Your opinion needed

Discussion in 'Diet & Nutrition' started by Joe.Muscle, May 30, 2006.

  1. Joe.Muscle

    Joe.Muscle Active Member

    Okay let me ask a simple yet not simple question…that in a way I know the answer to but yet I don't so here goes.

    I am going to do a bulk cycle starting in August, one of those cycles were I am not going to worry about fat gain until 15% bf. I am currently about 9 % so I should be able to added about 20 pounds to my frame..hopefully half will be muscle other half fat and water. Well I know the importance of eating clean, b/c I have been doing it for a while to get down to 9%...actually I have been eating simi clean but more like portion control. I don’t always get 1 gram of protein but I still made great gains.

    So this next bulk cycle I am shooting to get in lots of extra calories. Does it matter where I get them from. I mean trying to get 3500 clean calories a day is a lot harder than getting just 3500 calories a day. I mean as long as my protein intake is high…does it really matter as far as muscle growth.

    For example I am considering still eating simi decent. Like I will eat all the burgers I want but no fry's type of thing.

    So I was thinking get in 1,000 calories a day from protein shakes, then get in my daily 3 to 4 meals…and then whats wrong to go to say Macdonals and get a double quarter pounder no fries…tons of calories and 50 grams of protein?

    I know a clean bulk is healthier…but as for as muscle go's and gaining weight…this should be okay?

    I know a calorie is not a calorie….as far as vitamins, health and nutrition but as far as gaining and losing weight a calorie is a calorie.

    Any thoughts guys?

    Thanks
     
  2. mazmonsters

    mazmonsters New Member

    Hey Joe.
    I've never tried to bulk just to bulk. I am trying it now, though, and even by eating clean, I am still putting on fat. My only advice (if you call it advice) is that by eating the junk to get your calories, you will probably feel it a lot more than eating clean. What I mean is that if you eat Macdonalds, the bun has no nutritional value, so those calories will go in your "storage" area, and will also make you feel more sluggish. Eating a steak with 4 oz. (before cooked) of pasta, and a huge piece of fruit (grapefruit) and some corn or spinach will not only make you feel better, but also keep your energy up for your daily work (including the gym). I have never talked with anyone who ate crappy and felt great.
    But, what do I know? Just my two cents.
    Good luck
     
  3. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    Sorry mazmonsters, but that's all bullcrap. You won't get fatter during a bulk from not eating clean. Anyone who tells you that doesn't know what they are talking about. What the hell does 'eating clean' even mean these days anyway? It seems to change every couple months. One month it means all you can eat is brocolli and chicken, next time it means no saturated fats, no simple carbs, etc.

    Plain and simple - the more calories, the more weight you will gain. It doesn't matter how clean the food is, what matters is how much food you eat. Eat too much and you'll gain a lot of fat alongside the muscle, but don't eat enough and your muscle gains will be paltry.

    For what it's worth, I've tried eating clean versus just eating normally and I've not noticed any difference in energy levels. One thing I HAVE noticed is that when I eat whatever, it is MUCH easier to hit my calorie goals. That means less time wasted trying to plan all my meals out and more time to spend working out or enjoying everything else in life.

    There is a still difference between eating whatever you need to and eating like a total retard. Obviously you want to get plenty of protein during a bulk regardless of whether you 'eat clean' or not.
     
  4. Omega_man

    Omega_man New Member

    Hi Joe,
    There was a post I made somewhere recently where I said may gains came on after I started to "eat much more". Basically, I think the best thing to do is pretty much eat "the house" when you get to the part of the cycle (example: mid 10's and on) where you normally expect the gains to come on. Still getting as much protein as needed, but get the calories from whereever. If you over do it, its easy to back off a little. If you under do it...well... gains may not be there at all & a lot of hard work could be lost.

    My favorite was various 1 ft sub-sandwiches (for variety). I would eat 2 each day & get them on whole wheat buns, let & tom & whatever meat you like for the protein. If I felt like pizza, I got it on whole wheat crust with chicken or beef.

    Omega (eatting the house one day at a time)
     
  5. Maximuscrates

    Maximuscrates New Member

    So basically, A calorie is a calorie is a calorie.

    Doesn't matter if its hydrogenated oil or monounsaturate.

    For now on I will get 60% clean for protein and vitamines, and 40% dirty because I cannot eat much more food as I stuffed.

    Thanks!
     
  6. bluejacket

    bluejacket New Member

    <div>
    (Totentanz @ May 30 2006,23:05)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Sorry mazmonsters, but that's all bullcrap.  You won't get fatter during a bulk from not eating clean.  Anyone who tells you that doesn't know what they are talking about.  What the hell does 'eating clean' even mean these days anyway?  It seems to change every couple months.  One month it means all you can eat is brocolli and chicken, next time it means no saturated fats, no simple carbs, etc.

    Plain and simple - the more calories, the more weight you will gain.  It doesn't matter how clean the food is, what matters is how much food you eat.  Eat too much and you'll gain a lot of fat alongside the muscle, but don't eat enough and your muscle gains will be paltry.

    For what it's worth, I've tried eating clean versus just eating normally and I've not noticed any difference in energy levels.  One thing I HAVE noticed is that when I eat whatever, it is MUCH easier to hit my calorie goals.  That means less time wasted trying to plan all my meals out and more time to spend working out or enjoying everything else in life.

    There is a still difference between eating whatever you need to and eating like a total retard.  Obviously you want to get plenty of protein during a bulk regardless of whether you 'eat clean' or not.</div>
    sorry totz, but thats not all bullcrap (i guess this means i dont know what im talking about). eating clean does not change each month unless your following &quot;fad&quot; diets that come out on a weekly basis. i think its great that a simple cals in -vs- cals out approach works for you but im sure youll agree we are all not created equal. if it doesnt matter how clean the food is only how much you eat why do you need to obviously get plenty of protien?

    personally i find that cals in/out is the most important and fundamental dietary aspect of gaining. sort of like putting in the base milage for a marathon. but after running a few marathons you want to improve on your time so you need to improve your training. muscle growth can be approached the same way, continually improving both lifting and eating.

    no need to get into a big debate on competing diets plans etc. but i certainly feel, work,sleep and grow muscle better when i eat clean. this is just me though, ive only experimented on myself so im not going to assume what works for me will obviously work for everyone else the same way.

    joe m.
    3500 cals clean can be done but takes time and effort to prep the food. if work, life etc. is just to busy for that then get your cals where you can. i would recomend planning a couple meals a day to make sure you get quality food in you (food protien, vegis, fruit, fiber) and the rest just eat for calories. as you go along you can adjust how you do it on how your feeling, gaining, time constraints etc.

    i dont know of anyone who didnt think they could improve their diet approach (gain or cut) the next time.

    good luck
     
  7. berserk

    berserk Member

    How could gains would be any different if the same amount of calories with approximately the same % of macronutrients was consumed over several months with the same training? All I can think of is the possibility of less complete proteins being consumed, but that wouldn't be a problem on a 'supersize me' type diet with all the meat and thickshakes. But of course vitamin intake could suffer. Vitamin deficiencies can of course have all sorts of inhibiting effects on the body. And of course consuming too much saturated/trans fat may set you up for a heart attack later in life which will definitely hinder ones gains in the gym!
     
  8. mostlyallan

    mostlyallan New Member

    Ok people, this is the calories in Big Mac Bun with sesame seeds:

    Calories 200
    Calories from Fat 31

    Total Fat 3.5g
    Saturated Fat 0.5g
    Cholesterol 0mg
    Sodium 350mg
    Total Carbohydrates 37.0g
    Dietary Fiber 2.0g
    Sugars 5.0g
    Protein 6.0g

    mazmonsters, you said &quot;What I mean is that if you eat Macdonalds, the bun has no nutritional value&quot; - well where do the 200kcals go? 37g of carbs? 6g protein? To me that looks nutritional.

    This business comes down to misinformation and the label of &quot;junk food&quot;. Too much exercise is bad for people yet I never hear about &quot;junk workouts&quot;. McDonalds isn't junk food. Their food contains all I need - carbs, protein, fats. Now, if I eat TOO much McDonalds then I may O.D. on the saturated fat content but then that comes down to moderation.

    Right, wheres my wallet [​IMG] ... McChicken sandwich coming through ... [​IMG]
     
  9. colby2152

    colby2152 New Member

    The one way that I think eating dirty will truely negate your gains is when it is alcohol. The 7 calories per gram of alcohol is not nutrition at all for you body, and the effects of it slow down your metabolism.
     
  10. Maximuscrates

    Maximuscrates New Member

    200 calories in a bic mac does not seem like very much. where did you get your number.

    I make sandwhiches at home which have approximatly 500 calories mainly from the flax bread and the meat. it would be even higher if i added cheese. my sandwhiches also have 21 grams of protein in them.

    heres the nutrition data i found on big macs.
    http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-B00001-01c21cK.html

    I think my sandwhich wins in everything but the extra 90 calories the bigmac has. So you want to eat 3500 clean calories, this is not hard at all.
     
  11. Joe.Muscle

    Joe.Muscle Active Member

    He was saying 200 calories from the bun.

    Thanks guys for all the posts, it proves my point I think that a calorie is a calorie as far as weight loss/ or gain.

    I agree with Tot that its just as simple as burn more calories than you put into your body you loss weight burn less than you put in your mouth you gain.

    I just wanted some other opinions on this.

    I never really say this b/c it is so damn controversial but I am down to 9% bodyfat at the moment, and I have done that by eating some type of fast food (within moderation) everyday.

    So yes it can be done...its just not the typical tuna and chicken breast with not ketchup route..hehe.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    <div>
    (bluejacket @ May 31 2006,00:28)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">sorry totz, but thats not all bullcrap (i guess this means i dont know what im talking about). eating clean does not change each month unless your following &quot;fad&quot; diets that come out on a weekly basis. i think its great that a simple cals in -vs- cals out approach works for you but im sure youll agree we are all not created equal. if it doesnt matter how clean the food is only how much you eat why do you need to obviously get plenty of protien?</div>
    Protein is what muscle is made out of, so that part is obvious.

    If eating clean does effect fat gain, and I'm wrong about that, please post the research that shows that eating clean will prevent fat gain, compared to eating whatever, when you are using the same caloric surplus and same amount of activity with both diets.


    Simply put - eating clean will not prevent fat gain.
     
  13. mostlyallan

    mostlyallan New Member

    If a piece if broccoli means you'll go over maintenance then the broccoli is what will make you fat (ok maybe not THAT simplistic but its the excess calories that make you fat...not the type of food).
     
  14. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    <div>
    (NeeBone @ May 31 2006,09:52)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If a piece if broccoli means you'll go over maintenance then the broccoli is what will make you fat (ok maybe not THAT simplistic but its the excess calories that make you fat...not the type of food).</div>
    Yes, exactly. That was my whole point. I see people posting a lot saying &quot;yo bros, i'm gaining way too much fat while bulking, what should i do&quot; and half the people reply &quot;start eating clean to minimize fat gain bro&quot; when that won't help at all unless he cuts back his calories at the same time.
     
  15. Fausto

    Fausto HST Expert

    Tot

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Simply put - eating clean will not prevent fat gain.</div>

    Whilst I agree with that, I must say eating clean will go a long way towards maintaining your health, at the end of the day, I think one has to be rather &quot;dumb&quot; to just eat a lot of saturated fats and other such nonsense just to get calories. [​IMG]

    That is one recipe for disaster, if you don't believe me just go read the Tate project over at T-mag, the man was puking from eating clean, [​IMG] his diet consisted of some over 10,000 calories of junk.

    There is also a link to J. Berardi's book here that contains information negating a &quot;calory is a calory&quot; theory. [​IMG]

    Bulking clean as possible is the way to go! There's enough reasearch out there linking bad eating habits to cancer, cardio &amp; artery disease, etc, etc....the list is endless! [​IMG]
     
  16. Joe.Muscle

    Joe.Muscle Active Member

    I have read the Tate Project..and that was almost like and addiction to fast food...but extreme case b/c of his high demands for high calories. I think the main thing to consider is portion control. You dont want every meal to come from fast food, however I agree with Tot on his line of thinking, I think you can make wise decisions from fast food and be ok.

    Berardi..doesn't think a calorie is a calorie...and with his educational background and doctorate degree...I have to show him the upmost respect on that matter. Without knowing much of the research I would have to agree and disagree with him on a calorie is a calorie.

    In my opinion if all you do is take in 1200 calories a day and exercise it doesn't make a shi-t if its from Donuts or chicken breast from a weight loss standpoint. However from a maintaining health and getting in adequate vitamins we know healthier foods tend to give you more of the vitamins you are looking for instead of a donut.

    In my opinion you should keep protein at .7 of your lean body mass and everything else is as simple as how much you do or dont burn in a days time. If you burn more than you take in you are cutting and vise versa for bulking.

    A lot of people are against drinking milk...but to me its the best tasting protein drink on the market and its great for bulking...there will always be controversy.
     
  17. mostlyallan

    mostlyallan New Member

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">there will always be controversy</div>

    Mainly down to ignorance tho.

    I disagree with &quot;a calorie is a calorie&quot; in the sense that a calorie of carbs isnt going to build muscle whereas a calorie of protein will, BUT, with respect to just &quot;eating&quot;, you WILL bulk if you just eat (I mean eating 0.5kg of lard a day isnt going to be good for you at all - thats just plain stupid).

    But I think we can all agree (those enlightened anyway) that you can only bulk on excess calories - and those CAN include so called &quot;junk&quot;.

    And milk rocks! Forget skim milk with my weight gainer - its full fat baby, all the way [​IMG]
     
  18. Joe.Muscle

    Joe.Muscle Active Member

    Yeah not trying to get to crazy with the calorie is a calorie thing.

    You are right there is definatly a difference if you are eating just lard.

    My only point is if you burn more than you take in you will lose weight...its simple math. How wether or not that will be fat or muscle depends upon many things...i.e. protein intake, carbs and so on.


    I think Berardi and a lot of others are great at what they do, I have a friend who is a nutrionalist and he recommends not drinking milk, dont drink diet drinks b/c of ASpertame and so on...only organic foods...and my things is I think eating the so called &quot;clean&quot; way is great, but its not realitic or LIVING to not have some leway with your diet.

    EVERYTHING in moderation....is my point of view.
     
  19. mostlyallan

    mostlyallan New Member

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">EVERYTHING in moderation....is my point of view</div>

    I definitely buy that argument.

    (Aint giving up the milk tho!)
     
  20. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    <div>
    (Fausto @ May 31 2006,10:34)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Bulking clean as possible is the way to go! There's enough reasearch out there linking bad eating habits to cancer, cardio &amp; artery disease, etc, etc....the list is endless! [​IMG]</div>
    Way off topic here but, if you are really thinking health and longevity then why correlate healthy living to Body Building and bulking, you would be much better served to be tiny.
     

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