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(scientific muscle @ Sep. 03 2006,12:40)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
Just aim for a target number of TOTAL reps, and don't worry about sets. I don't bother with sets at all, since I use max-stim and clustering. In max-stim I do 20 reps with brief rest between reps, in clustering I do as many reps as I can reasonably perform, then rest and then keep going until I reach 20 reps. As long as you are doing the progressive loading, and maintaining work (total reps), then sets don't really matter, just away to perform your workout.
For example if you wan't to go for 30 reps, then 2 sets of 15 would be good, as well as 3 sets of 10, 6 sets of 5, etc.</div></div>
ok lets keep this concept in mind (the no set thing)...
lets say im in my 10s on first week, first workout... doing 10RM - 30lbs (5lbs per workout)
then I would have to push the bar and if I can reach 10 reps in 1st set then 2nd set thats cool... then on second week, last workout, its 10RM, so pushing the bar on 1st set and reach 10 reps barely.. now that is 100% sure I aint gonna make it to 10 reps this time.. lets say I hit 6, then you rest and make the final 4? (hopefully!) so I always reach 20 reps
is it what you mean by TOTAL reps? to be optimal, I would have to it the 20 reps constantly every workout in whatsoever way..? (I dont mean with cheating!
)
i'll probably be trying a push/pull routine, so I'll try to incorporate hst stuff into it...
(scientific muscle @ Sep. 03 2006,12:40)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
Just aim for a target number of TOTAL reps, and don't worry about sets. I don't bother with sets at all, since I use max-stim and clustering. In max-stim I do 20 reps with brief rest between reps, in clustering I do as many reps as I can reasonably perform, then rest and then keep going until I reach 20 reps. As long as you are doing the progressive loading, and maintaining work (total reps), then sets don't really matter, just away to perform your workout.
For example if you wan't to go for 30 reps, then 2 sets of 15 would be good, as well as 3 sets of 10, 6 sets of 5, etc.</div></div>
ok lets keep this concept in mind (the no set thing)...
lets say im in my 10s on first week, first workout... doing 10RM - 30lbs (5lbs per workout)
then I would have to push the bar and if I can reach 10 reps in 1st set then 2nd set thats cool... then on second week, last workout, its 10RM, so pushing the bar on 1st set and reach 10 reps barely.. now that is 100% sure I aint gonna make it to 10 reps this time.. lets say I hit 6, then you rest and make the final 4? (hopefully!) so I always reach 20 reps
is it what you mean by TOTAL reps? to be optimal, I would have to it the 20 reps constantly every workout in whatsoever way..? (I dont mean with cheating!
i'll probably be trying a push/pull routine, so I'll try to incorporate hst stuff into it...
scientific muscle
New Member
Yes, total number of reps is what matters. Not so much how many sets it took you to get there. (within reason)
then, curiously... why play with 10s and 5s..? why not simply keep adding weight.. i mean lets say im starting 12RM, for X lbs... then I can do 2 workout with it, then adding 5 lbs, then slowling reaching my 5RM over the weeks.. without zigzagging and still adding poudage... wouldnt that work in some way? (really brainstorming here!
)
thanks for your thoughts!!
thanks for your thoughts!!
SFH, I believe that a number of people on this board have experimented with variations that simply progress the weights linearly. I think that Quadancer has done this recently and I did a straight linear progession during my last cycle.
FYI, I simply started at 50% of my 5RM and progressed upward. I also linearly decreased the number of reps from 30 to 20 to the point where I hit my 5RM, then maintained it at 20 reps post-5. Just went for reps with clustering, as per Sci. If you do the math, by doubling the initial weight and cutting the reps by 1/3, you end up doing 1/3 more work by the time you hit your initial 5RM. However, I am pretty much a newbie at HST, so I am sure others can say a lot more on variants like this. I can say that I made some good gains during the cycle.
This makes some sense to me if your RMs are not that far apart. If they are, however, I think that the jumps in the "vanilla version" of HST may have some advantages. That is just a subjective sense on my part, however. After this cutting cycle, I plan to just do a 15-10-5 version again.
FYI, I simply started at 50% of my 5RM and progressed upward. I also linearly decreased the number of reps from 30 to 20 to the point where I hit my 5RM, then maintained it at 20 reps post-5. Just went for reps with clustering, as per Sci. If you do the math, by doubling the initial weight and cutting the reps by 1/3, you end up doing 1/3 more work by the time you hit your initial 5RM. However, I am pretty much a newbie at HST, so I am sure others can say a lot more on variants like this. I can say that I made some good gains during the cycle.
This makes some sense to me if your RMs are not that far apart. If they are, however, I think that the jumps in the "vanilla version" of HST may have some advantages. That is just a subjective sense on my part, however. After this cutting cycle, I plan to just do a 15-10-5 version again.
Bulldog
Active Member
I think the main purpose of the different rep ranges (other than the 15’s being good for the connective tissue and joints) was to keep you away from working too close to failure as the load increases. If you just target a certain number of reps then you could end up working way to close to failure as the weights get heavier if you aren’t careful.
Joe.Muscle
Active Member
oh hell just shoot for 30 reps.
Yeah, doing the linear progression I had to be careful to mark down any set that could not be completed (highlighted in yellow) and repeat that weight next workout, or even the next after, if it took that long to get it. So, in other words, I would cluster anything that I could not complete, and stay at that weight until I could do the full set, then I would add weight next workout and continue.
This would only happen for one or two exersizes, not all of them. When I finished a "rep range", I.E. 15's...and go to the tens, I'd just add my usual amount of weight increment and keep going, instead of backing down to the 80% of the 10rm. My theory was, and is, if you can do 15 reps at a given weight, you can dang sure do ten with another ten or twenty pounds.
With this method you just have to be sure not to hit failures very often. So if a rep slows, it's the last one of that set; don't try another.
This would only happen for one or two exersizes, not all of them. When I finished a "rep range", I.E. 15's...and go to the tens, I'd just add my usual amount of weight increment and keep going, instead of backing down to the 80% of the 10rm. My theory was, and is, if you can do 15 reps at a given weight, you can dang sure do ten with another ten or twenty pounds.
With this method you just have to be sure not to hit failures very often. So if a rep slows, it's the last one of that set; don't try another.
yet, the way I thought I was gonna do it is like the following...
starting at either 12RM or 10RM and keep a range of 20 reps... so if I do my 1st set at 10 RM and lets say I reach 10 reps barely *as I should since its my 10 RM*, then the second set, i'll probably do lets say 6-8 reps.. so I would have to take a quick rest and finish those 2-4 reps in a last 3rd set... isnt that we were talking about? only counting total reps??
thanks!
starting at either 12RM or 10RM and keep a range of 20 reps... so if I do my 1st set at 10 RM and lets say I reach 10 reps barely *as I should since its my 10 RM*, then the second set, i'll probably do lets say 6-8 reps.. so I would have to take a quick rest and finish those 2-4 reps in a last 3rd set... isnt that we were talking about? only counting total reps??
thanks!
Nononono and no. That is not HST. You see, first there is a deload. HST does not work without it, because it is designed to recuperate the body AND sort of destrengthen the muscle. (this is very temporary) If you read the HST articles fully, you'll see that this causes a condition in which the SUBMAX weights have an effect, along with the progression of growing muscle. If done with your idea, you would have to make some adjustments. Right off the top of my head I'd say you're hitting your failure every exersize, every workout, every set. That is failure training.
What I was doing allows the progression to be submax, yet bounce off the ceiling max here and there, so the body doesn't go into caustic CNS overload! I could still do 3 fullbody workouts a week (or every other day) and continue...your system would overload you very quickly unless you're on juice - so you'd have to spread your workouts further apart. HST is easier on the joints. (I healed joints doing HST) HST will not overtrain you.
Your idea isn't bad I don't think: it's just the numbers are too high. Say you're doing your 20 rep stuff at a submax. (and 20 is a LOT of reps man!) You go to 12, then hit 8, and you're done, but you haven't used your max poundages. You have not stressed the joints as hard, you're coming up in a progression from lower weights, and you have not worn yourself out with maxes for the rest of your workout. And that is the other benefit of HST...it all comes up together, but if you slam yourself silly with big weights early, the rest of your stuff will suffer and you'll not progress as much in them. Knowing that, some of us prioritize something we want up front, saving things we're better at, or bigger at, for last, because of that very reason. I want bigger legs most: I do squats first so I can keep the numbers high. Not to mention what a great warmup squats are, heheh.
Your post #102 had it right.
What I was doing allows the progression to be submax, yet bounce off the ceiling max here and there, so the body doesn't go into caustic CNS overload! I could still do 3 fullbody workouts a week (or every other day) and continue...your system would overload you very quickly unless you're on juice - so you'd have to spread your workouts further apart. HST is easier on the joints. (I healed joints doing HST) HST will not overtrain you.
Your idea isn't bad I don't think: it's just the numbers are too high. Say you're doing your 20 rep stuff at a submax. (and 20 is a LOT of reps man!) You go to 12, then hit 8, and you're done, but you haven't used your max poundages. You have not stressed the joints as hard, you're coming up in a progression from lower weights, and you have not worn yourself out with maxes for the rest of your workout. And that is the other benefit of HST...it all comes up together, but if you slam yourself silly with big weights early, the rest of your stuff will suffer and you'll not progress as much in them. Knowing that, some of us prioritize something we want up front, saving things we're better at, or bigger at, for last, because of that very reason. I want bigger legs most: I do squats first so I can keep the numbers high. Not to mention what a great warmup squats are, heheh.
Your post #102 had it right.
thanks for replying!
probably saved me time and LBM!
ok then I think I'll just keep the submax concept in my WO and simply not count the sets.. only making sure I reach 20 reps what so ever! (so logically I'll probably do like 3 sets of 10s in my last workout of 2nd week won't I !?)
very last thing, maybe you can answer again quad, should I zigzag those weights in these workouts? or maybe again it depends..
thanks!
very last thing, maybe you can answer again quad, should I zigzag those weights in these workouts? or maybe again it depends..
thanks!
you mean you havent zigzagged yet.. so you are using same weight as last workout when jumping from last 10s workout to first 5s workout ??
because what I'm experiencing is that between my 5s and my 10s, there is usually not more than 10lbs of diffrences (on big bodypart), probably caused by a lack of strenght... so by not zigzagging, im forced to re use the same weight for the first 2 workouts...
because what I'm experiencing is that between my 5s and my 10s, there is usually not more than 10lbs of diffrences (on big bodypart), probably caused by a lack of strenght... so by not zigzagging, im forced to re use the same weight for the first 2 workouts...
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(S_F_H @ Jan. 23 2007,21:39)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">so you are using same weight as last workout when jumping from last 10s workout to first 5s workout ??
because what I'm experiencing is that between my 5s and my 10s, there is usually not more than 10lbs of diffrences (on big bodypart), probably caused by a lack of strenght... so by not zigzagging, im forced to re use the same weight for the first 2 workouts...
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Here is the difference between us. My strengths shoot way up with the lower reps, so that when I go from 10's to 5's, I actually just continue to add weight, and that is submax for me.
In your case, you'll have to go by the 5rm and do it the standard way, backing off in increments and accepting the zigzag. I'm a freak, I guess.
(S_F_H @ Jan. 23 2007,21:39)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">so you are using same weight as last workout when jumping from last 10s workout to first 5s workout ??
because what I'm experiencing is that between my 5s and my 10s, there is usually not more than 10lbs of diffrences (on big bodypart), probably caused by a lack of strenght... so by not zigzagging, im forced to re use the same weight for the first 2 workouts...
Here is the difference between us. My strengths shoot way up with the lower reps, so that when I go from 10's to 5's, I actually just continue to add weight, and that is submax for me.
In your case, you'll have to go by the 5rm and do it the standard way, backing off in increments and accepting the zigzag. I'm a freak, I guess.
I 'm curious to hear how much time do you need to complete a workout with 12 exercises-20 total reps per exercise.
I have just started my 1rst cycle and I think when I reach weeks 5&6 I will be needing more than 1 hour to complete the workout(using 2sec for pos and 4sec for neg part of the repetitions).
Am I doing something wrong? The rest between sets is 30-60 secs.
Also at weeks 7 & 8 I will stay with 5RM.Should I begin doing again the workouts of weeks 5&6 or go the full two weeks with 5Rm on max weight on every workout?
I have just started my 1rst cycle and I think when I reach weeks 5&6 I will be needing more than 1 hour to complete the workout(using 2sec for pos and 4sec for neg part of the repetitions).
Am I doing something wrong? The rest between sets is 30-60 secs.
Also at weeks 7 & 8 I will stay with 5RM.Should I begin doing again the workouts of weeks 5&6 or go the full two weeks with 5Rm on max weight on every workout?
But then what about testosterone levels etc..
Should I fix the total number of the exercices(sets or repetitions) I use so that I don't exceed the limit of 60 min. on every workout -assuming right rythm and style in movements and rests- or the main thing here is to complete a prediceded volume of training regardless of time needed?
Should I fix the total number of the exercices(sets or repetitions) I use so that I don't exceed the limit of 60 min. on every workout -assuming right rythm and style in movements and rests- or the main thing here is to complete a prediceded volume of training regardless of time needed?
I'll say it this way: what works for ME is setting a workout schedule and sticking to it. If it takes me longer to finish, at least I've done the work.
Now, on the other hand, living around this website has changed my thinking a bit and gave me the courage to try less exersizes, using the big four as my base and focusing most of my efforts into them. My arms actually grew with one workout a week that way.
My next HST routine will incorporate some more iso's just for the sake of keeping in shape and working synergistic musculature. I just feel that PL movements alone won't be best for overall health, so I'll alternate.
Now, on the other hand, living around this website has changed my thinking a bit and gave me the courage to try less exersizes, using the big four as my base and focusing most of my efforts into them. My arms actually grew with one workout a week that way.
My next HST routine will incorporate some more iso's just for the sake of keeping in shape and working synergistic musculature. I just feel that PL movements alone won't be best for overall health, so I'll alternate.
ManosHandsOfFate
New Member
Ok, I'm coming off of Madcow's 5x5 (been on the linear program for over a year while cutting, and have managed to keep most of my strength while losing over 20 pounds), and at first I thought that HST was really different.
Now that I've read some replies, where you should be concerned with increasing the load while keeping the volume about constant...my question is, what's the difference between this and 5x5? Both programs you're keeping the volume constant, and both programs you're working on increasing your load on a weekly basis. Both programs also recommend that you stick to the basic, compound exercises.
Am I not understanding something correctly? Doesn't sound like there's much of a difference at all between the programs.
Now that I've read some replies, where you should be concerned with increasing the load while keeping the volume about constant...my question is, what's the difference between this and 5x5? Both programs you're keeping the volume constant, and both programs you're working on increasing your load on a weekly basis. Both programs also recommend that you stick to the basic, compound exercises.
Am I not understanding something correctly? Doesn't sound like there's much of a difference at all between the programs.