Vinegar for Better Glycogen Repletion?

ok... lemme get this straight... what are you supposed to do? vinegar AND bicarbonate? just pre/post-WO or at every meal possible? i still gotta say, this is the weirdest thing ever - i don't care what the studies say...
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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I've started just drinking the 4cc/100 gm carbs of apple cider vinegar (tastes a lot better than regular white vinegar) post workout, and with breakfast.
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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]So this makes it harder for the carbs to be burned as fuel during glycolysis, and instead they are shunted into glycogen storage.
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Is that really what you want post workout? Surely you want the glucose available to the muscle cell for fuel at this time.
Am i missing something?
 
ok... vinegar post training, and some form of bicarbonate at night? is that the most basic way of doing this? i'm currently CKD-ing it, should i only do this on carb-up days?
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (stevie @ Mar. 07 2003,12:44)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]So this makes it harder for the carbs to be burned as fuel during glycolysis, and instead they are shunted into glycogen storage.
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Is that really what you want post workout? Surely you want the glucose available to the muscle cell for fuel at this time.
Am i missing something?
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DURING the workout, you want the glucose available for fuel.

POST workout, your main concern is getting enough of the stuff in there to re-load while the muscle is taking it up the fastest, which happens for a few hours after workout.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Blade @ Mar. 06 2003,10:07)]I'm wondering if the buffering might be counterproductive during 15s, when we are actually focusing on lactic acid production?
Bryan, do you have any input on this?
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Interesting stuff. . . I remember taking a potassium/magnesium aspartate supplement like, 12 years ago, and finding a significant boost in performance, especially for longer workouts, like biking endurance. But I never even remotely suspected that there was a buffering connection and an acidity issue. . .

I suspect that this will play out to be a local vs. systemic thing. The burns you want in the 15's are a local lactic acid flush in the target muscles/tendons. The acidity the passes into the rest of your system you probably want to counter as quickly as possible. (It's probably part of what makes you feel poorly immediately after your workout.) That could enhance recovery and, importantly, enhance your ability to get good performance in the last exercise in your 15's workout.

I'm looking forward to learning more.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Blade @ Mar. 06 2003,2:59)]The mechanism whereby the acetic acid increases glycogen storage in muscle is by retarding glycolysis. It seems the acetate (vinegar is acetic acid) is converted to citrate in the Krebs cycle, and the buildup of citrate inhibits a key enzyme (phosphofructokinase) responsible for glycolysis (glucose burning).
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Has anyone investigated other sources of acetate for this effect? Here we are, considering buffering agents before workouts to minimize acidity, and then taking an acid afterwards. . .

But we're not really looking for the acidity. . .

Is it something specific to acetic acid that leads to proper uptake or conversion to citrate, or can we look to another source for acetate or citrate?
 
Alright, I already have the vinegar and the potassium/sodium citrate. The magnesium and calcium citrates are not being easy to find, they can get them at the pharmacy but they'll have to order one kilo of each and as it's an import so it will turn out a bit expensive. How important is it to use these specific forms of each mineral? Will carbonate also do? :confused:
 
I'm not quite sure if I understand the use of buffering agents. They are taken to raise your PH levels which is supposed to help control your bodies lactate acid and some how increase performance? Which brings me to my second question how do these buffering agents control lactate acid?

As for the vinegar what will it do to your PH level, I'm assuming it will lower it? Anyways this is very interesting and it looks like i have allot more reading to do.


Steve
 
Does anyone know the means through which lipoic acid exerts its glucose disposal effect? I quickly brosed through pubmed for an answer and what i came up with was ALA inhibits the G-6-P enzyme, which is the opposite of what Doctor Albers says about vinegar yet both substances enhance glycogen replenishment. I am aweful confused here.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Jon Stark @ Aug. 12 2002,5:18)]Rats were sacrificed by decapitation before, immediately after exercise and 2 hours after the feeding.
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Couldn't they use a hypodermic needle to get the blood samples? seems a little extreme. I'm imagining little gillotines(sp?)
 
this is too confusing. unless someone can recommend a course of action for a casual onlooker like me, i'm gonna pass on all this hoopla...
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Andy741 @ Mar. 11 2003,6:04)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Jon Stark @ Aug. 12 2002,5:18)]Rats were sacrificed by decapitation before, immediately after exercise and 2 hours after the feeding.
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Couldn't they use a hypodermic needle to get the blood samples? seems a little extreme. I'm imagining little gillotines(sp?)
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Nope, you need nearly every drop of blood from the rats to get the various measures. As well as their muscles, their liver etc.
What sacrifices they make to further science.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (edziu @ Mar. 10 2003,5:37)]Here we are, considering buffering agents before workouts to minimize acidity, and then taking an acid afterwards. . .
But we're not really looking for the acidity. . .
Is it something specific to acetic acid that leads to proper uptake or conversion to citrate, or can we look to another source for acetate or citrate?
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The thing is I dont think that 5ml of vineger after a meal is going to make shag all of a difference to acid/base balance.
Acetic acid is a fatty acid, C2
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Saying that it would have much of an effect would be saying butter acidifies your blood, because it contains fatty acids.
hmmm

From reading the article in the Journal of Nutrition, it was actually older research from the asian krew, and it was basically a starvation diet for 15hours, to get glycogen depleted in the muscle and liver. THey then fed the rats and killed them. It was a good difference in terms of glycogen formation, especially for the soleus (I think it was)

It would be an interesting experiment. Now all I need is a rather hefty amount of funding, and somebody to do my research for me.
 
Aaron is right - vinegar doesn't seem to exert its effect through altering pH - the body's own buffering system is too efficient for that. Rather than going into a lengthy explanation, I encourage everyone to read this thread:

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/avantfo....&t=2120

I guess one can argue endlessly back and forth on this, but the anecdotal evidence seems to be good. I'm in my SD now, so I'll have to report on my own experiences with vinegar post-workout later. Nandi12 at CEM will be writing an article covering this in the near future.
 
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