 exercises (2 exercises per muscle group), with 1 to 2 sets . Therefore, on 15s for example, I will do Rows + Pullups for back - 1x15 for each, giving me 30 reps for the back, x3 times a week giving me a good solid 90 reps done on the back - a good amount to induce hypertrophy.
I think something that might have got forgotten along the way, is what you are conditioned to. So if you're used to doing 5x5 3 times a week, the chest for example would get 75 reps per week. Therefore, upon doing HST, aim for 75 reps as you are conditioned to, e.g. 25 reps per muscle group per workout.
Do you agree with my thinking here or am I talking crazy
I'm new to HST by the way but not BB. Would sticking to the same volume I am used to be advisable for my first cycle of HST, i.e. 12 exercises, 1 to 2 sets per exercise?
Looking forward to hearing from you guys!
One thing this is not taking into account is the relative loading. If you did 100 reps with your 15RM in a week that would be quite doable by most folks (not necessary but doable). If you did 100 reps with your 5RM load that would require 20 sets a week, or almost 7 a session! This is per exercise too. Unless you were on roids I think this would be far too much volume for most folks. Just imagine some poor guy like Steve Jones trying to do 100 reps with 700lbs in his deads! It would kill a large gorilla, so Steve would probably find it really hard too.
As Tot pointed out at the beginning of this thread, volume is a personal thing that you will have to expriment with. And, as it is a variable in your training, you will have to keep an eye on it and make changes over time. For most folks though, 45 reps a week per exercise seems like a good place to start.
As Tot pointed out at the beginning of this thread, volume is a personal thing that you will have to expriment with. And, as it is a variable in your training, you will have to keep an eye on it and make changes over time. For most folks though, 45 reps a week per exercise seems like a good place to start.
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(Lol @ Sep. 23 2006,09:37)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Just imagine some poor guy like Steve Jones trying to do 100 reps with 700lbs in his deads! It would kill a large gorilla, so Steve would probably find it really hard too.
For most folks though, 45 reps a week per exercise seems like a good place to start.</div>
Steve IS a large gorilla!
I just added mine (I'm in my 8th or 9th cycle I think) and I'm only doing 54 reps a week for most parts. 60 in the tens. I couldn't IMAGINE trying 100 for all my exersizes, although I've been doing 20 rep sets x 2 for squats, so that's 120 a week, but only for them. So you CAN specialize and survive.
(Lol @ Sep. 23 2006,09:37)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Just imagine some poor guy like Steve Jones trying to do 100 reps with 700lbs in his deads! It would kill a large gorilla, so Steve would probably find it really hard too.
For most folks though, 45 reps a week per exercise seems like a good place to start.</div>
Steve IS a large gorilla!
I just added mine (I'm in my 8th or 9th cycle I think) and I'm only doing 54 reps a week for most parts. 60 in the tens. I couldn't IMAGINE trying 100 for all my exersizes, although I've been doing 20 rep sets x 2 for squats, so that's 120 a week, but only for them. So you CAN specialize and survive.
Scientific Muscle: Your method you mentioned in post 86 caught my attention...that would kill me to try it, because of cheating. I believe I'd be too tempted to just break everything up into smaller sets when I got fatigued instead of pushing hard to get the sets in...and my workout would go to 2 hours!
I'm not big on regimentation, but for me, I need the system to work in order for my mind to get wrapped around my sets. I tried clustering with a system, just doing small sets to get my total reps in and I felt cheated. But that's not saying it shouldn't work for you; obviously you're making good headway.
I'm not big on regimentation, but for me, I need the system to work in order for my mind to get wrapped around my sets. I tried clustering with a system, just doing small sets to get my total reps in and I felt cheated. But that's not saying it shouldn't work for you; obviously you're making good headway.
One set per exercise. No mas.
scientific muscle
New Member
Joe.Muscle
Active Member
24 to 36 reps.
3 to 4 sets !
3 to 4 sets !