Your opinion needed

Discussion in 'Diet & Nutrition' started by Joe.Muscle, May 30, 2006.

  1. Joe.Muscle

    Joe.Muscle Active Member

    <div>
    (Dan Moore @ May 31 2006,12:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Way off topic here but, if you are really thinking health and longevity then why correlate healthy living to Body Building and bulking, you would be much better served to be tiny.</div>
    True, So true!
     
  2. bluejacket

    bluejacket New Member

    ill jump back in here

    totz. ive got no scientific info that ive bothered to look up concerning that stuff. i only have my own exper. coming from a very lean background i spent many yrs bulking at various cal surplus levels but usually not terribly clean. the result was fat and muscle gain. a little while back i cleaned up my diet for health purposes and while still trying to bulk it seemed my fat level stayed constant (tough to say at @ 18%). now after a diet down ive begun bulking again this time pretty clean and after 1 cycle i am happy with the results. ive been able to add some size and wgt but have little gain in bf%. for me it seems the substitution of good pro &amp; carbs for the polyunsat., trans fat and simple sugars while maint. cal surplus has not affected muscl. gain and limited the fat gain. as mentioned before i feel way better than when i was bulking the other way.

    perhaps this is only temporary and things will even out as i continue but this is what my exper. has shown so far. eating this way does take time and money but i believe the pros outweigh the cons. others with differant lifestyles, jobs etc would perhaps spend way to much valuable free time preping clean food for a day and in those cases attempting to eat clean most of the time is not realistic.

    also totz im a little confused by your &quot;yo bro&quot; post. in it you mention that eating clean wont help unless he drops the cals at the same time. its my understanding that you (and others here) feel he would only limit fat gain by dropping cals and that the clean eating will play no role. am i off base on that one?

    this is a good topic. i find it interesting to see how everyone approaches things
     
  3. Joe.Muscle

    Joe.Muscle Active Member

    I think lifters in general make it a black/white issue.

    Meaning they think eating clean produces better resutls and eating junk produces worst results, well have you thought about it like this.

    One theory is that when we all decided to get serious about nutrition and eating &quot;clean&quot; we tend to track everything more closely carbs, fat, and most importantly for a bodybuilder protein.

    The benefit of tracking or in other words preparing = results, which makes one believe its the clean eating, when in fact its possible its not the clean eating but the serious tracking attitude.


    As per say when we are not dieting or eating clean, we just eat whatever we want and assume we are getting in enought protein and carbs.

    Just a theory, I know for a lot of my friends and lifting buddies its black or white issue, they either are dieting perfect and want eat any macdonalds at all or its fuc-k the diet and eat anything in site.

    Just a thought???
     
  4. bluejacket

    bluejacket New Member

    good point joe m.
    personally come july 06 ill have 10yrs of food logs (most months anyway) and a few prev aborted attempts. as you can see im a big fan of the log. im still amazed at some of the stuff i used to eat.

    anyway, for most i think the addition of the food log does signal a &quot;more serious&quot; approach to ones diet and therefore like you say better surplus cal intake.
     
  5. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    It's about density guys.

    1 cup of broccoli is about 20 Kcals

    1 slice of medium pzza is about 500 Kcal (depending on toppings).

    Now try and eat 500 Kcal of Broccoli in one sitting, about 25 cups........can you say puke [​IMG].

    Granted most people don't live on broccoli or pizza alone and I do agree that your meals should be balanced and colorful, but in the grand scheme of things it's primarily about calories needing to be in excess. Eating higher density foods makes it a tad more realistic. There are plenty of quality foods that are dense and you don't need to eat at MickeyD's to accomplish it.

    As far as dieting it's the opposite, generally clean eating increases eating of less dense foods therefore reducing calories. If you were to take two people with the exact same BMR and activity level, one eating clean and one eating &quot;dirty&quot; but both eating the same caloric deficit both would lose about the same amount of weight. The one eating &quot;dirty&quot; might need a triple bypass sooner but..........then again maybe not. [​IMG]
     
  6. Fausto

    Fausto HST Expert

    Ok Dan

    Tiny I don't know, but healthy yes, and I have my targets which I will reach, but I am not interested in just becoming a mass monster, rather to get my proportions right!

    If bodybuilding is about becoming a mass monster regardless of your health, then I am not getting into that boat!

    I think there are enough mindless, bloated, gloated monkeys out there as it is! This is supposed to be a sport about the beauty of the proportional body, lately it is about who can grow the largest muscles, regardless of proportion, and by whatever means!

    But somehow I don't think it is, tere are a lot of guys out there doing it and being mindful, miond you I understand the fact that you have to eat really big to grow, but I certainly think it can be done with one's health in mind. IMO. [​IMG]
     
  7. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    <div>
    (Fausto @ Jun. 01 2006,22:16)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Ok Dan

    Tiny I don't know, but healthy yes, and I have my targets which I will reach, but I am not interested in just becoming a mass monster, rather to get my proportions right!</div>
    Excess calories are not good.

    Excess bodymass is not good.
     
  8. mostlyallan

    mostlyallan New Member

    <div>
    (Fausto @ Jun. 01 2006,09:16)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I think there are enough mindless, bloated, gloated monkeys out there as it is! This is supposed to be a sport about the beauty of the proportional body, lately it is about who can grow the largest muscles, regardless of proportion, and by whatever means!</div>
    Rachel McLish (in May's Ironman mag) said pretty much the same thing. Instead of being well defined/proportioned individuals, its coming down to rediculously large protrusions and unsightly vascularity.

    (She's quite hot for her age too!)
     
  9. Fausto

    Fausto HST Expert

    I see I am not beating my hard head agains a solid wall there are others who agree with me, after all we all have diferent tragets and ideas, but i think health is something one should not be prepared to negotiate in exchange for bigger mass.

    C'mon we all would like to get alittle bigger and frankly with HST we defintely can! [​IMG]
     
  10. Joe.Muscle

    Joe.Muscle Active Member

    I knew those Abercrombie and Fitch models were the healthiest....skinny basterds...hehehe [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  11. dkm1987

    dkm1987 New Member

    <div>
    (Fausto @ Jun. 01 2006,06:08)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I see I am not beating my hard head agains a solid wall there are others who agree with me, after all we all have diferent tragets and ideas, but i think health is something one should not be prepared to negotiate in exchange for bigger mass.

    C'mon we all would like to get alittle bigger and frankly with HST we defintely can! [​IMG]</div>
    Don't take what I said the wrong way Fausto, I'm not disagreeing in trying to eat healthy even while trying to gain mass. What I was referring too is, if ones main purpose is to extent longevity and maintain health then bodybuilding isn't the sport that supports this goal.

    Yes, resistance training has benefits but these benefits can be conveyed without adding much mass.

    Secondly the whole &quot;dirty&quot;/&quot;clean&quot; issue in bulking is an oxymoron, if your goal is gaining weight and mass only then your primary concern should be caloric excess irregardless of the source (once your macros have been met), if trying to balance Bodybuiling and health then obviously, as you point out, your goals change and so should your eating habits but understand so will the results, good or bad.
     
  12. Fausto

    Fausto HST Expert

    Dan

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Don't take what I said the wrong way Fausto, I'm not disagreeing in trying to eat healthy even while trying to gain mass. </div>

    It must be my mood today [​IMG] I gotcha! [​IMG]

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">What I was referring too is, if ones main purpose is to extent longevity and maintain health then bodybuilding isn't the sport that supports this goal.</div>

    To an extent buddy...to an extent...give or take a little...I also agree with the oxymoron [​IMG]

    Well, thos are long term goals, mate, I am pretty sure I can handle both, surely I'll n ot get to be a mass monster, but then again never wanted to be one, just to look good...and thanks to HST I'm getting there!
     
  13. Maximuscrates

    Maximuscrates New Member

    I owe you guys. If it wasn't for your help and this HST site I would still be doing high intensity high volume training with little signs of weight gain.

    I should be gaining weight faster with this program than I am but it is because of eating healthy low density foods. I am barely able to get a calorie surplus with all the other stuff I do.

    I am going to begin eating more fatty foods like fries and chips. I will track my calories as I do now. My next cycle on HST should reveal some surprising results.

    Thank you all!

    158lbs-163lbs in 8 weeks of first HST program. Unnoticeable signs of fat gain.
     
  14. mazmonsters

    mazmonsters New Member

    Well, I must agree with Maximuscrates in that we owe a lot of gratitude to everyone here, the help and advice offered is truly a blessing, especially with the honesty and kindness displayed...so thanks to everyone here. With that being said, I still must stick by my original thought, i.e. &quot;To eat as clean as possible is better than to eat whatever you want.&quot; (For me, at least) I experimented yesterday with mixing it up. (By the way, when I say &quot;eating clean&quot; I mean no deep fried foods, no chips, no sugary foods, no butter, no salt. What I don't mean is low-carb or low-fat. I believe in high carb and med. fat [fish oil, olive oil, etc..] and of course protein, that should be obvious)
    Anyway, as I am typing this response, it is 9:42 am. I overslept, my stomach is churning from gas, I feel like I had a few beers last night- I didn't- and I am tired. What happened? Well, aside from eating my normal 3600 highly clean calories, I decided to substitute a few meals with some food I wouldn't normally eat on a weekday. I had 12 fried boneless buffalo wings and I had a large piece of peanut butter pie-cake (which was killer btw [​IMG] .) If a calorie is a calorie and it doesn't matter what goes in as long as you get enough, then we could just eat chicken loaded with sugar all day and we would be good to go. This might work for someone, but for me, I would feel like total crap.
    I know that protein is the muscle building tool, but isn't there some truth that in order for a good anabolic environment to be created, you need to have the vitamin/mineral/fiber/nutrient contents of &quot;good&quot; foods, albeit a lot of them!, to make it happen? I am not sure how the science of it works, but I can sure feel the difference.
    Again, just my two cents guys.
    Take it for what it is.
    Peace.
     
  15. jwbond

    jwbond New Member

    good thread going here. however, i would like to add a bit to it...


    keep in mind that your body will only put on a certain amount of muscle per week (depending on training/substances). any calories injested over that will turn into fat. About 1lb of muscle a week is what natural guys should be shooting for. 1 pund of muscle takes 2,000-2,500 cals to create, while a lb of fat takes 3500cals (not sure if my numbers are completely accurate, as i am going off of memory). Therefore, you only need ~2500 cals over maintenance spread over a week to gain a lb of muscle. This comes to 350 cals a day, not much when you think about it.

    For me, i dont do only 350 cals over maintenance when bulking. Historically I have done about 800-1,000 cals over maintenance, a complete waste when you think about the cutting you will have to do, which will later limit miscle growth. For my next bulk I am going to get down to 9%bf (at about 11% right now). I will then do about 500 cals over maintenance and monitor my gains closely in the mirror and w/ measuring tape.

    In the end, even if you are not worried about health, I wouldn't recommend eating fast food often. You may find that one fast food sandwich will put you well over 500cals over maintenance a day, especially if you plan on eating 5-6 meals. Not to mention, there is better tasting, healthier food out there. Why not go to a local deli for a large sub?




    Little off topic but...does anyone have any recommendations on how to accurately monitor fat gain when bulking? obviously, there is the mirror, but do we have anything more accurate? a method using tape measures? bf scales that actually work? anything?
     
  16. Joe.Muscle

    Joe.Muscle Active Member

    Get you an electronic bodyfat tester, that is hand held. Some people say they are not accurate however mine has always been pretty close. Even if they are not 100% accurate they are true to themselves. so if it says you are 11% and you are really 10% its still going to show if you gain or lose bf accurately.

    As for the calorie is a calorie...as stated before I think a calorie is just a calorie as far as weight loss or gain goes...but is certaintly isn't as far as health goes.

    if all you do is eat 1200 calories a day from chocalte and donuts you are going to lose weight it just that simple. However you will have serious health issues in long haul and lake many vitamins.

    The best way to cut is to get your protein and carbs in from good sources and get you maintenace calories in for your bodyweigtht.

    Then if I am not mistake Bryan recommends calorie deficit of 500 a day. 250 from cardio 250 from foods. [​IMG]
     
  17. Joe.Muscle

    Joe.Muscle Active Member

    OH just for the record guys. Some of you may have seen my my recent pics. I have gone from 187 down to 177 now.

    Well I have done this buy eating fast food once a day, so it can be done.

    My meals normally looks something like this during this time.

    Egg whites and two pieces of wheat toast

    protein bar (snack)

    lunch is Wendys combo # 1 classic single plain with side order of chili...only 400 calories and about 30 grams of protein.

    peanut butter and crackers mid afternoon snack

    then supper is normally some kind of lean meat and rice

    Bedtime 1 small cup of milk with protein bar.

    I shoot to get .7 of my bodyweight in protein.
     
  18. mostlyallan

    mostlyallan New Member

    Ok, I think some may be taking this &quot;a calorie is a calorie&quot; a little to literally. I guess when these guys say a calorie is a calorie, they mean that its not THAT necessary to watch what you're eating while bulking. A diet which consists of fast food is fine as long as you're aware of what that food actually contains. So, you can get away with a wendys or a mcd's everyday whilst still getting your vits and mins from the rest of your daily meals.

    No ones really going to eat a whole packet of castor sugar and a kilo of lard a day, so a calorie really can mean a calorie in terms of what one would realistically eat in a day.

    And is it just me or do you get hyped on the way to McD's but when you actually bite into the food you realise its not all that great. Gets me every time!
     
  19. Joe.Muscle

    Joe.Muscle Active Member

    Mc'ds yeah taste not too good.

    Now wendy's or hardees burger....yummie!

    I have a fast food guide link if anyone wants it...I use it to plan my around my lunch meals.
     
  20. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    Yeah, and when I say I don't eat clean while bulking, I don't mean that I go out and eat the most obviously retarded foods I can find. I just mean that I get a lot of milk, beef and whatnot in my diet. I end up with a lot of fats in my diet, some of my best bulks have had fats hovering around 30-45% of my calorie intake, with over 1 gram of protein per pound.

    Anyway, when it comes to monitoring fat gain, I think the important thing is to make sure you measure it in the same way each time you do it. Use the same method each time, preferrably the same calipers or tape or whatever you use. That way your measurements are at least somewhat consistent.
     

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