Are you experiencing Gains with HST?
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bodyguard
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(vagrant @ Jan. 22 2007,11:31)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I don't think there is ANY end all, be all program.
HST is great, but as I've posted in other threads 5x5 (I'm doing something closer to the old original than the madcow variation though) does share similar principals and as far as weight being moved goes the end result of the progression is about the same although the rate of progression is a little different. I have no experience with max stim so cannot comment on that other than in writing it looks effective too.
When I finish my current 5x5 I'm going to do a true hybrid where I do HST for the beginning, then 5x5 (Starr's method) the rest of the training cycle.
It will look something like this:
Week 1, 2 are HST 15's (2x15)
Week 3, 4 are HST 10's (3x10)
Week 5, 6 are HST 5's (5x5)
Then to keep the progression going
Week 7, 8, 9, 10 will be Starr's 5x5 (ramped sets, HLM progression)
Weeks 11-15 will be 3x3 going as heavy as I can make it to (still ramped sets, HLM progression)
After that will be 5x5 again until I reach my new 3RM as a 5RM, probably 6 weeks. Then will be a well deserved SD prior to starting my cut to look like a ripped up beast at the beach in September. (cutting July-Sept)
If I stop posting, it's because sometime in the program...I died from it.</div>
I have some questions about the 5x5 in your hst programm:
When you have finished 10th do you start the 5x5 with the last with where you have been of the 10ths?
When you do 5x5 can you do every set wtih the same weight?
And, do you ad every week new weight with the 5th?
(vagrant @ Jan. 22 2007,11:31)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I don't think there is ANY end all, be all program.
HST is great, but as I've posted in other threads 5x5 (I'm doing something closer to the old original than the madcow variation though) does share similar principals and as far as weight being moved goes the end result of the progression is about the same although the rate of progression is a little different. I have no experience with max stim so cannot comment on that other than in writing it looks effective too.
When I finish my current 5x5 I'm going to do a true hybrid where I do HST for the beginning, then 5x5 (Starr's method) the rest of the training cycle.
It will look something like this:
Week 1, 2 are HST 15's (2x15)
Week 3, 4 are HST 10's (3x10)
Week 5, 6 are HST 5's (5x5)
Then to keep the progression going
Week 7, 8, 9, 10 will be Starr's 5x5 (ramped sets, HLM progression)
Weeks 11-15 will be 3x3 going as heavy as I can make it to (still ramped sets, HLM progression)
After that will be 5x5 again until I reach my new 3RM as a 5RM, probably 6 weeks. Then will be a well deserved SD prior to starting my cut to look like a ripped up beast at the beach in September. (cutting July-Sept)
If I stop posting, it's because sometime in the program...I died from it.</div>
I have some questions about the 5x5 in your hst programm:
When you have finished 10th do you start the 5x5 with the last with where you have been of the 10ths?
When you do 5x5 can you do every set wtih the same weight?
And, do you ad every week new weight with the 5th?
Everything you need here:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum....15.html
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum....15.html
Nope, no gains here. Did 2 complete cycles perfectly as far as workouts and nutrition. All body measurements were within 1/8 of an inch at the end of 2 cycles compared to the start of cycle number 1. Bodyweight was exactly the same. Bodyfat percentage was exactly the same. Increased calories by about 100 calories each week throughout the cycles. So as far as hypertrophy this program produced none. At least I did not atrophy.
There are humans who at times and for various reasons do not have an increase in weight or lean body mass accompanied by a significant increase in caloric consumption. (This happens in another animals as well). In various experiments with food, drugs, exercise, etc. there a people who are non or low responders and people who are high responders. In this specific case my body did not respond in a measurable manner. This is NOT a complaint. This a statement of the results of the experiment.
The statement that caloric intake was miscalculated is incorrect. While the dietary results of such may seem impossible to some it has happened to others before in humans and non-human animals alike. Each food item was measured precisely. The caloric intake was very easy to measure and control and has been done precisely for decades. Over 2 decades as an adult my body has taken in fewer calories and also a greater number of calories than the several hundred caloric range during the 2 cycles of HST and been measurably bigger at a lower body fat percentage using different weightlifting programs. It so happens for this specific person at this specific time the results were as stated above. Other people who have said they have used the HST program for at least 2 cycles have claimed similar or worse results (perhaps not on this site) than what I experienced.(BTW since this program is designed specifically or mostly for hypertrophy it is interesting many post their performance as opposed to hypertrophy results, not that doing so is a negative.)
Maybe some point in time in the future there will be well-controlled comparisons of the various factors of aesthetic/hypertrophy weight lifting programs. At this time it seems HST may be measurably shown to work for some as far as hypertrophy, but not most. Most of the "well-known" programs for hypertrophy seem to make the same claims. People respond differently to different programs, diets, drugs, etc. I, specifically, just have shown I respond better as far as hypertrophy in a very measurable manner to different programs. No complaints from me in experimenting with HST. No regrets here.
The statement that caloric intake was miscalculated is incorrect. While the dietary results of such may seem impossible to some it has happened to others before in humans and non-human animals alike. Each food item was measured precisely. The caloric intake was very easy to measure and control and has been done precisely for decades. Over 2 decades as an adult my body has taken in fewer calories and also a greater number of calories than the several hundred caloric range during the 2 cycles of HST and been measurably bigger at a lower body fat percentage using different weightlifting programs. It so happens for this specific person at this specific time the results were as stated above. Other people who have said they have used the HST program for at least 2 cycles have claimed similar or worse results (perhaps not on this site) than what I experienced.(BTW since this program is designed specifically or mostly for hypertrophy it is interesting many post their performance as opposed to hypertrophy results, not that doing so is a negative.)
Maybe some point in time in the future there will be well-controlled comparisons of the various factors of aesthetic/hypertrophy weight lifting programs. At this time it seems HST may be measurably shown to work for some as far as hypertrophy, but not most. Most of the "well-known" programs for hypertrophy seem to make the same claims. People respond differently to different programs, diets, drugs, etc. I, specifically, just have shown I respond better as far as hypertrophy in a very measurable manner to different programs. No complaints from me in experimenting with HST. No regrets here.
sorry but i cant agree with this,if your in a surplus and your not gaining,then your not really in a surplus ie you've either miscalculated your maintanance level(easy to do) or you've misjudged the amount of activity you do,ie just walking around moving etc.
skydec1, thanks for the info. Could you provide a few more details please? What was your body weight and bf level at the start of the experiment. What were your macronutrient ratios over the course of the experiment? How did you calculate your BMR?
Have I got this right? You increased cals by 100 each week over the 2 cycles? So, 1st week +100, 2nd week +200, 3rd week +300 etc. compared to starting cal intake?
If I assume you did a full 16 weeks of training over two cycles (plus one or two weeks of SD between cycles) then, by your account, you would have consumed 3,500 total extra cals. over the first cycle and a further 10,000 extra cals over the second cycle.
Also, how many cals did you take in over your period of SD between cycles?
Cheers,
Lol
Have I got this right? You increased cals by 100 each week over the 2 cycles? So, 1st week +100, 2nd week +200, 3rd week +300 etc. compared to starting cal intake?
If I assume you did a full 16 weeks of training over two cycles (plus one or two weeks of SD between cycles) then, by your account, you would have consumed 3,500 total extra cals. over the first cycle and a further 10,000 extra cals over the second cycle.
Also, how many cals did you take in over your period of SD between cycles?
Cheers,
Lol
electric
HST Expert
The values at play here are not constant and difficult to estimate precisely, but saying that either you are eating surplus calories and not gaining weight or eating less then maintenance and gaining is just saying that the lays of Thermodynamics do not apply to the human body. Besides the obvious - not estimating caloric intake or expenditure correctly - the only reasonable explanation is that you are not digesting your food entirely and thus are not absorbing all calories. Although this is very far fetched it already happens with humans with fibers. We do not digest them so we don't get calories from them.
I am not a fanboy claiming you always get good results with HST I am just claiming that if you are not gaining weight (lean or fat) and you are not eating real surplus.
I am not a fanboy claiming you always get good results with HST I am just claiming that if you are not gaining weight (lean or fat) and you are not eating real surplus.
electric makes very good points in the last reply. I have taught, spoken, and written on the laws of thermodynamics within human and animal models. That does not mean I, or any of us know everything, but I do have knowledge of how those ideas work in humans so am able to discuss them somewhat intelligently - for about 2 minutes when the audience begins to fall asleep.LOL. As I stated previously, there can be unique factors at play in this specific situation that are not all well-known and or measurable. A surplus in caloric intake does not automatically equal gains in girth or weight.(I am not even talking about absorption/digestion issues and or fiber intake). Though unusal, what happened as far as caloric intake and no girth or weight gains is not unheard of, nor does it break the laws of thermodynamics, physics, biochemistry,etc. when observing numerous animals in different situations. This is not the proper place to go into all that. Those that are curious enough along with resources and abilities will pursue those questions on their own.
electric's last statement above about "not eating real surplus" may have some merit as far as on this program at this time. Maybe I needed many more calories to be "in surplus" in order to make gains in hypertrophy on this specific program. We will never know. My personal history has not indicated I needed more calories than this to gain in girth or weight. I also am aware of the ideas regarding many humans needing to be in the 10-12% body fat range or above for the body's various systems to promote hypertrophy. I address my situation and some of the reasons below. Many times previously I have eaten far fewer calories and done more "work" and gained more - much more. The experiment over 16 weeks did not produce any significant measurable hypertrophy gains, so it seemed prudent as well as practical for me to end the experiment. I have ideas as to what happened and what could be done differently should I choose to try again. For me it was time to move on to something else.
As to Lol's questions above: If it matters to you I have been around other professional family members since I was born. As well, I have been hands-on, written, spoken and been around this subject matter professionally for decades around the planet with humans and non-humans alike for whatever that may mean to you. The why's are long for here and I can't go into all the details, but can give you some details.(Cheers to Bryan Haycock, electric, and the many others who inform us with their knowledge, opinions, and their experience for free!!!)
Also, the "poll" here is asks one spefic question so I do not want to go far off base here, but I will answer your questions as best I can at this time as this will be my last post.I won't go into the whole BMR thing here because there are several different "metabolic rates" in the human body. To your other questions however, based on experience and numerous other reasons (some above in this post) I started the first cycle and week one of 15's in November 2009 at a caloric intake of 2000 calories/day with 8% BF and 178 pounds, Ht.6' 2/8", wrist 7 inches, ankle 8 6/8 inches. Finished week 8 at 2700 calories/day. Week 9 of SD dropped to 2500/day. Started week 10 at 2600 and ended last week of exercise with weights at 3300/day. Week 18 of SD was 3100/day.Final measurements were taken at end of week 17 and also week 18. No significant change from week 1 to week 18. Oh well. Nutrient ratios were 30-35% protein/65-70% fat (had 4 grams of carbs per day, save about 4 feeds with higher carb intake). Would a different ratio have made a difference? Perhaps. History had shown different ratios to be a negative for hypertrophy and lbm with me as an individual.
As I (and electric) point out there are a variety of factors at play. This ratio was used (along with caloric values) because tested history has shown that to be the best ratio by far for me as an individual to make gains in hypertrophy (and the so-called "healthy" ranges such as in blood work and also aesthetics). The same can be said for humans I have worked with and studied, as well as many other species of mammals. Other ratios seem to "work" well for other people. They may be optimum. Maybe not. I have very detailed first-hand knowledge of my long time live-in girlfriend's diet. Her diet is about the same as mine, just fewer calories and she has always been super lean and healthy as well. Your results may vary. If it matters to you Lol, I have never taken steroids. My highest weight was at the age of 22. 196 lbs. at about 6-7% BF when I sat in college classes or sat while studying during more time of the day, but was probably burning more calories the rest of the day than now. Most of my adult life I have been at 184-188 lbs. in the 6-8% bf range with gaining or maintenance calories being less than the general bodyweight x18 or more often used as a starting point by others. My observation and experience fall more in line with ideas of calories based on height. But they are just general guesses as a place to start.
Also Lol - Since I finished HST I have used a significantly different program and and my waist measurement has gone down as has my bodyfat % with increases in chest, thigh, and hip measurements while taking in about 1800-2400 calories/day. Nutrient ratios about the same as above paragraph. For what its worth to you Lol, I have never grown on the amount of volume in this program. For me the volume is "low" and all the workouts extremely easy. We could go on and on about what happened in my HST experiment, but I am confident each person is far more interested in their own experiments and this site better served to move forward beyond my invidual case and experiences with others. Next.
This may have been long, but will be my last post. I really just wanted to share my results and experience with HST. Do with that what you can. Best of luck to you all.
electric's last statement above about "not eating real surplus" may have some merit as far as on this program at this time. Maybe I needed many more calories to be "in surplus" in order to make gains in hypertrophy on this specific program. We will never know. My personal history has not indicated I needed more calories than this to gain in girth or weight. I also am aware of the ideas regarding many humans needing to be in the 10-12% body fat range or above for the body's various systems to promote hypertrophy. I address my situation and some of the reasons below. Many times previously I have eaten far fewer calories and done more "work" and gained more - much more. The experiment over 16 weeks did not produce any significant measurable hypertrophy gains, so it seemed prudent as well as practical for me to end the experiment. I have ideas as to what happened and what could be done differently should I choose to try again. For me it was time to move on to something else.
As to Lol's questions above: If it matters to you I have been around other professional family members since I was born. As well, I have been hands-on, written, spoken and been around this subject matter professionally for decades around the planet with humans and non-humans alike for whatever that may mean to you. The why's are long for here and I can't go into all the details, but can give you some details.(Cheers to Bryan Haycock, electric, and the many others who inform us with their knowledge, opinions, and their experience for free!!!)
Also, the "poll" here is asks one spefic question so I do not want to go far off base here, but I will answer your questions as best I can at this time as this will be my last post.I won't go into the whole BMR thing here because there are several different "metabolic rates" in the human body. To your other questions however, based on experience and numerous other reasons (some above in this post) I started the first cycle and week one of 15's in November 2009 at a caloric intake of 2000 calories/day with 8% BF and 178 pounds, Ht.6' 2/8", wrist 7 inches, ankle 8 6/8 inches. Finished week 8 at 2700 calories/day. Week 9 of SD dropped to 2500/day. Started week 10 at 2600 and ended last week of exercise with weights at 3300/day. Week 18 of SD was 3100/day.Final measurements were taken at end of week 17 and also week 18. No significant change from week 1 to week 18. Oh well. Nutrient ratios were 30-35% protein/65-70% fat (had 4 grams of carbs per day, save about 4 feeds with higher carb intake). Would a different ratio have made a difference? Perhaps. History had shown different ratios to be a negative for hypertrophy and lbm with me as an individual.
As I (and electric) point out there are a variety of factors at play. This ratio was used (along with caloric values) because tested history has shown that to be the best ratio by far for me as an individual to make gains in hypertrophy (and the so-called "healthy" ranges such as in blood work and also aesthetics). The same can be said for humans I have worked with and studied, as well as many other species of mammals. Other ratios seem to "work" well for other people. They may be optimum. Maybe not. I have very detailed first-hand knowledge of my long time live-in girlfriend's diet. Her diet is about the same as mine, just fewer calories and she has always been super lean and healthy as well. Your results may vary. If it matters to you Lol, I have never taken steroids. My highest weight was at the age of 22. 196 lbs. at about 6-7% BF when I sat in college classes or sat while studying during more time of the day, but was probably burning more calories the rest of the day than now. Most of my adult life I have been at 184-188 lbs. in the 6-8% bf range with gaining or maintenance calories being less than the general bodyweight x18 or more often used as a starting point by others. My observation and experience fall more in line with ideas of calories based on height. But they are just general guesses as a place to start.
Also Lol - Since I finished HST I have used a significantly different program and and my waist measurement has gone down as has my bodyfat % with increases in chest, thigh, and hip measurements while taking in about 1800-2400 calories/day. Nutrient ratios about the same as above paragraph. For what its worth to you Lol, I have never grown on the amount of volume in this program. For me the volume is "low" and all the workouts extremely easy. We could go on and on about what happened in my HST experiment, but I am confident each person is far more interested in their own experiments and this site better served to move forward beyond my invidual case and experiences with others. Next.
This may have been long, but will be my last post. I really just wanted to share my results and experience with HST. Do with that what you can. Best of luck to you all.
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I think skydec1 just provided the main reason for his failure to gain over two cycles of HST (see emboldened section). It seems fairly apparent to me that, aside from any dietary issues, little to no growth stimulus was created over the two cycles.
As far as cals go, I can only assume that all the extra cals taken in over the course of the two cycles were not in fact placing skydec1 in a hyper-caloric state, as evidenced by his complete lack of any gains, regardless of composition (Yes, I have read and heard evidence that it is possible to consume what would seem to be above-maintenance cals only to find that the body's systems react to maintain stasis, though this is not what usually happens in most people. If it happened to me I would continue to increase cals until I gained something or it became too expensive/time-consuming to continue to do so. That's just me though.
)Seems a shame to me that someone so good at keeping track of everything didn't chime in after getting zero results from their first cycle. I think there are plenty of folks here who could have helped make the second cycle a successful one (apparently possible going by post-HST results).
The following info taken from the HST FAQs would no doubt have helped:
How many sets and how to determine it
Here are a couple of relevant quotes from this FAQ post:
This might have helped too:
Bryan; Optimising HST said:
Optimising HST - Tweaking
I think there's some relevant info from Lyle here too:
Diet & Nutrition - Comments by Lyle
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so you used something like a CKD diet?
I used this diet previously on a basic 4 day split routine and gained absolutly no size whatsoever while on CKD, i changed it up to the same daily calorie intake with carbs around 40% and gained size. Maybe its just me but no carbs for me equals no gains.