Not gaining muscle?  This is why.

Chris

Thanks "Boet", I am not vegetarian yet but like to make sure that everyone gets "served" in a nice thread like this.

I tend to think that there is a bit of a bias towards meat eating whenever the subject comes up, which is a bit sad for a forum like ours.

After all we are here to serve others applying HST knowledge to the best of their ability, nutrition however making up +/- 70 % of BB'ying success is important for all including our "herbivorous" friends.
biggrin.gif
 
<div>
(ryanc @ Jun. 05 2007,07:00)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The only reason I suggested to eat every 2-3 hours is just to get those excess calories your body requires to grow from all of the hard work you put in at the gym.</div>
Then you should have just said that from the beginning. Because it appeared that you were eluding to all the false information out there regarding frequent eating.
wow.gif
 
<div>
(ryanc @ Jun. 04 2007,15:22)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Mostly because I think people are too worried about getting &quot;fat&quot; to make any significant muscle gains.  When people are rejoicing about gaining 5-10 lbs of muscle in a year, there's definitely a problem.

As for the eating every 2.5-3 hours deal, it's common knowledge that there are a multitude of benefits to eating smaller meals more often rather than eating a few larger meals.  Do I really need to go into that?  Steady stream of aminos = positive nitrogen balance all day long = fuel for your muscles.  Take a look at the diet of any serious bodybuilder, he's eating at least that often.

I usually shoot for around 40-50g of protein per meal + carbs, used ever-increasing loads in my workout, kept up with off-day low intensity cardio, cut off carbs 4 hours before my bedtime and yeah, I've gained 25lbs since Nov 06. (185 to 210, 10% BF in 8 months).

But hey, do what you want.</div>
Effect of the pattern of food intake on human energy metabolism.

Verboeket-van de Venne WP, Westerterp KR, Kester AD.

Department of Human Biology, University of Limburg, Maastricht, The Netherlands.

The pattern of food intake can affect the regulation of body weight and lipogenesis. We studied the effect of meal frequency on human energy expenditure (EE) and its components. During 1 week ten male adults (age 25-61 years, body mass index 20.7-30.4 kg/m2) were fed to energy balance at two meals/d (gorging pattern) and during another week at seven meals/d (nibbling pattern). For the first 6 d of each week the food was provided at home, followed by a 36 h stay in a respiration chamber. O2 consumption and CO2 production (and hence EE) were calculated over 24 h. EE in free-living conditions was measured over the 2 weeks with doubly-labelled water (average daily metabolic rate, ADMR). The three major components of ADMR are basal metabolic rate (BMR), diet-induced thermogenesis (DIT) and EE for physical activity (ACT). There was no significant effect of meal frequency on 24 h EE or ADMR. Furthermore, BMR and ACT did not differ between the two patterns. DIT was significantly elevated in the gorging pattern, but this effect was neutralized by correction for the relevant time interval. With the method used for determination of DIT no significant effect of meal frequency on the contribution of DIT to ADMR could be demonstrated.


And another:

Br J Nutr. 1997 Apr;77 Suppl 1:S57-70. Links
Meal frequency and energy balance.

* Bellisle F,
* McDevitt R,
* Prentice AM.

INSERM U341, Hotel Dieu de Paris, France.

Several epidemiological studies have observed an inverse relationship between people's habitual frequency of eating and body weight, leading to the suggestion that a 'nibbling' meal pattern may help in the avoidance of obesity. A review of all pertinent studies shows that, although many fail to find any significant relationship, the relationship is consistently inverse in those that do observe a relationship. However, this finding is highly vulnerable to the probable confounding effects of post hoc changes in dietary patterns as a consequence of weight gain and to dietary under-reporting which undoubtedly invalidates some of the studies. We conclude that the epidemiological evidence is at best very weak, and almost certainly represents an artefact. A detailed review of the possible mechanistic explanations for a metabolic advantage of nibbling meal patterns failed to reveal significant benefits in respect of energy expenditure. Although some short-term studies suggest that the thermic effect of feeding is higher when an isoenergetic test load is divided into multiple small meals, other studies refute this, and most are neutral. More importantly, studies using whole-body calorimetry and doubly-labelled water to assess total 24 h energy expenditure find no difference between nibbling and gorging. Finally, with the exception of a single study, there is no evidence that weight loss on hypoenergetic regimens is altered by meal frequency. We conclude that any effects of meal pattern on the regulation of body weight are likely to be mediated through effects on the food intake side of the energy balance equation.
 
Thermogenesis in humans after varying meal time frequency]

[Article in German]

Wolfram G, Kirchgessner M, Muller HL, Hollomey S.

To a group of 8 healthy persons a slightly hypocaloric diet with protein (13% of energy), carbohydrates (46% of energy) and fat (41% of energy) was given as one meal or as five meals in a change-over trial. Each person was 2 weeks on each regimen. Under the conditions of slight undernutrition and neutral temperature the balances of nitrogen, carbon and energy were assessed in 7-day collection periods, and according to 48-hour measurements of gaseous exchange (carbon-nitrogen balance method) by the procedures of indirect calorimetry. Changes of body weight were statistically not significant. At isocaloric supply of metabolizable energy with exactly the same foods in different meal frequencies no differences were found in the retention of carbon and energy. Urinary nitrogen excretion was slightly greater with a single daily meal, indicating influences on protein metabolism. The protein-derived energy was compensated by a decrease in the fat oxidation. The heat production calculated by indirect calorimetry was not significantly different with either meal frequency. Water, sodium and potassium balances were not different. The plasma concentrations of cholesterol and uric acid were not influenced by meal frequency, glucose and triglycerides showed typical behaviour depending on the time interval to the last meal. The results demonstrate that the meal frequency did not influence the energy balance.


Meal frequency influences circulating hormone levels but not lipogenesis rates in humans.

Jones PJ, Namchuk GL, Pederson RA.

Division of Human Nutrition, University of British Columbia, Vancouver, Canada.

To determine whether human lipogenesis is influenced by the frequency of meal consumption, 12 subjects were divided into two groups and fed isocaloric nutritionally adequate liquid diets over 3 days, either as three larger diurnal (n = 6) or as six small, evenly spaced (n = 6) meals per day. On day 2 (08:00 h) of each diet period, 0.7 g deuterium (D) oxide/kg body water was administered and blood was collected every 4 hours over 48 hours for measurement of plasma insulin and glucose-dependent insulinotropic polypeptide (GIP) levels. At each time point, the incorporation of D into plasma triglyceride fatty acid (TG-FA) was also determined by isotope ratio mass spectrometry after TG-FA extraction and combustion/reduction. Insulin and GIP levels were elevated over daytime periods in subjects fed three versus six meals per day. Contribution of de novo synthesis to total TG-FA production was not significantly different for days 2 and 3 in subjects consuming three (6.56% +/- 1.32% and 6.64% +/- 2.08%, respectively) and six (7.67% +/- 2.29% and 7.88% +/- 1.46%, respectively) meals per day. Net TG-FA synthesis rates over days 2 and 3 were 1.47 +/- 0.33 and 1.55 +/- 0.53 g/d, respectively, for subjects fed three meals per day, and 1.64 +/- 0.47 and 1.69 +/- 0.30 g/d for subjects fed six meals per day. These findings suggest that consuming fewer but larger daily meals is not accompanied by increases in TG-FA synthesis, despite the observation of hormonal peaks.
 
<div>
(Slapshotz @ Jun. 05 2007,06:03)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(ryanc @ Jun. 04 2007,10:22)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">When people are rejoicing about gaining 5-10 lbs of muscle in a year, there's definitely a problem.</div>
Really?  I think 5 to 10 pounds a year is fantastic for a natural lifter.</div>
Slapshotz,

I am almost the same size as you and age, (you're in better shape than me thats for sure) you have some good goals for me to reach based on your maxes! I am far from them but working my way closer to them.

John
 
I AM a vegetarian, just starting on my first foray into HST and building from several months of a hypocaloric diet.

I can say that it's tricky to get large amounts of protein. Even with supplementation in the form of shakes and bars, I can only hit about 140g/day - not quite the 1g/lb of bodyweight that I read as a guideline, but it's the best I can do.

I'm still working out the kinks in the diet. I'm shooting for an average of 3k cal/day - my maintenance is somewhere around 2500. But I'm trying to spike during the 24 hours after workout and drop otherwise, as well as focus on carbs after workouts and proteins otherwise, so it's a bit of a rollercoaster keeping all these balls in the air.

My body is very confused, but I'm trying to keep the gains to 1 lb/week. And I'm keeping a careful eye on my waist measurement - if it starts climbing above where it started, I'm planning on dropping the numbers a bit. Fast muscle mass gain at the expense of getting fat is unacceptable to me after so many months of hard work losing weight - I'd rather just gain muscle slowly.
 
Faz, those are some very interesting studies regarding food intake. I myself am a big fan of the eating small meals every 3 hours diet, mostly because I have seen positive results on it myself. I do, however, believe there are some scientific principles that make it sound. Mainly the concept of glycemic index and insulin response.

For instance, I have been told that eating large amounts of food triggers a high insulin response, increasing cortisol and causing your body to store more fat (This makes sense to me, as I can see your body refilling its glycogen stores, using what it needs to build muscle, and the rest being stored the only way it can, in fat).

Later in the day, the body would need to reconvert that fat into glycogen to replenish energy used. However, if the activity level spiked, fat may not be metabolized quick enough, and protein breakdown may occur.

So, in essence, I cannot disagree that when it comes down to it, calories are what matters for weight. However, a steady insulin response would seem to be more beneficial for less fat storage.
 
If you haven't signed up for the Bodyrecomposition.com newsletters you should do so because there is always good info in the newsletters.

Once you sign up you will get an email with a link to the newsletter archives.  Go there and go down to the newsletter from April 20th, 2007.  There is an interesting research review that suggests that eating only one meal per day MAY reduce bodyfat and increase LBM as well and lower cortisol levels by almost 50%.
 
Ask a REAL bodybuilder if he got his physique by eating one meal per day.

No. He'll tell you that he got his physique by eating, eating again, and then eating some more until he didn't want to look at another piece of steak or a bowl of brown rice again in his life.

Maybe instead of arguing it with your studies done by 150 lb &quot;experts&quot;, you could go have a meal.
 
http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/HSreport/iss04/index.html
HSN ON PAPER
So what does 3,500 calories look like? Well, unless your eating junk food, it's a lot more than most people think. In fact, most people fail in their attempts to eat enough clean food as often as they fail on weight loss diets.
Below are some sample diets. THESE ARE ONLY SUGGESTIONS. Please don't email me if your 2 cups of rice has 92 grams of carbs instead of 90. These are only examples and none of the food portions were tested in a bomb-calorimeter or anything.
2,500 Calories
(160 lbs or 73 kg) 3,000 Calories
(190 lbs or 86kg) 3,500 Calories
(220 lbs or 100 kg)


MEAL 1 6 eggs (2 yolks)
1 cup oatmeal
1 piece fruit
Tbs Flax MEAL 1 9 eggs (2 yolks)
2 cups Cream of Wheat
1 piece fruit
1 Tbs Flax
MEAL 2 6 oz tuna in water
1 cup rice
1 cup cooked broccoli
1 gram Fish-oil MEAL 2 6oz tuna in water
1 cup rice
1 gram Fish-oil MEAL 2 6oz tuna in water
2 cup rice
2 grams Fish-oil
MEAL 3 4 oz turkey
1 med potato MEAL 3 5 oz chicken
1 med potato
1 cup corn MEAL 3 8 oz lean ground beef
2 cups pasta
MEAL 4 4 oz chicken
1 Banana MEAL 4 5 oz chicken
1 med potato MEAL 4 7 oz cod fish
1 large potato
1 orange
PRE-HST 1 scoop PRIMER 20g
maltodextrin
Or
PRIME+*
HS:CRE (5g) PRE-HST 1 scoop PRIMER 20g
maltodextrin
Or
PRIME+*
HS:CRE (5g) PRE-HST 1 scoop PRIMER 20g
maltodextrin
Or
PRIME+*
HS:CRE (5g)
POST-HST 1 scoop DRIVER
20g Dextrose
__ Tbs Flax
Or
DRIVE+* POST-HST 1 scoop DRIVER
20g Dextrose
20g Maltodextrin
1 Tbs Flax
Or
DRIVE+* POST-HST 1 scoop DRIVER
20g Dextrose
20g Maltodextrin
1 Tbs Flax
Or
DRIVE+*
MEAL 7 6 eggs (1 yolks)
1 cup Cream of Wheat w/raisins
1 gram Fish-oil MEAL 7 8 oz halibut
1 large potato
Salad
2g fish-oil MEAL 7 7oz chicken
1 cup corn
3 slices whole grain bread
Salad
2g fish-oil
TOTALS 160 g Protein
310 g Carbs
64 g Fat TOTALS 190 g Protein
380 g Carbs
75 g Fat TOTALS 220 g Protein
450 g Carbs
90 g Fat

* Prime+ and Drive+ are MRP versions of Primer and Driver and are currently in development.
IN SUMMARY
To increase whole body mass, you must ingest more than just maintanance calories. You can figure out the calories you need by one of two simple calculations.

http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hsn_artcls_proteinmyths.html
Myth #1: High protein intakes will not affect muscle protein synthesis.
Fact: Greater availability of amino acids means more protein synthesis within muscle cells.

hy·per·tro·phy
n
1.  biology
enlargement by cell growth: a growth in size of an organ through an increase in the size, rather than the number, of its cells  

bod·y·build·ing
n
practice of muscle-developing: the practice of developing the muscles of the body through weightlifting and diet
 
<div>
(ryanc @ Jun. 06 2007,17:13)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Ask a REAL bodybuilder if he got his physique by eating one meal per day.

No.  He'll tell you that he got his physique by eating, eating again, and then eating some more until he didn't want to look at another piece of steak or a bowl of brown rice again in his life.

Maybe instead of arguing it with your studies done by 150 lb &quot;experts&quot;, you could go have a meal.</div>
Most REAL bodybuilders do the same **** their heroes do without any rational thought behind their decisions. Doesnt make them right.
 
<div>
(ryanc @ Jun. 05 2007,23:13)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Ask a REAL bodybuilder if he got his physique by eating one meal per day.

No.  He'll tell you that he got his physique by eating, eating again, and then eating some more until he didn't want to look at another piece of steak or a bowl of brown rice again in his life.

Maybe instead of arguing it with your studies done by 150 lb &quot;experts&quot;, you could go have a meal.</div>
Are you serious? This is your argument?
Thats funny.
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<div>
(ryanc @ Jun. 05 2007,23:13)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Ask a REAL bodybuilder if he got his physique by eating one meal per day.</div>
Look one post down.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
bod·y·build·ing
n
practice of muscle-developing: the practice of developing the muscles of the body through weightlifting and diet
</div>

According to that definition, looks like most of the guys here are REAL bodybuilders.

But anyway, who cares how many meals a day someone is eating? When I am cutting, that can be as few as one or two in a day, when I am bulking it can be many meals with snacks in between.
Wow, if I could gain weight on a mere 3500 calories a day, damn... that would be awesome. Much better than shoveling down 4200+ a day in order to grow. And if all those calories were in the form of brown rice, I'd be in serious trouble. It's hard enough shoveling it all in without having to eat vile **** like that.



More to the point, since you had that &quot;150 lb experts&quot; comment, maybe you should man up and post your pics, otherwise your advice is obviously completely useless. How tall are you? How much do you weigh? Bodyfat percentage? How much can you deadlift? I mean, those 150 lb experts are obviously wrong, despite having scientific studies, because they are small and weak.
So unless you can deadlift more than 400 lbs, and you weigh at least 200 lbs, I cannot listen to anything you say, because by my standards, you would be small and weak.
 
This thread rules.

I appreciate the wisdom of the trenches approach, but we roll labcoat stylez here, son!
 
Eating 'clean' food like brown rice...for bulking....HAHAHAHHAHAHHA!!!  This guy is funny.

While it is true that brown rice could play a part in eating for muscle growth...there are many, far more efficient (and tasty) ways to get carbs.
 
Totentanz:
&quot;But anyway, who cares how many meals a day someone is eating?&quot;

Bryan Haycock cares.  And so did you, enough to argue about it anyway:

Totentanz:
&quot;Okay, maybe you need to keep up with recent studies. The whole &quot;you gotta eat every half hour or you will get fat/shrink your muscles/whatever&quot; has been debunked for a very, very, very, very long time now.
Overall calories in the day is what is important (assuming enough protein), not how many meals that is broken up into. Eat however many or however few meals you need to hit your goals.&quot;

Here's another.
http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/products.html
Daily Protein Intake Levels
Current recommendations for total protein intake for athletes is between 1.6-1.8 grams per kilogram body weight, depending on who you read, however, it is not uncommon for bodybuilders to consume in excess of 2 grams per kg (1 gram per pound) of body weight with no ill effects. It should be remembered that the body does not have the capacity to effectively store amino acids so protein should be eaten at least every 3-4 hours.

Totentanz:
&quot;Wow, if I could gain weight on a mere 3500 calories a day, damn... that would be awesome. Much better than shoveling down 4200+ a day in order to grow.&quot;

That's just an example.  Read the article--that's why I posted the link.
http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/HSreport/iss04/index.html

How tall are you?  5' 10&quot;
How much do you weigh?  210
Bodyfat percentage?  ~8%
How much can you deadlift?  625 lbs. without gloves, straps, wraps or even shoes.

Your turn.

hy·per·tro·phy
n
1.  biology
enlargement by cell growth: a growth in size of an organ through an increase in the size, rather than the number, of its cells  

Encarta World English Dictionary

http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/HSreport/iss02/index.html#art_1
&quot;My goal with HST and the HS:APS has always been muscle hypertrophy, period.&quot;  Bryan Haycock

This photo was taken 6 weeks after major hernia surgery (not caused by lifting) and it is actually me.
 
John, the argument is with Ryanc...but well done nevertheless.
biggrin.gif


We do labcoats here indeed...Mike...you right this thread rules...cool to see.
wink.gif
 
Fausto:
&quot;John, the argument is with Ryanc...but well done nevertheless.&quot;

Fausto, the &quot;argument&quot; is with anyone who chooses to post a comment here. Right now, that's me.
First of all, I don't know why everything on this forum has to be an argument in the first place.
Secondly, if so many people wish to be rude, insulting, condescending and pointlessly argumentative, I will serve them all, and I will do it with logic and factual excerpts from this site itself as often as possible.
Thirdly, thanks.
And finally, it has been my experience that people who sit around flaming others, especially in groups and in more than one screen name, are cowards who have nothing of any worth to contribute.  About like the fat bullies I used to smash in grade school.  You know, they can't improve themselves, so they choose simply to demean others in order to make themselves feel better about their obvious inferiority.
Is that what this forum is all about?  I see far too much of it.  It has also been my experience that anyone who takes this subject seriously is an above-the-average decent person.  It makes me wonder how many here even lift anything besides their fingers to type arrogant BS.
Stack's Gym.  A real gym.  Nothing fancy.  I used to go in there on off days just to freakin' relax around positive people.  Most could be asses if they so chose and get away with it.  They chose better. I sincerely hope that some of you will choose likewise.
 
<div>
(John Steel @ Jun. 06 2007,02:46)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Fausto:
&quot;John, the argument is with Ryanc...but well done nevertheless.&quot;

Now the &quot;argument&quot; is with me.
First of all, I don't know why everything on this forum has to be an argument in the first place.
Secondly, if so many people wish to be rude, insulting, condescending and pointlessly argumentative, I will serve them all, and I will do it with logic and factual excerpts from this site itself as often as possible.
Thirdly, thanks.
And finally, it has been my experience that people who sit around flaming others, especially in groups and in more than one screen name, are cowards who have nothing of any worth to contribute. About like the fat bullies I used to smash in grade school. You know, they can't improve themselves, so they choose simply to demean others in order to make themselves feel better about their obvious inferiority.
Is that what this forum is all about? I see far too much of it. It has also been my experience that anyone who takes this subject seriously is an above-the-average decent person. It makes me wonder how many here even lift anything besides their fingers to type arrogant BS.
Stack's Gym. A real gym. Nothing fancy. I used to go in there on off days just to freakin' relax around positive people. Most could be asses if they so chose and get away with it. They chose better.</div>
Not to point out the obvious, but the OP himself came in acting like a self-proclaimed expert and regurgitating bro logic.
 
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