opinions wanted

Discussion in 'Hypertrophy-Specific Training (HST)' started by Bryan Haycock, Apr 26, 2005.

  1. Bryan Haycock

    Bryan Haycock Administrator Staff Member

    I received this email from a fellow HSTer and was wondering what some of you thought about his assesment of his results. So, him know, is he actually unsuccesful or not?

    And, what would you suggest he do to see different results?

  2. A positive 10 lb change in total weight, a postive 13 lb change in lean mass in just under 2 years, a 3 point reduction in BF%, that's pretty dang good if you ask me.
    I would say that's sucessful and don't let the strength thing bother you, it's the lean mass build you want, remember it's HYPERTROPHY SPECIFIC and it's SPECIFICALLY HYPERTROPHY YOU GOT, and better yet it's lean hypertrophy to boot, great job  [​IMG]


    Sorry missed the second part of the question.
    The only change I would make is start working on reducing the BF more.
  3. BoSox

    BoSox New Member

    there's no doubt that losing several pounds of fat and gaining over 10 pounds of muscle is a very worthwhile and probably quite noticeable achievement.

    However, at your reported bodyfat level, you should really consider adjusting the diet and trying to cut. If you get the bodyfat down, you'll certainly not only look better, but improvements in your physique will be that much more obvious.
  4. vicious

    vicious New Member

    I think it's moderately successful, but my hunch is that he's not eating enough calories. (Then again, that's my answer to everything. ;) ) Because he's around 26% bodyfat, he's probably still wary of eating enough to gain.

    If I were him, I would commit to getting the BF down to 15% or so. They can do HST or not, but they have to add in a lot of cardio and just patiently work through cutting down. That way you can bulk with a clear goal. It's just easier when you're not juggling between the two in the same cycle; in my opinion, that's how people fail on this or any other program.

  5. NWlifter

    NWlifter Active Member

    One thing too, that kind of judgement can be hard. It would be cool if a person could go back in time a few times, and use several different programs or variations, keeping every other variable the same, then they could know for sure 'how good' the results are. I've had programs do great one time and a year later yeild zero gains. When I first got serious a million years ago, (ok 22 years ago ;) ) I was really underweight and gained about 12 lbs of muscle between the first of June and the end of August. I guess that was my "first time, once in a life time beginner" gains. Boy wish I could do that a few more times!

    10 lbs of lean mass is good though in general. Any lean mass gains are a good thing :)

  6. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    Assuming his gets his nutrition on target, it seems to me that he has inverted his routines...what he's doing for 15s would be better for 5s, and vice versa...?

    The 15s should be simpler than the 5s right? Less isolation moves, so by default it's made up mainly of compounds. Where as in the 5s, you can really start to target specific muscle groups, use some extra techniques like loaded stretches, partial reps/pulses etc.

    6kgs of LBM over 2yrs ins't too bad. And throw in a slight decrease in bf %, I'm guessing that there is at least SOME sort of visual change.
  7. xahrx

    xahrx New Member

    Seems to me like he got good results, and what's more he stuck to it over time. My body fat % isn't too far under his, so I know what it's like to not feel your making too much a difference. Bottom line is though, it takes a lot of time and effort to mess your body up to that point, and it's going to take time and effort to correct it, if you want it corrected in a lasting way.

    In my experience, what is probably hindering his gains most is not eating right or enough, as Vicious said. A reccomendation that worked for me is this: Find your maintainance calories for your total body weight and designate it X, then get a bf% measurement and take your lean mass weight, multiply it by 1.06 to 1.1, something that would give you a target weight including a reasonable BF% and get the maintainance calories for that target, designate it Y, and target your calories somwhere in between those X and Y numbers. Get a lot of protein in, err on the side of going to close to X rather than dropping to far to Y. Your technically eating below maintainance so you should gradually lose weight. But your eating what should be enough to maintain lean body mass, and perhaps add some too.

    Eating right and healthy is the most important thing. My diet is still haphazard a lot of the time, and those are the times that gains in muscle and losses of fat are apparent.
  8. I've been on HST long enough to complete 2 full cycles (this week).

    I've gained appx 23+ lbs lean muscle and BF% has gone down 4.8% since December 18, 2004 measured three weeks ago. I haven't measured BF lately.

    I'm saying the guy has not been very successful for being on a great training program like HST.

    If I were sent this email and I wanted to advise him correctly I'd ask more questions. However, since we're trying to fugure this one out...as it is.

    Several things I think about.

    1) Too much of the wrong things in the diet. I'd almost be willing to bet he's taking too many carbs, because of his BF% change is small.  IMO taking carbs in almost equal quantity as protein on workout days is fine, but less than 60 grams of total daily carbs on off workouts.

    2) I'd really want to know if it's doing all he can with his weight choices. I see guys working out, but they never break a sweat or push to limits.

    3) I don't see any ab work in any of his exercises.

    4) He mentioned creatine, but no other supps. I think it's important to know just what his protein intake in grams per meal and daily total on workout days and off days.  I'm not sure he really needs creatine.
    A better program for this guy-->

    He would have done better with a pair of 10 lb DB and a home exercise program of one hour every other day.  If he'd done cardio 45 minutes every other day he'd probably be at about +/-18% BF by now. I say this because he didn't mention muscular development.  He seems to be more pre-occupied with his weight. He doesn't mention anything about muscular development. If the BF journal is his primary meter for development, I'd say he was on a diet  [​IMG]

    Seriously, I can read his BF journal and see lean mass development, but for HST training over that long a period it's not much improvement.

    To wrap it up...The poster should get more aggressive about his training, learn more, set goals and push to achieve them.
    After the length of time he's been training that kind of posting about..."am I successful" is very sad.  :confused:
  9. I tend to agree with most folks here: adding 13 pounds of lean mass and dropping bodyfat levels by 3 percent is good progress by any yardstick. He did it relatively slowly, but in so doing, chances are he'll at least maintain what he's accomplished.

    Having said that, I can see how the guy would feel as though he hasn't made good progress on HST--emphasis on HST. I mean, look at the crazy gains people make with this program. Domineaux here added almost twice that lean mass and lost a greater percentage of bodyfat in just four months! And his results aren't the exception to the rule.

    So, strictly speaking, I think the guy made decent gains. Relatively speaking, his gains appear to be more modest. But they are solid nonetheless--by no means poor. So many of the people I've been seeing in my gym for more than five years look exactly the same now as they did in 2000.
  10. I'm gonna put the axe in the stump here.

    With 26.4 BF% my doctor would say he is overweight, maybe even seriously.(pre-diabetic)

    I can't imagine anyone going 12 cycles on this great training program with those results.
  11. vicious

    vicious New Member

    That being said, HST isn't a miracle program (actually it is but hey I'm a homer ;) ), and everybody's genetics are different.  Sometimes, the best way really is slow and low.  Lose a few lbs of fat a month, gain a lbs LBM.   In a few years, you're 20lbs heavier but 12-20% BF.  You know, like smoking a rack of baby back ribs.  Let the fat render a bit over time and what you have is a juicy piece of prime beef.  ;)

    Ideally, he'd be around 15% BF, his blood profile would be healthy, and his family/career would be flexible enough that he can eat 5-6x-a-week, train at least 3x-a-week and sleep 8 hours a night. That's hard to do.

    But if he were, then it's fairly easy to structure a diet around his current routine and probably get him 15-20lbs heavier LBM in one year. That is, if he's lean enough to really start bulking. I have no doubt that's possible.

  12. NWlifter

    NWlifter Active Member

    Not to take this off subject, but whoa, 23 lbs? Are you natural? That is awesome!
  13. vicious

    vicious New Member

    Yeah, I'm kinda scratching my head on that one. I think his routine is 3x-a-week, but with cardio on his off days. In itself, not that unique, but I imagine he also bulked while doing that. Theoretically, he might have gotten a really, really, really, really great nutrient partioning effect from that, which led to the massive LBM changes.

  14. I just got off the scales...196 lbs 5'10" and I'm getting very muscular, even getting a six pack that is very visible.

    It probably makes a difference, but I had previously dieted and lost 40 lbs on Atkins diet. It took almost a year to lose it, because I disciplined myself to just keep incrementally losing  weight. I didn't rush it, actually I liked eating all that steak, fish, cheese, whipped cream, etc.
    I didn't work out before or during Atkins diet. I had not worked out in many many years. I noticed a great deal of lean muscle loss during the Atkins diet.
    I was so weak I couldn't do 3 regular pushups or 1 squat with my bodyweight only.  I was friggin' drying up.  I'm serious I was so darned weak all I wanted to do was take a nap.  Literally I could fall asleep anywhere and did frequently.

    I went to a GNC store and asked this clerk about some kind of supplement to help me build my strength up.  He didn't know much, but he did suggest whey protein might help.

    I bought a 2 pounder and took a scoop a day. I had an old bar from a barbell set, along with a simple bench and started doing some exercises.  I started to gain, just weight,  and I did get a little more energized. I gained appx 20+ lbs because I was so depleted from the dieting.  
    In December I joined a gym and started slowly.  I went all over the internet reviewing and studying training systems. When I read all the HST articles I realized this was going to be the best system for me.  I just didn't have the energy and strength for the other systems to even get started.
    When I started pumping the iron on HST...I just exploded.  My body has been in this euphoric state ever since.

    You might say the weight losses did create a fertile field for improvement, but you need to balance that with the fact of having no physical ability to even get through the day after losing all that weight.

    In all fairness I have moved up and down the scales weight wise, and my actual weight gain could be considered a little differently than someone who went from fat to trim, but the important issue is....I've got the same waist size 33" that I had at 173 lbs. My chest is now at 48" my arms at 16" and I've not measured my legs, but my calves are exploding as I write.

    I apologize for not taking more time to explain.

    This might be helpful to someone. I choke down the OnWhey shakes w/2 scoops several times each day. I drink one pre and post workout. I eat lots of tuna in water, cottage cheese with yogurt, egg whites in grits, and I gorge down the carbs on weight workout days. I eat one gram of protein for every pound I weigh everyday at a minimum.
  15. NWlifter

    NWlifter Active Member

    Man, so no drugs just some good solid gains. That's really good. One thing also that could be a factor, you said you lost a lot of weight. I read that when people gain weight, even though it's 'mostly' adipose, some is muscle. They say even those sumo guys have quite a bit of meat under there. Maybe you had some 'regaining' going on like the old Colorado experiment?
    No matter what, that is great! Obviously HST stimulated the growth! Cheers!
  16. vicious

    vicious New Member

    If he was coming off the Atkins diet, he probably regained 10-15lbs of that in water weight. And of course, there's a bit of muscle memory coming from regaining from a depleted, yucky state.

    But, however you look at it, Domineaux did bloody right for himself. Good job mate. :)
  17. NWlifter

    NWlifter Active Member

    Oh... low carbs loss..... of water, good thinking!
    I agree, he did great!
  18. I amended the post above a bit. I got in a hurry to get a 15" cheese pizza in the oven. That's gonna be my carb delight for the day.

    Dire Straits..."That's the way you do it" ---on HST

  19. Fausto

    Fausto HST Expert

    My humblest opinion if there is such a word [​IMG]

    He has gained BM which is good, lost some body fat, not enough? Yah, but then consider looking at nutrition and doing some tweeking there!

    I agree HST is not a "miracle - snake oil" type of program, so one has to look at various angles.

    Obviously here, BF is the main issue, so I'd say, increase protein, pay attention to carb levels per meal or per day, and last but not least start cardio on off days in a serious manner.

    We have some excellent posts right here on nutrition and getting rid of stubborn fat (Steve Mcdermot) if I can remember correctly.

    That is basically it, Bryan, what else can I add, others who are a lot more on the expert level than I am are saying basically the same, with more emphasis.
  20. Old and Grey

    Old and Grey Super Moderator Staff Member

    This may be bucking the majority here but I agree with the writer and think those gains and stats are not good at all. I presume we are talking about a male here. If so, 26% bf is awful. The workout routine being used is not bad though I would make some changes but I feel the real problem has to be with the diet. More protein and good fats and less carbs and bad fats is needed. Also, the fact that no strength was gained is troubling. It sounds like the intensity at the end of each rep range might be too low. No pain, no gain still has some wisdom to it at certain times. Without knowing a lot more about this individual, it is hard to make specific recommendations.

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