What do you guys think is better
- Thread starter Joe.Muscle
- Start date
Joe.Muscle
Active Member
I guess looking at Lyles routine he recommends for large muscle groups.
3 to 4 sets of 6 to 8 reps, then 1 to 2 sets of 12 to 15 reps for metabolic work.
Max reps per workout would be 62 reps minimum reps would be 30.
Equalling anywere from between 124 reps per week per muscle group or 60.
Now take a HST workout with 3 sets of 10 reps or 30 total reps 3 times a week = 90 reps per week per muscle group.
Research shows a muscle needs 50 to 100 reps a week to grow. Anything above that could effect your frequency or recovery.
From Lyles forum I believe they are referring to this only in 2 a week training but obviously you can get there with 3 times a week (HST)
This was more along by statement or debate over the two routines.
You have HST which maximizes protein synthesis every 48 hours...but then you coulc make the arguement for Lyles routine with the "RIGHT NOW" training effect.
For those of you who are not familiar with the Right now effect basically some believe including myself that there has to be done a minimium amount of work or sets or reps just to get the muscle to grow.
For example I don't believe its optimal to train everyday fullbody and do 1 set of 10 reps. Would you still get between 50 to 100 reps a week this way....YES you would but IMO its not optimal at all. I have no science to reference just my view of years of bodybuilding.
I believe I remember reading back in the MM2000 days (muscle media) that Pavel "the evil russian" believe you should shoot for 120 reps per week per muscle.
This is some of the topics I enjoy discussing and maybe I should of adjusted this thread earlier to accomodate these discussions.
3 to 4 sets of 6 to 8 reps, then 1 to 2 sets of 12 to 15 reps for metabolic work.
Max reps per workout would be 62 reps minimum reps would be 30.
Equalling anywere from between 124 reps per week per muscle group or 60.
Now take a HST workout with 3 sets of 10 reps or 30 total reps 3 times a week = 90 reps per week per muscle group.
Research shows a muscle needs 50 to 100 reps a week to grow. Anything above that could effect your frequency or recovery.
From Lyles forum I believe they are referring to this only in 2 a week training but obviously you can get there with 3 times a week (HST)
This was more along by statement or debate over the two routines.
You have HST which maximizes protein synthesis every 48 hours...but then you coulc make the arguement for Lyles routine with the "RIGHT NOW" training effect.
For those of you who are not familiar with the Right now effect basically some believe including myself that there has to be done a minimium amount of work or sets or reps just to get the muscle to grow.
For example I don't believe its optimal to train everyday fullbody and do 1 set of 10 reps. Would you still get between 50 to 100 reps a week this way....YES you would but IMO its not optimal at all. I have no science to reference just my view of years of bodybuilding.
I believe I remember reading back in the MM2000 days (muscle media) that Pavel "the evil russian" believe you should shoot for 120 reps per week per muscle.
This is some of the topics I enjoy discussing and maybe I should of adjusted this thread earlier to accomodate these discussions.
''For those of you who are not familiar with the Right now effect basically some believe including myself that there has to be done a minimium amount of work or sets or reps just to get the muscle to grow.
For example I don't believe its optimal to train everyday fullbody and do 1 set of 10 reps. Would you still get between 50 to 100 reps a week this way....YES you would but IMO its not optimal at all. I have no science to reference just my view of years of bodybuilding.''
I agree Joe
For example I don't believe its optimal to train everyday fullbody and do 1 set of 10 reps. Would you still get between 50 to 100 reps a week this way....YES you would but IMO its not optimal at all. I have no science to reference just my view of years of bodybuilding.''
I agree Joe
<div>
(Joe.Muscle @ Feb. 15 2007,08:30)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">You have HST which maximizes protein synthesis every 48 hours...but then you coulc make the arguement for Lyles routine with the "RIGHT NOW" training effect.
For those of you who are not familiar with the Right now effect basically some believe including myself that there has to be done a minimium amount of work or sets or reps just to get the muscle to grow.</div>
As I posted in another thread, or maybe it was this one, this is what is being studied by Baldwin and others. And so far it's holding up to be true.
(Joe.Muscle @ Feb. 15 2007,08:30)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">You have HST which maximizes protein synthesis every 48 hours...but then you coulc make the arguement for Lyles routine with the "RIGHT NOW" training effect.
For those of you who are not familiar with the Right now effect basically some believe including myself that there has to be done a minimium amount of work or sets or reps just to get the muscle to grow.</div>
As I posted in another thread, or maybe it was this one, this is what is being studied by Baldwin and others. And so far it's holding up to be true.
Joe.Muscle
Active Member
Thanks Dan.
Hmmm. A little searching and I find that Ivanco uses each color for two different weights. Pro-Supra has red 45's, blue 35's, and yellow quarters. Kraighburg the same, plus black 15's and green tens. Fusion's have colored handles for the same weights; cool looking plates.
So there is sort of a standard here too, except for Ivanco.
So there is sort of a standard here too, except for Ivanco.
<div>
(quadancer @ Feb. 16 2007,02:36)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Thread Hijack: What are the color codes for the plates?
Is there also an American system in lbs?</div>
most US lifting federations work in kilograms, but convert to pounds
The offical is
green = 50 (110lb)
Gold = 45 (100lb)
Red = 25 (55lb)
Blue = 20 (44)
yellow = 15(33)
10 and under = anything
The likes of the IPF tend not to use the 50s and 45s (I think they phased out 45s compeltely)
If you look at Olympic lifting they use a similar setup, with 25s red, 20s blue, 15 yellow, but they also have big 10kg (22lb) plates which are green, 5kg (11) are white, 2.5kg (5.5) are red, 2kg (4.4) are blue, 1kg (2.2) are green and 0.5 (1.1) are white.
(quadancer @ Feb. 16 2007,02:36)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Thread Hijack: What are the color codes for the plates?
Is there also an American system in lbs?</div>
most US lifting federations work in kilograms, but convert to pounds
The offical is
green = 50 (110lb)
Gold = 45 (100lb)
Red = 25 (55lb)
Blue = 20 (44)
yellow = 15(33)
10 and under = anything
The likes of the IPF tend not to use the 50s and 45s (I think they phased out 45s compeltely)
If you look at Olympic lifting they use a similar setup, with 25s red, 20s blue, 15 yellow, but they also have big 10kg (22lb) plates which are green, 5kg (11) are white, 2.5kg (5.5) are red, 2kg (4.4) are blue, 1kg (2.2) are green and 0.5 (1.1) are white.
<div>
(Joe.Muscle @ Feb. 16 2007,02:30)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">From Lyles forum I believe they are referring to this only in 2 a week training but obviously you can get there with 3 times a week (HST)
This was more along by statement or debate over the two routines.</div>
you obviously have the grading of intensity as well. To perform semi maximal loads 3x weekly, such as heading intop the final weeks of 5;s for the standard HST program, your asking for joint issues.
or you could limit load progression and just stick with rep progression. But that sucks
More of a programming thought than a protein synthesis worry.
(Joe.Muscle @ Feb. 16 2007,02:30)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">From Lyles forum I believe they are referring to this only in 2 a week training but obviously you can get there with 3 times a week (HST)
This was more along by statement or debate over the two routines.</div>
you obviously have the grading of intensity as well. To perform semi maximal loads 3x weekly, such as heading intop the final weeks of 5;s for the standard HST program, your asking for joint issues.
or you could limit load progression and just stick with rep progression. But that sucks
More of a programming thought than a protein synthesis worry.
<div>
(quadancer @ Feb. 16 2007,07:16)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Hmmm. A little searching and I find that Ivanco uses each color for two different weights. Pro-Supra has red 45's, blue 35's, and yellow quarters. Kraighburg the same, plus black 15's and green tens. Fusion's have colored handles for the same weights; cool looking plates.
So there is sort of a standard here too, except for Ivanco.</div>
Ivanko suck
nad the others are not made for competition, otherwise htey would be the correct colours
(quadancer @ Feb. 16 2007,07:16)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Hmmm. A little searching and I find that Ivanco uses each color for two different weights. Pro-Supra has red 45's, blue 35's, and yellow quarters. Kraighburg the same, plus black 15's and green tens. Fusion's have colored handles for the same weights; cool looking plates.
So there is sort of a standard here too, except for Ivanco.</div>
Ivanko suck
nad the others are not made for competition, otherwise htey would be the correct colours
With regards to Lyle's pic, how much weight is that total? The picture is so small that it is hard to tell, but if that is four 25 kg plates, and the others are blue(?) which would be 40 kgs more, then that's like 140 kgs, which is a pretty decent amount of weight. Considering he's only like what, 150 lbs bodyweight, that's pretty good.
Joe.Muscle
Active Member
<div>
(Aaron_F @ Feb. 15 2007,17:14)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Joe.Muscle @ Feb. 16 2007,02:30)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">From Lyles forum I believe they are referring to this only in 2 a week training but obviously you can get there with 3 times a week (HST)
This was more along by statement or debate over the two routines.</div>
you obviously have the grading of intensity as well. To perform semi maximal loads 3x weekly, such as heading intop the final weeks of 5;s for the standard HST program, your asking for joint issues.
or you could limit load progression and just stick with rep progression. But that sucks
More of a programming thought than a protein synthesis worry.</div>
I sort of understand your post...but I sort of don't.
Sorry for the ignorance?
I guess my main statement or concern is sort of noobish...even though I have been doing hst for over 2 years.
I still find it hard to believe I can lay down on the bench press or any other muscle group and after a adequate warm up bang out 2 sets of 10 reps or 3 sets of 5 reps and get enough stimulation?
However right now I am doing only 20 reps per the forum advice and I have to be honest I feel great and my strenght is up about 10% across the board.
So from that standpoint everyone else is right and I am wrong with doing more volume...even though its tough to understand minimal volume.
I guess thats what caught my eye of Lyles Bulking routines was that the higher volume (not much) but you did get a bodybuilding effect feel from the routine....plus plenty of recovery.
I think Lyle even speaks of this and so does Bryan about how a routine can be effective but it still (unfortunatly) has to have a bodybuilding feel to it or the public (myself) just have a hard time understanding it!
(Aaron_F @ Feb. 15 2007,17:14)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Joe.Muscle @ Feb. 16 2007,02:30)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">From Lyles forum I believe they are referring to this only in 2 a week training but obviously you can get there with 3 times a week (HST)
This was more along by statement or debate over the two routines.</div>
you obviously have the grading of intensity as well. To perform semi maximal loads 3x weekly, such as heading intop the final weeks of 5;s for the standard HST program, your asking for joint issues.
or you could limit load progression and just stick with rep progression. But that sucks
More of a programming thought than a protein synthesis worry.</div>
I sort of understand your post...but I sort of don't.
Sorry for the ignorance?
I guess my main statement or concern is sort of noobish...even though I have been doing hst for over 2 years.
I still find it hard to believe I can lay down on the bench press or any other muscle group and after a adequate warm up bang out 2 sets of 10 reps or 3 sets of 5 reps and get enough stimulation?
However right now I am doing only 20 reps per the forum advice and I have to be honest I feel great and my strenght is up about 10% across the board.
So from that standpoint everyone else is right and I am wrong with doing more volume...even though its tough to understand minimal volume.
I guess thats what caught my eye of Lyles Bulking routines was that the higher volume (not much) but you did get a bodybuilding effect feel from the routine....plus plenty of recovery.
I think Lyle even speaks of this and so does Bryan about how a routine can be effective but it still (unfortunatly) has to have a bodybuilding feel to it or the public (myself) just have a hard time understanding it!
<div>
(Joe.Muscle @ Feb. 16 2007,12:12)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I sort of understand your post...but I sort of don't.</div>
My point was that it can be perfectly easy for somnebody who has a 5rm of 250 bench to do it three times per week.
Now take his 5rm to 350 or 400 and the stress on the tendons/joints somewhat more
and then get above 400 and your in another world.
as load increases you have to accomodate different issues than you do when the load is lower.
But then I sit here after a high volume loading period, three days per week and have sore elbows, wrists, bicep tendon and shoulders.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Sorry for the ignorance?
I guess my main statement or concern is sort of noobish...even though I have been doing hst for over 2 years.</div>
No need to be sorry that you cant understnad my babble
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I still find it hard to believe I can lay down on the bench press or any other muscle group and after a adequate warm up bang out 2 sets of 10 reps or 3 sets of 5 reps and get enough stimulation?</div>This will be also aligned to training age. The more you have progressed, typically the more you have to do to progress further. Until you hit the rate that returns are nearly impossible to justify in terms of the input.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">However right now I am doing only 20 reps per the forum advice and I have to be honest I feel great and my strenght is up about 10% across the board.</div>That is one way to track progress, if the ultimate goal is to get bigger, then thats what it has to translate to in the end.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So from that standpoint everyone else is right and I am wrong with doing more volume...even though its tough to understand minimal volume.</div>
Thats because there is no real set minimal or maximal volume. More of a range of potentials that roll off genetics, nutrition, training age, fitness yada yada. Track the progress and see what happens.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I guess thats what caught my eye of Lyles Bulking routines was that the higher volume (not much) but you did get a bodybuilding effect feel from the routine....plus plenty of recovery.</div>
You can create a 3day per week program with lyles concepts, but it would probably suck. 2x weekly allows for a reasonably heavy load and works in well with mosts peopels weeks.
In a month I am doing ap rogram similar to lyles, 2 upper 2 lower, that fits into a normal training week for me (mon/tue/thur/fri). To accomodate the additional volume I want for the focus muscle groups, I split my trainign sessions on those days over to 2x daily. So i end up doing 6 sessions per week, soemthing like 4 lower, 2 upper.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I think Lyle even speaks of this and so does Bryan about how a routine can be effective but it still (unfortunatly) has to have a bodybuilding feel to it or the public (myself) just have a hard time understanding it!
</div>Most bbrs will translate the program using Bro logic. Doesnt make it wrong, but generally they are wrong in the logic behind why it works.
(Joe.Muscle @ Feb. 16 2007,12:12)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I sort of understand your post...but I sort of don't.</div>
My point was that it can be perfectly easy for somnebody who has a 5rm of 250 bench to do it three times per week.
Now take his 5rm to 350 or 400 and the stress on the tendons/joints somewhat more
and then get above 400 and your in another world.
as load increases you have to accomodate different issues than you do when the load is lower.
But then I sit here after a high volume loading period, three days per week and have sore elbows, wrists, bicep tendon and shoulders.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Sorry for the ignorance?
I guess my main statement or concern is sort of noobish...even though I have been doing hst for over 2 years.</div>
No need to be sorry that you cant understnad my babble
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I still find it hard to believe I can lay down on the bench press or any other muscle group and after a adequate warm up bang out 2 sets of 10 reps or 3 sets of 5 reps and get enough stimulation?</div>This will be also aligned to training age. The more you have progressed, typically the more you have to do to progress further. Until you hit the rate that returns are nearly impossible to justify in terms of the input.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">However right now I am doing only 20 reps per the forum advice and I have to be honest I feel great and my strenght is up about 10% across the board.</div>That is one way to track progress, if the ultimate goal is to get bigger, then thats what it has to translate to in the end.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So from that standpoint everyone else is right and I am wrong with doing more volume...even though its tough to understand minimal volume.</div>
Thats because there is no real set minimal or maximal volume. More of a range of potentials that roll off genetics, nutrition, training age, fitness yada yada. Track the progress and see what happens.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I guess thats what caught my eye of Lyles Bulking routines was that the higher volume (not much) but you did get a bodybuilding effect feel from the routine....plus plenty of recovery.</div>
You can create a 3day per week program with lyles concepts, but it would probably suck. 2x weekly allows for a reasonably heavy load and works in well with mosts peopels weeks.
In a month I am doing ap rogram similar to lyles, 2 upper 2 lower, that fits into a normal training week for me (mon/tue/thur/fri). To accomodate the additional volume I want for the focus muscle groups, I split my trainign sessions on those days over to 2x daily. So i end up doing 6 sessions per week, soemthing like 4 lower, 2 upper.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I think Lyle even speaks of this and so does Bryan about how a routine can be effective but it still (unfortunatly) has to have a bodybuilding feel to it or the public (myself) just have a hard time understanding it!
Joe.Muscle
Active Member
Thank you Aaron for your detailed answer and post.
Makes sense now!
Thanks again!
Makes sense now!
Thanks again!