What's your take?

J

JonPaul

New Member
Hello Everybody.

Here in a few weeks I will be starting my first HST cycle, and I am pretty jazzzzzzzed about it.  I have read through everything, and I am feeling pretty good about getting started.  But I wanted your input to some of the following info.

I will be starting the program with a training partner who has never formally trained. He is ectomorphic like myself.  Let me give you a rundown of our stats and goals.

Myself: 6'0" 185 @ around 16%bf (est)
My goals are arm size (2" unproportioned to body), gut loss and definition. I want another 15 pounds of muscle, and reduce bodyfat by 10%.

Training Partner (TP): 6'2" 174 @ around 13% bf (est) {{he says he is 174 but I think 165}}
His goals are 25-30 pounds of muscle, and he says he really needs alot of it in the legs.

TP is needing to do squats and deadlifts. My legs blow up when I train them (i can put 2 inches on in zero time) so I only do them when my lower body seems "small" and then only heavy step-ups.   His calves are puny, mine are around 16-1/2" inches (never specifically trained). His are like 12.  I need arm size since mine are 13" cold, and refuse to grow under all circumstances. I have no chest definition. I just can't get bigger overall in the upper body, and with no specific muscle standing out (don't know how else to explain it). I am hopeful HST will solve that problem. Training partner is pretty much 75% legs... his waist is a good 3 inches higher than mine.  We both have extremely long arms.  When benching, I have to stop the bar about 4 inhes above my body to avoid shoulder injuries.

I am after size and definition of about 190-195 @ 8%.  I am leary of "eating big" after the S2B debacle (berardi).

TP is skinny and wants to go up over 200+.  He seems he can eat big and not put on fat. He eats horrible and is thin as a rail.  I am Endomorph in the gut.  I put fat on rather easily on my torso.  I have tried cutting, but I always lose the little arm size i do get from the bulk, and then look even more disportionate. I think TP will respond well to over eating without much of a problem.


So I would like your feedback and how to setup a good program that can address both of our specific needs?

The program I had intital put down included... Bench press, dumbell presses, pulldowns, seated rows, Shrugs, Skullcrushers, Barbell curls, Step-ups, calve raises and hammy curls.I am not sold on this program and TP is ready to go.  

Wanted to get your guys take in any way you can offer advice.  All of it will be taken to heart.

HELP, and any feedback would be severly appreciated!
 
FULL BODY MON WED FRI
Flat Bench
Seated Military Press
BB Rows
Deadlift

*either rotate deads with squats or introduce squats
to exersize list at beggining of SECOND cycle when conditioning will be reached to handle squats and deads together.

putting everything you have into four unbeatable compounds will develope more and give better recovery , enabling more productive W/O's.
Whatever you do I would include BB rows, especially as you are adressing an arm size issue. I'd drop all direct arm work and do what I've listed above , eat enuff and you WILL grow.
biggrin.gif
 
For the lifts, I would do the following for you.

Monday and Friday:

Deadlifts
Incline bench
Bentover rows with an underhanded grip
Military Press
Preacher Curls

Wed:

Squats
Weighted Chins
Weighted Dips
Close Grip Bench
Upright Row (if you can do them with proper form and without pain)

That should put some size on your arms. I opted for squats only once a week and deads twice a week for you, but for your partner, do the squats on Mon and Fri and deads on Wed. Your partner could drop the curls and add in some other leg work, maybe a leg iso or something like good mornings or SLDL.

Diet wise, you will have the best results if you decide on a clear goal. You aren't going to have very good results if you try to lose your gut AND gain size on your arms at the same time. So... I would focus on gaining size right now, since you aren't very big. Start taking in around 18 times your bodyweight in lbs worth of calories each day. Refigure this number constantly as your weight goes up. Get plenty of protein. Do a few HST cycles like this, shoot for about 200 lbs bodyweight or even a bit more, then after that, you can start a very slow cut.
If you cut properly, you shouldn't lose arm size. You might lose some size temporary when you lose water weight, but it is only temporary. Though I'm a bit confused, since you seemed to have said that you had great results cutting using six meals a day in the other thread... just joking. Seriously though, once you get to the cut, stick to a 500 calorie deficit, no more than that. Keep lifting HST three times a week and do cardio on Tues and Thurs, taking the weekends off... and you should slim down slowly over a few cycles with minimal loss of muscle mass.
 
What can I add
biggrin.gif
Tot and Russ have it covered.

You will have to do legs nevertheless, just don't overemphasize.

Simplify and win is a good thread if you want other options.
wink.gif
 
<div>
(RUSS @ Jan. 28 2007,11:14)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">FULL BODY MON WED FRI
  Flat Bench
  Seated Military Press
  BB Rows
  Deadlift

  *either rotate deads with squats or introduce squats
to exersize list at beggining of SECOND cycle when conditioning will be reached to handle squats and deads together.

  putting everything you have into four unbeatable compounds will develope more and give better recovery , enabling more productive W/O's.
Whatever you do I would include BB rows, especially as you are adressing an arm size issue. I'd drop all direct arm work and do what I've listed above , eat enuff and you WILL grow.
biggrin.gif
</div>
I like the simplicity of it. You go four exercises and you hit them hard. What I don't know about here is:

1) Doing 1 set of each exercise means I do four sets per workout, and it will be done in less than 20 minutes.

2) TP calves need some work.

3) I need some arm soreness.

I swear I feel sometimes my arms are rubber bands that no matter how hard I hit them they just rebound back to nothing.

?
 
<div>
(Totentanz @ Jan. 28 2007,11:41)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">For the lifts, I would do the following for you.

Monday and Friday:

Deadlifts
Incline bench
Bentover rows with an underhanded grip
Military Press
Preacher Curls

Wed:

Squats
Weighted Chins
Weighted Dips
Close Grip Bench
Upright Row (if you can do them with proper form and without pain)

That should put some size on your arms.  I opted for squats only once a week and deads twice a week for you, but for your partner, do the squats on Mon and Fri and deads on Wed.  Your partner could drop the curls and add in some other leg work, maybe a leg iso or something like good mornings or SLDL.

Diet wise, you will have the best results if you decide on a clear goal.  You aren't going to have very good results if you try to lose your gut AND gain size on your arms at the same time.  So...  I would focus on gaining size right now, since you aren't very big.  Start taking in around 18 times your bodyweight in lbs worth of calories each day.  Refigure this number constantly as your weight goes up.  Get plenty of protein.  Do a few HST cycles like this, shoot for about 200 lbs bodyweight or even a bit more, then after that, you can start a very slow cut.
If you cut properly, you shouldn't lose arm size.  You might lose some size temporary when you lose water weight, but it is only temporary.  Though I'm a bit confused, since you seemed to have said that you had great results cutting using six meals a day in the other thread...  just joking.  Seriously though, once you get to the cut, stick to a 500 calorie deficit, no more than that.  Keep lifting HST three times a week and do cardio on Tues and Thurs, taking the weekends off...  and you should slim down slowly over a few cycles with minimal loss of muscle mass.</div>
TOT,
I like the volume of it. but once again 5 exercises with one set each and the workout is about 30 minutes. Seems like I need some more time working out.

Twice a day?

I find the alternating scheme a little odd. Weighted chins and dips won't be a possibility since we aren't at that stage yet.

I agree diet wise that we must either gain size or lose fat as a goal {but I still believe both are possible under ideal conditions}.

I had great results losing weight eating 6 times a day, although since I have not put on any substantial muscle after 18 months of dedicated training, I may try a different approach there.

ANyway to keep the workout consistent, without the alternating? Trying the KISS method as much as possible.

revisions, Tot?
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Diet wise, you will have the best results if you decide on a clear goal. You aren't going to have very good results if you try to lose your gut AND gain size on your arms at the same time</div>

I will echo what Tot said. Even if you are doing a slow bulk at +300cal/day, it is still a bulk nevertheless. Without a sound diet, you won't have the results you expected.
 
<div>
(colby2152 @ Jan. 30 2007,10:06)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Diet wise, you will have the best results if you decide on a clear goal.  You aren't going to have very good results if you try to lose your gut AND gain size on your arms at the same time</div>

I will echo what Tot said.  Even if you are doing a slow bulk at +300cal/day, it is still a bulk nevertheless.  Without a sound diet, you won't have the results you expected.</div>
Colby, with all the different calorie calculation formula's out there... whcih one is most accurate? Doing a 300kcal slow bulk would mean you would pretty much have to be dead on calorie wise. Most maintenance calculations can be off by 300 or 400 calories!
 
im sure colby will answer but ill throw my 02 cents in.

if you want to bulk or cut the &quot;best&quot; way it usually involves tracking/counting cals. those new to lifting can certainly get away with just plain bulking or cutting by estimating surplus/deficit for a while. eventually those that stick with it long enough usually get to a point where they say &quot;hey where did all the muscle go&quot; (cutting) or &quot;hey, where did all this fat come from&quot; (bulking) or even worse &quot;hey ive been at this for 2yrs and ive only gained 5lbs&quot; (not bulking enough).

bottom line, all the talk about bw x 14-15 for maint and bw x 17-18 is good advice to get you started. you have to take it from there by tracking your intake and seeing what it will do for you. there are not too many that cant gain on bw x 18 ( actual cals #'s not estimations) but some gain too much wgt (over 1 lb  a week) on that while others barely gain.

honestly it takes about 2-3 weeks of tracking in conjunction with consistant wgt checks before youll have maint as well as gain (or cut)  cal amounts down to a specific # (say bw x 15.5=maint, bw x 17=gain). this will of course work for &quot;typical&quot; days so others with more activity will need more cals etc. but thats the beauty of tracking, you get to see what happens to your wgt when changes come.

good luck
 
<div>
(JonPaul @ Jan. 29 2007,12:41)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(RUSS @ Jan. 28 2007,11:14)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">FULL BODY MON WED FRI
  Flat Bench
  Seated Military Press
  BB Rows
  Deadlift

  *either rotate deads with squats or introduce squats
to exersize list at beggining of SECOND cycle when conditioning will be reached to handle squats and deads together.

  putting everything you have into four unbeatable compounds will develope more and give better recovery , enabling more productive W/O's.
Whatever you do I would include BB rows, especially as you are adressing an arm size issue. I'd drop all direct arm work and do what I've listed above , eat enuff and you WILL grow.
biggrin.gif
</div>
I like the simplicity of it. You go four exercises and you hit them hard. What I don't know about here is:

1) Doing 1 set of each exercise means I do four sets per workout, and it will be done in less than 20 minutes.

2) TP calves need some work.

3) I need some arm soreness.

I swear I feel sometimes my arms are rubber bands that no matter how hard I hit them they just rebound back to nothing.

?</div>
You could add up to two iso's to the 4 compounds and still be recovering well enuff, in your case BB curls and perhaps a calf exersize would make you more comfortable than just the four alone.See the thing is that by your 5's you would be doing 12 sets each w/o with just the four compounds (assuming you do the typical 1x15's 2x10's 3x5's progression) so the workouts will become longer towards the end of the cycle  . Even if they didn't and your conditioning allowed you to keep rests extrememly short and fly thru all 12 sets (or 18 if you added two iso's), it is MHO that brevity of the w/o is actually a good thing .
   HST principles are based on frequency, so doing more than it takes to send that muscle the impetus to grow each workout (although personally satisfying perhaps) could be doing nothing more than impinging on recovery.
  Of course theres more than one way to &quot;skin the cat&quot; as they say, i personally prefer the K.I.S.S. way of doing things others may like to get a bit more complex , I see progress being made by both types on this board as long as HST principles are being followed.
smile.gif
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Colby, with all the different calorie calculation formula's out there... whcih one is most accurate? Doing a 300kcal slow bulk would mean you would pretty much have to be dead on calorie wise. Most maintenance calculations can be off by 300 or 400 calories!</div>

There are a lot of equations out there, but anyone that is based off your bodyfat percentage will be the most accurate. I use the Katch-McArdle equation, but I have tailored it so the Activity Level is sedentary at 1.1; I then count up the calories I burned through the day from major exercises (walking, running, weightlifting, sports, and sex) and add them to my BMR for my TDEE total. I then balance this with the calories I count each and every day. If I am cutting, I underestimate my TDEE and overestimate the caloric intake. I do the inverse for a bulk. If my body's weight is not changing within the goals, I would make some minor adjustments to the TDEE equation by shifting it +/- 100 calories based on the weight I should be at.
 
<div>
(bluejacket @ Feb. 02 2007,16:14)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">im sure colby will answer but ill throw my 02 cents in.

if you want to bulk or cut the &quot;best&quot; way it usually involves tracking/counting cals. those new to lifting can certainly get away with just plain bulking or cutting by estimating surplus/deficit for a while. eventually those that stick with it long enough usually get to a point where they say &quot;hey where did all the muscle go&quot; (cutting) or &quot;hey, where did all this fat come from&quot; (bulking) or even worse &quot;hey ive been at this for 2yrs and ive only gained 5lbs&quot; (not bulking enough).

bottom line, all the talk about bw x 14-15 for maint and bw x 17-18 is good advice to get you started. you have to take it from there by tracking your intake and seeing what it will do for you. there are not too many that cant gain on bw x 18 ( actual cals #'s not estimations) but some gain too much wgt (over 1 lb a week) on that while others barely gain.

honestly it takes about 2-3 weeks of tracking in conjunction with consistant wgt checks before youll have maint as well as gain (or cut) cal amounts down to a specific # (say bw x 15.5=maint, bw x 17=gain). this will of course work for &quot;typical&quot; days so others with more activity will need more cals etc. but thats the beauty of tracking, you get to see what happens to your wgt when changes come.

good luck</div>
What bluejacket said in the last paragraph represents the time frame it should take the find your BMR within 50 calories. At this point, the error you would have in a week with strict counting would be up to 10%.

Whether you use an equation like Katch-McArdle, the calculator need2eat provided, or the bodyweight multipliers that are mentioned in the FAQ's; the same principals of estimation are constant:

1) The more strict that you count, the less error you will have.
2) It takes a few weeks to truely find your BMR.
3) No estimate is ever 100% correct. This is why they are called estimates.

Also, the idea of overstimating caloric intake / underestimating TDEE (Total Daily Energy Expenditure) during a cut is commonly applied no matter what estimations you use.

I hope all this has helped.
 
Hey I started a HST cycle by myself, since my training partner and I haven't settled the gym situation (we live 8 miles apart).

I decided to do the original program i listed, then with the training partner do a modified program like the ones suggested above.

I like the feel of it, although 1 set and 15 reps, I am finishing within 25 minutes. I have been adding some stretches and stuff to bump it to 45 mins.

3 workouts of the 15's down, and I am feeling really good so far. Ten's start Monday!
 
Like you bro, I feel like I'm not working out in the 15's, so I do 2 work sets after a 5 rep warmup for them. Then 10x2 and 5x3. You do what feels right to you; HST is a set of principles, not rules.
 
You should really do at least squats or deads. You have compounds for the upper body but none for the lower body. You said your calves are already big, so drop the calf work. You could drop all the leg work you have currently and just do deads, those will help with your upper body too, since you want to put emphasis on upper. So... that's what I would do if I were you.

Good luck.
 
I agree. I have been doing step-ups (one leg of course), holding dumbbells. I know this hits quads and Hams, and they are pretty tough on the legs. My legs are fast twitch so I really don't need to hit them very hard. But I agree that squats are on the horizon.
 
Even though deadlifts hit your hamstrings and even quads depending on your stance, they hit your shoulders, lower back, and arms. Sacrificing that exercise efficiency will hurt your workout as Totentanz pointed out.
 
Fairly new to deadlifting, but since the arms just act as 'hooks' I don't see them being incorporated much, save for gripping with the forearm muscles. But with max rows and presses, they get a pretty good workout. I think that's why mine didn't lose any ground with the 5x5 program, doing iso's just once a week. They actually grew a little.
 
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