Biceps during deadlifts.

Q

QuantumPositron

New Member
During a deadlift, which we have all done, the force of the weight is transfered through our arms into the rest of our structure. How is it that our arm flexors, which are at their greatest stretch and hence lowest strength, can bear the load?

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Yeah, you might say, 'it takes more than 600 lbs. to...pull your joints apart'.
I'd also say that forearms get a little static work with deads unless you cheat with straps like me.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Because there is no arm flexion.</div>

There's only a few ways that force can be transmitted: through interlocked bones, through ligaments, and through muscles and their appropriate tendons. I think there is arm flexion when we deadlift, because if there isn't then any load bearing ligaments would come apart. As for bones, I don't know. I'll have to look at the anatomy of the elbow joint. I think the reason the biceps can handle the load may be that the arm flexion that does occur is very very slight and this means there is very little torque. Here is the torque from deadlifting 400lbs with a lever arm of 1/4 of an inch:

400 lbs * 0.25 in = 100 foot-inches which is 8.3 foot-pounds, which is 4.15 ft-lbs per bicep.

For comparison, lets say you curl a 120 lb barbell to the midpoint where your elbows are bent at 90 degrees. For a person of reasonable height the lever arm is about 10 inches. Here is the torque at that position:

120 lbs * 10 in = 1,200 foot-inches which is 100 foot-pounds, which is 50 ft-lbs per bicep.

If you took a 10 lb barbell and curled it to the same position as above, you would have 8.3 ft-lbs of torque acting on your biceps. So clearly, the biceps can handle the load, at least at 90 degrees.

This occured to me last night when I was thinking about the question myself. I was sort of hoping that at some point in my deadlifting future I could just rely on deads to keep my biceps strong. Wishful thinking. At the same time I am still left wondering about people writing that so-and-so's biceps got torn because he was deadlifting with an underhand grip.

I have to use straps too Quad. I dead with a snatch grip and with newb gains my grip strength cannot keep up. Dave Tate of Westside stated in a T-nation article that when it comes to a failed grip on deads he has seen very little in the way of training that can help. Yet, there are these Captains of Crush people who close 200 lb grippers. I'm not sure where the truth lies on this one. I'll be reading on it some more soon. The last deadlift workout I did was 2 weeks ago (stopped all lifts that stimulate upper traps for shoulder rehab). My wrists hurt the next day, and not in a good way. Its disconcerting because I like deadlifting a whole heck of a lot, and because I was about to get hooks instead - I keep having to rewrap my straps during my M-time.
 
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(QuantumPositron @ Mar. 10 2008,05:37)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">This occured to me last night when I was thinking about the question myself.  I was sort of hoping that at some point in my deadlifting future I could just rely on deads to keep my biceps strong.  Wishful thinking.  At the same time I am still left wondering about people writing that so-and-so's biceps got torn because he was deadlifting with an underhand grip.

I have to use straps too Quad.  I dead with a snatch grip and with newb gains my grip strength cannot keep up.  Dave Tate of Westside stated in a T-nation article that when it comes to a failed grip on deads he has seen very little in the way of training that can help.  Yet, there are these Captains of Crush people who close 200 lb grippers. I'm not sure where the truth lies on this one. I'll be reading  on it some more soon. The last deadlift workout I did was 2 weeks ago (stopped all lifts that stimulate upper traps for shoulder rehab).  My wrists hurt the next day, and not in a good way.  Its disconcerting because I like deadlifting a whole heck of a lot, and because I was about to get hooks instead - I keep having to rewrap my straps during my M-time.</div>
The distal biceps muscle to tendon region on the supinated hand is the area that usually tears. The two tendons at the proximal end of the biceps seem to be stronger than the single insertion on the radial tuberosity on the radius. My suspicion is that these biceps tears usually only occur when max lifts are attempted or if the arms are not fully straightened at the start of the lift. I think it's pretty rare. I don't think I have read of a case where it occurred if the hands were pronated.

Dave Tate is in a different league to me but grip training helped my deadlift hugely. I never need straps to lift my max attempts for deads or rack pulls so my grip now outstrips my deadlift strength. CoC grippers definitely help as does holding on to heavy bars.

If you don't want to use a reverse grip then a normal hook grip can be used to do heavy deads although your thumbs will take a beating until they have toughened up.

Don't use straps that 'strangle' your wrists if they give you trouble (they did me). Just use a length of leather belt for each strap and wrap like so:

One-handed-strap-wrap.jpg


Also, check out the grip strength thread on the SST forum if you haven't already.
 
I use the VersaGripps for shrugs and deads, and hooks for MS when I do it. The hooks are perfect for the one-rep, but not really necessary. I can pull a max empty handed, but can't hold it long. I just use the wraps for sets.
Being as the grip is really made by the forearms as much as anything, it makes sense to train them for grip...but I've read that it doens't work as well as grippers, as testified by Lol. I have untrained 14&quot; forearms and my grip sux. I truly wonder if my grip would improve if I trained them, but I'm not going to compete after all, so it's not a priority.
Oh, and after switching to Versagripps, I've never used a strap since - they work almost as quick as a hook, and they don't slip. Ever.
 
Thanks for your tutorial Lol. I'll give it a try tommorrow morning. I'll also look at getting some Versagrips. A question though: how are they superior to hooks? In the picture at Amazon.com it looks like there is some padding around the wrist portion?

I haven't considered the hook grip for deads. In fact I sort of didn't think of it at all. Can you use hook grip with straps and/or hooks?

I use a reverse grip. &quot;Snatch grip&quot;, if you're not familiar with the term, is from Oly lifting and means a certain finger (I think the middle finger) is on the smooth ring. In my mind it just means wide grip, since my index fingers are on the far side of the smooth rings on an Olympic bar. When I am at the bottom of a deadlift my hips are almost in the same horizontal line with my knees. Using a wide (snatch) grip is said to be more stimulating for the back in general. It has really built up my middle and upper traps faster than rows. Before I stopped I could see the seperation between the upper and middle fibers of my traps, and I had only been doing it for 7 weeks. After deadlift workouts I don't feel anything until around 1 and 1/2 hours later and then some really intense soreness comes on along the mid traps where they originate and insert. I usually end up applying a topical muscle ache cream. I am used to soreness in quads, hams, glutes, pecs, and lats, even abs (I tend not to get sore in my shoulders or arms). But this soreness is one of a kind.
 
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(QuantumPositron @ Mar. 11 2008,05:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I haven't considered the hook grip for deads.  In fact I sort of didn't think of it at all.  Can you use hook grip with straps and/or hooks?

I use a reverse grip.  &quot;Snatch grip&quot;, if you're not familiar with the term, is from Oly lifting and means a certain finger (I think the middle finger) is on the smooth ring.  In my mind it just means wide grip, since my index fingers are on the far side of the smooth rings on an Olympic bar.</div>
I wouldn't suggest trying to use a hook grip along with straps or any other grip aid; I don't see the point. If you work on your hook grip and you will be able to lift a lot more weight than a regular grip will allow. Then you can use a reverse grip, straps etc. for just your heaviest deads.

If you are going to use a wide grip, à la the snatch, then you should definitely give a hook grip a try for a month or so.

Aside from the advantage of improved grip strength, if you refrain from using grip aids you will also find your hands will toughen up. A hook grip is hard on your thumbs for a while so don't jump straight in to doing your heaviest sets this way (unless you find it isn't a problem).

When shrugging, I use straps for all my work sets as the loads are generally as heavy, or heavier, than my deads and I'm not getting a chance to reset my grip between reps. (If you did Max-Stim shrugs that would be different.) I still think it makes sense to use a regular grip for shrugs - with straps if necessary - rather than a reverse grip, to reduce the chance of arm or shoulder injury on what would be the supinated hand side.

The great thing about simple straps is that all you need to use to make some is an old leather belt cut in half. That's it! Much cheaper than fancy stuff and just as effective.
 
With the hook grip, grip is not a problem for me. My weak link is my back now. I dont know if this is normal, but it took me a while for my thumbs to get used to the hook grip. At first anything above 300lbs was murder and I would occasionally have to use a standard double overhand grip. Now I seem to be able to stand the pain more even though it still hurts like hell at times. The inside of my thumbs feels like worn hard leather now though. I have never used a strap and probably wont need to unless I start doing rack pulls or power shrugs.

The snatch grip puts a lot of pressure on the pinky and ring finger, the weakest fingers. The hook grip is almost required.

Also Lol it looks like your strap guide shows the strap a tad high. You want the strap to be around the hand (on the metacarpals), not the wrist.
 
bgates: yeah I think you are right, it does look a little high in the pics. That's what comes of trying to hold a camera and take a photo in my right hand hand while attempting to wrap a strap with my left. As you can see, the strap I used is a little on the short side which didn't help either.
 
My gym has a shrug machine. So basically it's a hammer strength machine, you can sit or stand, and load the plates on both sides. The grip would be considered neutral I guess, thumbs facing forward. Is this dangerous for biceps? In this position it is easy to see how the biceps could get involved, especially on lower loads.
 
solfsun, neutral grip is just fine. There's nothing wrong with the biceps being involved (in fact, they have to be to stabilise the forces on the arms) it's just that with a reverse grip the loads are not distributed evenly through the muscles of each arm (or shoulders) so with really heavy loads or max attempts there is a chance of injury at the weakest point in the chain.
 
Comparing hooks to versagripps, I'd say the hooks are quicker, but are a bulge in the hand, whereas the versa's are very comfortable and well padded. And sticky.
Didn't some guy pull his thumb out of joint using the hook grip a while back? That sounds scary to me.
 
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(quadancer @ Mar. 12 2008,01:06)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Didn't some guy pull his thumb out of joint using the hook grip a while back? That sounds scary to me.</div>
I'm sure that must have happened. Some have definitely ripped the flesh off around the thumb nail which is why a lot of lifters tape their thumbs. However, the amount of hook grip I use is hardly anything compared to that of an Oly lifter in training so I suppose that injury is much less likely.

Even after having used a hook grip for a while now and gradually toughening up my thumbs, it's still pretty uncomfortable to do with heavy weights and so it won't be to everyone's liking.
 
Since we're talking about shrugs, I thought I'd post an article series on T-nation specifically about shrugging. I have read the first part and found the scientific content to be really good. The author goes into great detail of what seems like such a simple lift: acute anatomy and kinesiology, the importance of proper posture, breathing tempo and pattern to provide a stable environment for the joints, etc. Lifters that have a scientific bent and are interested in upper trap development will find this article golden. QuantumPositron gives it two thumbs up.

Shrug Science Part 1.

Shrug Science Part 2.
 
Interesting stuff, if not a bit lengthy. I intend to add scapular retraction to my pulls.
I wonder why he didn't even hit on BB shrugs? Unless I missed it when my eyes glazed over.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I wonder why he didn't even hit on BB shrugs? </div>

Never heard of them. I've seen people do shrugs where they roll their shoulders. I think I saw that in a Weider mag when I was a teen. Years later I saw it written that this kind of thing can cause injuries, and that it was not optimal for muscle building. I found a book on Amazon.com once:

Kelso's Shrug Book.

Its like 10 bucks.

I've been reading Poliquin lately, here's what he had to say about shrugs, from T-nation.com:

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> The Best Trap Exercises

Q: Every bodybuilder I know does shrugs for traps, but I read that the explosive Olympic-style lifts are actually better. Which is it?

A: For ultimate trap development, use both. The thing with barbell shrugs though, is that most people limit their range of motion. If you're going to do shrugs, it's best to do them with a dumbbell one arm at a time so the trap can have a few inches more range. Do three weeks of that, then alternate it with an Olympic-style lift such as power cleans or power snatch. </div>

Range of motion comes up often in his bodybuilding thinking.

The two-part shrug series on T-nation is worth the time to read it, IMO. Heck, sometimes I'll skip through all but the last sentence of an abstract. That's how I know I'm not in the mood to read.
 
How many people actually need to target the upper traps directly though? Seems like rows, deadlifts, etc work them quite thoroughly. I do power shrugs occasionally but only for fun and to try and maybe develop some more explosiveness.
 
I use a barbell doing power shrugs with a lot of weight and a lot of reps per set (8-20). According to the articles I'd be pulling from the front to my detriment, but it hasn't bothered me yet. And I recall they advocated using a low pulley in front of you with the stirrups - a movement just like the barbell it seems. Hm.
I'm just too tired to read it all again right now.
I think if you can grow traps without shrugs, more power to you. I couldn't.
 
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