Argument: Losing fat AND gaining muscle

Discussion in 'Diet & Nutrition' started by mostlyallan, May 23, 2006.

  1. mostlyallan

    mostlyallan New Member

    Ok, so I already know that its not the best idea to try and do both at the same time, but I was checking a board yesterday where they were saying that they do it without problem (albeit over a period of say 15 months).

    The argument revolved around the use of carbs and protein.

    My thought was that in order to build muscle you need protein. But if you're trying to create a calorie deficit, and thus ingesting probably less carbs, the shortage in carbs will be offset by production of glucose from protein available. Only if there is insufficient protein and carbs (ignoring ingested fat to keep it simple) will the body hit fat stores for fuel. Is this correct? Or would the body prioritise muscle and use up the protein availble to repair that and THEN is theres any left give it up for glucose production?

    (Or none of the above?)
     
  2. xahrx

    xahrx New Member

    There's a couple studies posted over at anabolicminds where people are discussing this, or sort of. Basically a study or two was posted that indicated that low intensity cardio post strength training preferentially burns fat, but only so long as carbs are low to nonexistant for fuel. Few others there comparing HIIT to slow steady state cardio, etc.

    My guess is you'll find some evidence telling you it's possible, and some evidence saying it's not. As well, you'll find some people saying they've done it and some saying it's hard if not impossible, but then unless those claiming they've done it have some kind of reasonable documentation of how they did it and evidence, such as BF% and weight measurements over a period of time, they may as well have been eating slightly below maintainance and just maintained a decent LBM while losing fat and interpretted it as gaining muscle while losing fat.

    And of course with an effective supplement regimen, read steroids, it's likely possible because of your body's altered chemistry. Bottom line though is who honestly cares? If it's possible it's probably very annoying to keep your diet and training in line enough to accomplish both ends simultaneously, and likely both goals are compromised compared to what would be possible if you concentrated on one at a time.
     
  3. NoMercy

    NoMercy New Member

    I thing that muscle is not priority if there is a deficit in calories intake : It will use is proper proteins and reserves to repair itself and become in a catabolic stat.

    That why I think both diet and bulk are not very good if you want to gain muscle...

    However there is a some experiences that say it is possible to grow and diet.

    To finich my reply , I think that a meticulous calories intake with low and essential fatty acids is the better solution if someone want gain muscle AND lose fat . With a good amount of proteins and carbs : It is possible.

    It's my point of view !
     
  4. jwbond

    jwbond New Member

    from all i have read/my experience it is not possible. however, there is a reason why so many believe it is...

    it IS possible to gain strength while cutting (expescially for newbs). however putting on measurable lbm is not possible. people think they increase lbm and lower fat, but the case is usually one of the following:

    -the loss of fat makes their muscle look bigger even though they are the same size or smaller than before
    -a gain in lbm increases their fat to lbm ratio, in effect lowering their bf%, but not reducing bodyfat


    i have nothing scientific to back this up.
     
  5. <div>
    (NeeBone @ May 23 2006,09:24)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Ok, so I already know that its not the best idea to try and do both at the same time, but I was checking a board yesterday where they were saying that they do it without problem (albeit over a period of say 15 months).

    The argument revolved around the use of carbs and protein.

    My thought was that in order to build muscle you need protein. But if you're trying to create a calorie deficit, and thus ingesting probably less carbs, the shortage in carbs will be offset by production of glucose from protein available. Only if there is insufficient protein and carbs (ignoring ingested fat to keep it simple) will the body hit fat stores for fuel. Is this correct? Or would the body prioritise muscle and use up the protein availble to repair that and THEN is theres any left give it up for glucose production?

    (Or none of the above?)</div>
    With proper timing of carbs and some cardio, and the tiny caloric deficiancy its quite possible. you see athletes do it every day.
    But not anything like a god bulk and cutting. The reason is as mentioned, the chemistry (hehe, what isnt chemistry). For example you wont be burning big amounts of ffa`s unless the body recognizes that there is a starvation going on. it wont even realese them into the the blood stream for long enough time to burn them (unless you do the steady rate cardio stuff after lifting). The insulin is a big factor here, and carbs give the biggest insulin spike.

    Insulin makes the fat cells absorb stuff and make you fatter, and it will make your muscles absorb carbs that inhibits the muscle`s ability to burn fat. If you drop the proteins, there wont be enough for protein synthesis, the deficit in proteins will be bigger when you reduse carbs. Since the proteins will be used to create clucose (for the brain). But enough dietary proteins will provide the clucose need. And save most of your own.
     
  6. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    Most people who do it over a 15month period are not doing it at the same time, they are bulking and cutting over that time period, leading to net gains in muscle and net losses of fat.

    You can lose fat at the same time as gaining muscle.

    A few of main provisions

    1) Noob
    2) Fat (&gt;15%)
    3) extremely slow progress
     
  7. mostlyallan

    mostlyallan New Member

    I pretty much thought what you guys have been saying - tho some people just think they're right especially when &quot;they've done it&quot;.

    I pretty much gave up on the thread after some guy said he lost fat while gaining muscle because his weight went up and bf% went down. Duh, you've changed the RATIO of fat to muscle - not lost fat! I guess maths wasnt their strong point. But yeh, I questioned the 15 month thing and was informed that they calculated their nutritional needs and then ate the required cals - adjusting as bodyweight changed (baring in mind they were trying to lose weight whilst slowoly gaining muscle).

    Also, as far as preferred energy for the body - I was of the opinion that the body prefers carbs, protein and then fat in that order for fuel (also read it in a book by bompa &amp; lorenzo - serious trength training). Anyway, my brother has copy of ironman magazine (dont ask) and it mentions carbs THEN fat then protein whilst it was explaining the role of sugars in the body. I assumed it must have been an editorial mistake on ironmans part (or they're just wrong).

    The guys on the other boards argued the weight gain/fat loss thing with respect to buring order aswell.
     
  8. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    It's just not very efficient. I would be willing to bet you could take a guy doing this, and a guy doing standard bulking/cutting cycles, and after 15 months, the second guy will have more muscle mass and likely be leaner.
     
  9. BIZ

    BIZ New Member

    In my experience working with myself, athletes, bodybuilders, and recreational exercisers, it is possible to gain muscle while losing fat (to a point, as Aaron mentioned, you can't be 10% bodyfat and expect to bulk up while losing more bodyfat... sans drugs). Unless I have a client who absolutely cannot do sprint training due to health or endurance goals, that is the mode of anaerobic/semi-aerobic training I have them do. In conjuction with a decent, or even not so decent diet (a college athlete eats a lot of cheap, free supplements loaded with sugar), sprint training has been the most effective way for my guys to lose bodyfat gradually, while at worst maintaining current lbm. If I can cut a guy up and he doesn't lose weight (or very little), then I feel justified in using this approach and it hasn't failed YET. BUT.....these guys (some gals) are not average joe's usually, meaning they are athletes or bodybuilders who already have decent physiques and great genetics, so I cannot generalize my experiences to everyone.
     
  10. adb1x1

    adb1x1 Member

    Biz,
    Sprints for cardio? Sounds interesting. I assume this is done in intervals with rest between rather than long sessions (like a lot of cardio is done)?
     
  11. colby2152

    colby2152 New Member

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Ok, so I already know that its not the best idea to try and do both at the same time, but I was checking a board yesterday where they were saying that they do it without problem (albeit over a period of say 15 months).</div>

    Chimed in here late on this one. I have no comments about the carb/fat intake, but you can lose fat and gain muscle over a LONG period of time by doing a slow bulk (200-300 cal above maintenace)

    Just ask O&amp;G
     
  12. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    <div>
    (colby2152 @ May 26 2006,11:04)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Chimed in here late on this one.  I have no comments about the carb/fat intake, but you can lose fat and gain muscle over a LONG period of time by doing a slow bulk (200-300 cal above maintenace)

    Just ask O&amp;G</div>
    now lets see him do it without HRT...

    [​IMG]
     
  13. noobie

    noobie New Member

    Aaron any idea on carbolin 19? hear lots of things over at t-nation saying how it can help someone &quot;lean towards leaness&quot; overall. They claim that it will help one lose fat and gain muscle slowly over months/years. Is this all hype? BS? worth the money?

    pzhang
     
  14. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    Hype

    lotsa claims

    no substance
     
  15. BIZ

    BIZ New Member

    <div>
    (adb1x1 @ May 25 2006,17:10)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Biz,
     Sprints for cardio? Sounds interesting. I assume this is done in intervals with rest between rather than long sessions (like a lot of cardio is done)?</div>
    If they are a relative beginner to this type of training, then I start them off with 4, 200m sprints (~25-30 seconds) with a 2-3 minute rest between sprints. We progress to doing 8 sprints with rest being the same. As they are able to do 8 sprints, then we start to decrease the rest periods until they are ~30 seconds between sprints (or 10 seconds if they are capapble of clearing lactic acid quick enough). Progression from this point on usually involves either doing a few more sprints, or adding resistance through use of a slight incline or moving them over to stair sprints. Their is some research that suggests that sprint training (intervals) can have a considerable impact on VO2 max and resting heart rate if enough sprints are performed (at least 8). The effect on metabolism is significant when compared to steady state aerobic training and the anaerobic nature of sprints helps to spare muscle if nutrition is adequate compared to long bouts of aerobics.
     
  16. Tom Treutlein

    Tom Treutlein New Member

    <div>
    (Aaron_F @ May 25 2006,18:07)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
    (colby2152 @ May 26 2006,11:04)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Chimed in here late on this one. I have no comments about the carb/fat intake, but you can lose fat and gain muscle over a LONG period of time by doing a slow bulk (200-300 cal above maintenace)

    Just ask O&amp;G</div>
    now lets see him do it without HRT...

    [​IMG]</div>
    You think O&amp;G only made the progress he did due to HRT? Didn't get just put his T levels back into the normal range?
     
  17. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    So?

    I said, lets see him do it without HRT.

    Or do you believe that returning levels to high normal does nothing?
     
  18. Tom Treutlein

    Tom Treutlein New Member

    <div>
    (Aaron_F @ May 29 2006,05:20)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So?

    I said, lets see him do it without HRT.

    Or do you believe that returning levels to high normal does nothing?</div>
    Well, why couldn't a person have his results without high-normal levels of test? All he did was eat slightly over maintenance.
     
  19. Aaron_F

    Aaron_F New Member

    we were not talking about other people, we were talking about o&amp;g

    A lot of people with lower test will have ample trouble gaining muscle to start with, which is why jebus invented testosterone enathanate
     
  20. BIZ

    BIZ New Member

    <div>
    (Aaron_F @ May 29 2006,15:32)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">...which is why jebus invented testosterone enathanate</div>
    Funny, I'll have to steal it and use it. [​IMG]
     

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