Stick to basics?

M

martin85

New Member
I'm soon to be starting my first cycle of HST and was wondering if I should stick w/ the main lifts only like bench, squats, deadlifts, rows, etc and maybe little isolation exercises. I am 5'7", 165 lbs, w/ about 16%bf. I don't think I'm big enough yet to benefit. I hope to add 20 lbs or so through my first HST cycle. My goal is to be 175 w/ below 10% bf by the start of Summer after a little cutting also. So this is what my workout will be looking like, please let me know if it looks good:

Squat
Bench
Pendlay row
Standing military press
Machine crunches

On Wednesday I will sub in deadlifts for squats, dips for bench, and chins for pendlay rows. I might also add barbell curls and skullcrushers on Monday, back extensions Wednesdays and calf raises Friday.

I am also doing the increasing sets for each 2 week block (1x15 first, 2x10 second, and 3x5 third).
 
I think it will be a tall order to attain your goal. Here's why:

Starting at 165 lbs bw @ 16% bf means 26.4 lbs fat and 138.6 lbs lean mass.
Ending at 175 lbs bw @ 10% bf means 17.5 lbs fat and 157.5 lbs lean mass.

So for your 10lb bw change that means 18.9lbs lean tissue added and 8.9lbs fat lost.

Before next summer you have time for about three cycles (around 27 weeks including some SD time).

Scenario 1
Say you bulk for two cycles and cut for one. During the bulk you add 16lbs, half of which may be fat. That would leave you at around 19% bf @ 181lbs (or 34.4lbs of fat and 146.6lbs lean mass). You still need to add 10lbs of lean mass to get to your target - and that's before cutting!

Scenario 2
Do a bulk for 3 cycles and gain 8lbs a cycle. That will give you gains of around 12lbs lean and 12lbs fat. Bodyweight would then be around 189lbs at 150.6lbs lean mass and 38.4lbs fat, or 25.5% bf! Eek!

Scenario 3
Take the first cycle to cut around 10lbs which will take you to approx. 155lbs bw @ ~10% bf. (NB. It may be possible for you to add some lean mass whilst doing this if you are relatively unconditioned to training but it is not guaranteed and you may in fact drop a little lean mass with the fat - See the Doing away with bulking and cutting thread). Then start to bulk slowly for the next two cycles which will help to minimise fat gain along the way. This way you may add several lbs of lean mass by summer along with only a few lbs of fat. At least you will be able to keep your body-fat level under control if this is what you desire.

Any of these three options will take some decent diet planning, Scenario 3 being the trickiest to get right.

Your lifting plan looks good.

If you are relatively new to lifting, rather than a seasoned lifter, you might get better results doing all the exercises each session rather than splitting them into A & B w/os. If you find squats & deads too taxing back-to-back, put squats at the start and deads at the end of your w/o (or alternate just these two exercises).

Until your strength levels are up to the point where you can squat at least your bw and dead 1.5 x bw for 5s you will be able to do more exercises each session without overly taxing your body on a 3 x weekly schedule.

Hope that helps.
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Lol

I couldn't have put it better
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martin85

9 pounds per cycle maybe 10 may be possible, 20 pounds? I think not.
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Thanks for the advice Lol. So if I go w/ scenario 1, and end up at 181 lbs w/ 19% bf after 2 cycles, how much could I expect to weigh after cutting down to 10% bf? And how long would the cutting need to last? For the first 2 cycles, I plan to clean bulk to minimize fat gain. Also, my 5 rep maxes are:
Bench- 210
Squat (ATG)- 230
Deadlift- 260
Military press- 120
Bent row- 115

So should I still be doing all lifts every workout?
 
martin: those are some pretty decent poundages to be lifting at your present bw, particularly your bench. They place you at around intermediate lifting standards which means that you will probably do just fine alternating between A & B w/os and adding in an iso here and there if you like.

If you went with scenario 1 you would end up with around 147lbs lean mass which would mean that to get to 10% bf you would need to drop from 181lbs down to around 163lbs or about 18lbs of fat loss. Of course, during the cut you will likely lose some lean mass too but, hopefully, if you keep lifting heavy and don't lose more than about 1lb a week this will be minimal.

So, it could take a further four months after your bulk to achieve your 10% bf if you went this route.
 
Martin

Congrats on the poundages, good lifting, very similar to mine b.t.w.!

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So should I still be doing all lifts every workout? </div>

Well, no...specially because of the deads...but that is the only one you need alternate, if I were you I'd throw in Chinups alternated with Pendlay rows and dips alternated with bench.


So:

A = Squat/ Bench/ Military press/ Bent row

B = Dips/ Deadlift/ Push press/ Chinups

It is very simplistic but highly effective, you may go for 4 or 5 sets during 5's, it rocks.

Time? Should take you 30 - 40 minutes with warmup.
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Sweet, thanks for all the advice guys. I've gone from about 132 lbs to 165 lbs in a year. But I gained a lot of fat which I'm not too happy about. The first half of the year, I just went in the gym and did random things, but I started reading up on exercise programs. Then for the last 6 months I've been doing the 5x5 program and that's where I really made a lot of strength gains. But lately, I've been hitting the wall, that's why I decided to give HST a try after hearing a lot of good things about it. I wish I still had my progress, pics over the last year, but I had to format my computer recently. I thought I copied them onto my ipod but guess not. But I will certainly have progress pics while doing HST.

Also, would it be more beneficial to do stiff legged deadlifts as opposed to standard?
 
Stiff legged deads are excellent fro the hammies, but if you're doing ATG squats you should be getting enough stimulation on your hammies anyway!
 
A = Squat/ Bench/ Military press/ Bent row

B = Dips/ Deadlift/ Push press/ Chinups

It is very simplistic but highly effective, you may go for 4 or 5 sets during 5's, it rocks

Tommy like
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Either that or do negs. Negatives are easy with chins or pullups: just sort of jump up and let yourself down slowly. I think most of us started with pulldowns. We also used to use a training partner to hold one foot, helping us lift ourselves, but I quit that, 'cause it looked kinda gay to me.
Long time ago.
 
<div>
(quadancer @ Dec. 14 2006,17:55)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Either that or do negs. Negatives are easy with chins or pullups: just sort of jump up and let yourself down slowly. I think most of us started with pulldowns. We also used to use a training partner to hold one foot, helping us lift ourselves, but I quit that, 'cause it looked kinda gay to me.
Long time ago.</div>
lol, yea i can see why that would look kind of awkward. i saw one of the football players at my school use a stability ball to help with his chins, like he'd kinda roll on it from his knees to the front of his ankles when pulling himself up. i dunno, i might just start w/ pulldowns depending on how much i'm able to do when i go into the gym next week to check my numbers.
 
<div>
(Cova @ Dec. 14 2006,18:08)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">You guys think it would be beneficial to SD before he starts his workouts?

Goodluck Martin!
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Thanks, and what's SD btw?
 
<div>
(martin85 @ Dec. 14 2006,18:50)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(quadancer @ Dec. 14 2006,17:55)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Either that or do negs. Negatives are easy with chins or pullups: just sort of jump up and let yourself down slowly. I think most of us started with pulldowns. We also used to use a training partner to hold one foot, helping us lift ourselves, but I quit that, 'cause it looked kinda gay to me.
Long time ago.</div>
lol, yea i can see why that would look kind of awkward.  i saw one of the football players at my school use a stability ball to help with his chins, like he'd kinda roll on it from his knees to the front of his ankles when pulling himself up.  i dunno, i might just start w/ pulldowns depending on how much i'm able to do when i go into the gym next week to check my numbers.</div>
You can also do rack chins. At a Smith machine or squat rack, set the bar height so when you hang from it, your heels are resting on the floor out in front of you. That way when you pull up, you're not lifting your entire body weight. The lower you set the bar, the less of your weight you'll be lifting. As you get stronger, move the bar higher and higher until you're entirely off the ground and lifting your entire weight.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Thanks, and what's SD btw? </div>

Martin, martin...Tsss, Tsss, Tsss,
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SD = strategic deconditioning, one of the most important aspects of the HST Phylosophy.

I can see you haven't read the actual program itself and I suggest you do. Here's the explanation.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Strategic Deconditioning

While utilizing Hypertrophy-Specific Training (HST) techniques, our goal is to present the muscle with a growth promoting stimulus at the moment the muscle is physically susceptible to microtrauma. When is this exactly?

Well, it is, or was, whenever you first began weight training. It may also have been after you took a long vacation or simply took a break from training for one reason or another.

The point is, it is whenever the muscle has never been conditioned or when it has been allowed to decondition itself during an extended lay off.

The optimum time for training is when the deconditioned muscle has retained the additional myonuclei from previous training, but has lost enough of the protective connective tissue to allow growth promoting microtrauma.

HST takes into account this need to apply the growth stimulus when the muscle is most receptive. We call this Strategic Deconditioning.

Training after Strategic Deconditioning results in much more rapid gains in size and strength. This phenomena lead to the idea of &quot;muscle memory&quot;. When done properly not only do you quickly regain previously attained size and strength but you will put on new muscle and reach new levels of strength beyond your previous plateau.

So what is &quot;Strategic Deconditioning&quot;?

What does strategic Deconditioning mean and how do we apply it to continue growing?

Strategic deconditioning is simply a period of time free from training which is long enough to allow a reversal of some of the acute adaptations in muscle tissue, referring specifically to the repeated bout effect.

This usually requires 9 - 12 days straight with no training. The term strategic is used because this 9 - 12 day period is not chosen at random or whenever you begin to feel &quot;burned out&quot; or even simply lose interest. It is done every 6-8 weeks depending on whether you finish your cycle with 5 rep work or with eccentric work respectively.

Don't confuse deconditioning with recuperation. Recuperation denotes a restoration or re-building of the tissue. This is what your average personal trainer commonly advocates. He or she will tell you, &quot;Give the muscle plenty of time to rest before you train it again.&quot; This pattern of training will not only produce slower gains but you will inevitably plateau more quickly, albeit a fully recuperated plateau.

Your muscles will be fully recuperated within the first 7 days of the deconditioning period. At 7 days you will also still retain most of the repeated bout effects. Additional down time is required to allow the muscle to lower it's defenses. 9-12 days is just long enough to allow deconditioning, but to prevent undue muscle atrophy.

Equally important as the deconditioning period is what you do during the 6-8 weeks of training. Standard practice is to split up your body into muscle groups and train each one separately or in groups on different days. This usually means training a given muscle once or maybe twice per week.

If you were to train this way during the 6-8 weeks before your Strategic Deconditioning period you would be sorely disappointed in the result. This would only provide three workouts every 5 weeks, certainly insufficient to produce a growth promoting environment. Instead of traditional training practices you must use HST techniques to create a consistent environment that the muscle must adapt to by growing larger and stronger.

During the 6-8 weeks of training you will do full body workouts utilizing only 1-2 compound exercises per muscle group as outlined in HST. For example, for legs you will do either squats (or leg press) and leg curls. For chest you will do incline bench and weighted dips. For back do wide grip bent over rows and close grip weighted chins or pull downs. Pick one or two shoulder exercises that hit your weakest area and one exercise for biceps and one for triceps.

You may alternate exercises for each muscle group from workout to workout. By alternating exercises from workout to workout you can utilize more exercises over the course of the week. This isn't necessary f r growth, but many people chose to do this with great success.

Each and every workout you should increase the weight you use for each exercise. This means 5-10 pound increments for upper body and 10-20 pound increments for legs. This obviously requires that during the first week you are not using your previous cycle's max loads. If the Strategic Deconditioning is done properly, you won't need to.

To choose a starting weight for your exercises, go backwards from the weights you finished with at the end of the previous cycle. Allow for 6 increases in weight with the last increase being slightly above the previous cycles finishing weight. Once again, more details can be had by reading the original publication of HST.

It is this practice of frequent loading followed by Strategic Deconditioning that allows a person to reuse submaximal poundages to elicit new muscle growth. </div>
 
<div>
(Lol @ Dec. 12 2006,13:01)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">martin: those are some pretty decent poundages to be lifting at your present bw, particularly your bench. They place you at around intermediate lifting standards which means that you will probably do just fine alternating between A &amp; B w/os and adding in an iso here and there if you like.

If you went with scenario 1 you would end up with around 147lbs lean mass which would mean that to get to 10% bf you would need to drop from 181lbs down to around 163lbs or about 18lbs of fat loss. Of course, during the cut you will likely lose some lean mass too but, hopefully, if you keep lifting heavy and don't lose more than about 1lb a week this will be minimal.

So, it could take a further four months after your bulk to achieve your 10% bf if you went this route.</div>
So this means that I can expect to lose about 2% bf after my 1st 2 bulking cycles, and be at my desired bf level (10%) at the end of September? What if I keep a really strict diet, good cardio, and add a fat burner? Would that make the fat loss more rapid?
 
No, you'll be adding fat and lean mass while bulking (see my first post on this thread). With Scenario 1[/B, after two bulking cycles you might be up to around 19% bf (from 16% right now). Then you would need to cut around a lb a week and with 18lbs of fat to lose that could take around four months. Sure you can do it faster but you may lose more lean mass along the way if you go that route.

You will need to keep to a really strict diet anyway but if you weren't losing fast enough (ie. a lb a week) then adding in some extra cardio could be better than dropping calories down further. Ultimately, your weight loss will be down to a simple case of calories consumed being lower than calories used.

At the end of the day only you will be able to guage your progress and what works best for you. The first time you do this there will be quite a learning curve but you will be much more knowledgeable at the end of the process.

Editite to add: I know jack squat about fat burners but others here do so maybe someone will chime in with some info? Or, do a search as it's bound to have been discussed a lot.
 
what's easier, push press or standing military? because i already know my 5 RM for standing military, and would like an idea of what my push press would be which i'll be going into the gym tomorrow to set.
 
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