Cures for back pain?

quadancer

New Member
After checking out the Dr. John Sarno phychological stuff, I decided that hypnosis and personal mantras or whatever weren't going to fix my flattened #4 lumbar, but then I saw this other link and checked it out:
http://www.beatingbackpain.com/default.htm

I dunno guys, this guy is sounding like science to me, advocating diet and certain exersizes for the back, but I'm certain he's written a novel sized book with five or so exersizes and a couple of things to eat and not eat to heal the spinal problems. For $25 bucks. Well, that is the price of ONE chiropractor visit and unless someone tells me his "secrets", I'm tempted to blow the dough.
 
He didn't give much away in the advertisement. However, it looks like another take on the old idea from the '60s or '70s that back pain is mostly psychological. Get rid of the tension and fear that you are going to hurt and you stop hurting.

The idea is that you have tension and you hurt. Then you see a doc and find out that you have a herniated disk or whatever, now you have fear of more pain and besides you are supposed to hurt and expect it. So what does the body do? It hurts.

I believe that to some extent. But there are just some injuries that are simply going to hurt no matter what your mental state.

From what you've described, good form in the gym, good stretching techniques, and a good relationship with a DO or DC sounds like a good treatment plan.

Biofeedback can teach you how to control and live with the pain, but not make it really go away. That's what the doc tells me I do, but I don't know how I do it. I just know that I can somehow tune it out or switch it off so that although the sensation is the same, I can ignore it so that it doesn't control me.

If I ever figure out how I do it I'll teach the whole world for free and run the pharmaceutical companies out of business.
 
Welllll...this one part he showed some of the supporting musculature and talked about the lesser known muscles and using exersize to strengthen them...it was a lot like Steve's post about increasing your bench - by strengthening your rotator cuff muscles using teenytiny d/b's. And we've always heard of guys with bad backs having weak abs. So I presume there may be some validity to this guy's angle.

If I could just pronounce his name...
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(quadancer @ Dec. 04 2006,22:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">After checking out the Dr. John Sarno phychological stuff, I decided that hypnosis and personal mantras or whatever weren't going to fix my flattened #4 lumbar, but then I saw this other link and checked it out:
http://www.beatingbackpain.com/default.htm

I dunno guys, this guy is sounding like science to me, advocating diet and certain exersizes for the back, but I'm certain he's written a novel sized book with five or so exersizes and a couple of things to eat and not eat to heal the spinal problems. For $25 bucks. Well, that is the price of ONE chiropractor visit and unless someone tells me his &quot;secrets&quot;, I'm tempted to blow the dough.</div>
ewwwwwww...i hate the format of that website. It has the same template as all those other BS websites that spammers send out. Makes me very suspicious

good luck
 
Benni Magnusson recommends deadlifting for getting rid of back pain. He says &quot;deadlift makes the pain go away.&quot;
 
Your right for 25 bucks thats better than my chiropractor.

And I have commented on this in another thread.

But when I leave he chiropractor I feel like a million bucks. I feel like my spine is reborn and I have grown and inch. I dont feel compressed at all..........................however 2 or 4 days later I feel right back tight again.

Going to the chiro for me as proven to make you feel better yet its addictive and it seems the more I get my back and neck popped the more I want it done and the broker I get !!! From spending all my damn $$$$
 
If it's exercises, it could certainly be worth a try.

I do agree too that deadlifting can help back pain. My problem with that is I deadlift and my back feels good so I deadlift some more, and some more, and some more...then at some point I do too much and get hurt. Same thing with squats and my hips. Overdid the squatting one workout then the next time, boom - injured for a month from a 120lb warmup set. The time before that it was BOR on the workout following a &quot;feel good&quot; deadlift workout.

My wife's doc did tell her that if she does exercises to strengthen the psosas and piriformis muscles (I may have misspelled those badly) that her back pain would improve. She can't deadlift so I have her simulate them using a seated row cable machine but going through the DL ROM while seated. The combination of his exercises and her fake deads seems to have helped her a great deal.
 
&quot;healing back pain&quot; by Dr. John E. Sarno is @ 13 dollars I think. Very worth it, trust me. Just get it at the library for free. Quad, it's a very easy can't put down read. I used to think about my L5 and L4 all the time. The mere mention of the word disc would hobble me for the next 2 hours.
the internet stuff on Sarno is not fair for what is in the book.
joe muscle is very in tune to what is going on w/ the placebo effect of the chioroprator. If anything going to the chiropractor is more of a mind game than anything else. He/she can twist ya, bend ya, pop ya, but that does nothing for a disc.
What have you got to lose by reading the book? except your back pain and fear of it ever returning!
Read it and expel yourself from the &quot;bad back club&quot; for good!
 
Sarno, is that the old dude with the old book called &quot;mind over back pain&quot; or something like that which calls most back pain TMS?
 
Yes he is. And I asked Chickeneater in the other thread where he mentioned the guy about the methodology and hey, you didn't give me an answer. My question was would his psychology and hypnosis help a flattened disc? I have my Xrays. This thing is NOT in my mind!!! I've lived with pain for over 30 years; chiropractic has helped, but like Joe, it keeps you coming back and not healing in any permanent way. (at least not for him and I)
Like Steve, I am suspicious of the website, as he's really trying hard to convince us that he has the Holy Grail. I hate that hardsell attitude, but I also think it may be that he's got what I said: a few exersizes and some diet do's and dont's, and he wants to pump it up like as if he's written a medical journal or something.
Endpoint: if it actually would work, it would dang sure be worth the money! I WILL be doing the rotator exersizes because I've known Steve a while and he's not a liar, and has no interests outside of actually helping people.
Interesting thing about the deads: I hadn't heard that they were good for the back!
 
I've done quite a bit of study into postural training, and for lower back problems is usually due to weaknesses in the core stability muscles in the back and abominal region. The main core stability muscles are the multifidus (below the erector spinae), transversus abdominis, the diaphragm, the pelvic floor and the deep obliques (all below the rectus abdominis/obliques).

I include about 10mins of core stability training into my sessions and a lot of my clients have said their back pain has really improved or even disappeared, and when they stop doing the exercises it comes back.

The exercises I would recommend are:

Holds
-prone hold/hover: on elbows and knees or toes. Take arch out of lower back
-supine hold: like what they do in yoga/pilates, on your back, raise up legs and bring spine off the floor
-Side holds: on elbow and knees or toes, lying sideways to work obliques

Leg Raises (bent knees, raise legs up and lower them until you feel your lower abs, then slowly lower one leg down, raise, and slowly lower other leg)

Pelvic Tilts (lie on ground, knees bent, back flat on floor, put fingers on pelvic bone and tilt pelvis towards you, using your lower abs, hold at end)

Hip Raises/Bridges (Raise hips/bum off the floor, lower it, and don't let bum touch the floor the whole time, also hold at the end)

That'll be $25 thanks
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(quadancer @ Dec. 05 2006,20:34)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Yes he is. And I asked Chickeneater in the other thread where he mentioned the guy about the methodology and hey, you didn't give me an answer.</div>
I know, I'm sorry I did'nt get into the content of the book, but I've done so in the past and don't know where to stop.
Again, like the last thread you mentioned, I hope I'm not coming off like a jerk,
I swear, my life is divided into two parts, pre book and post book.  And there is literally nothing else to do but read the book. No excercises, drugs, surgery, posture, etc...
sound crazy right? well, I guess I'd rather be crazy w/ no pain then sane w/ it. Ok, I'm done, I promise not to hijack back pain threads anymore w/ anything more than the title of the book that saved my life: Healing Back Pain!
 
I think there is a difference in your spine being out of alignment and having a herniated disk.

You can fall just &quot;right&quot; and put your back into proper alignment.

I know its not so called &quot;safe&quot; but my budies can take there hands with me lying face down on a floor and do the same thing the chiro does.

Again the chiro feels great but its a temporary fix sometimes.

My mother actually got to a point were she could not even walk...she went to the chiro and he adjusted her...she had zero pain the next day. Then 2 days later she couldn't walk again...she went to the chiro and it got worse. Come to find out the Chiro didn't help but actually ruptured her disc. It was about to rupture anyway according to the doctor the adjustments just made it happen faster. She had back surgery and feels great.

There is an article over at the notorious T-nation on ART chiropractic. I believe ART stands for Active Release Techinques or
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Something. Its basically alignment for athletes. You may want to look into that Quadancer. If you can't find it PM me and I will point you to the article.
 
A spine/disc can't be &quot;alligned&quot; or &quot;slip&quot; or be &quot;adjusted&quot;. The pops and cracks you get from a so called adjustment is gas being released. W/ out actual surgery there can be no &quot;adjustments&quot;.

Herniated/ruptured discs have only been diagnosed in the last 30 years w/ the introduction of the cat scan and later mri. The mri was a mixed blessing because while it can detect abnormalities far beyond x-rays it can lead to false diagnoses as to what is causing pain. eg. herniated disc.

ok, I'll get into the book a bit. In the 80's the New York Times wrote an article &quot;where have all the ulcers gone&quot;? Turned out that ulcers were linked to stress. When this was accepted by the medical community the mind could no longer give the body a &quot;distraction&quot; as to what was really bothering the person mentally and ceased to give the person the ulcer. Now when someone gets an ulcer, the diagnoses will be given a prefix such as &quot;peptic/gastric ulcer&quot; therefore the person will not feel like He/she is a head case.

In the last 30 years Back Pain has replaced ulcers as the hip trendy pain. (even newer is carpal tunnell) The brain actually reduces oxygen and blood flow to tendons, ligaments, nerves in the lumbar region (or neck/shoulder because postural muscles are a good target) in order to distract a person who has buried stress w/ out dealing w/ it. If you haven't delt w/ emotions/stress in your life (on the concious your ok, but your subconcious knows no timeline and what happened to you 10 yrs ago happened this morning for all it cares) then your subconcious is going nuts. And the body needs a distraction. Back pain is the perfect distraction.
Discs start degenerating b4 age 20. The very first disc L1 is totally gone by age 20 in every person. Then they start to degenerate from there on up. This is a normal process due to age and activity, there is nothing wrong w/ your back. But when the Mri came out, a doctor could see a bulge and say theres the problem. Autopsies have show herniated discs in people who never complained of bk pain. Because they never had an mri show it. If you (especially men) bury your stress and march on in life, well, if the body can make you think &quot;if it wasn't for this back pain my life w/b fine&quot;, then the distraction is perfect.
So, what are you supposed to do? Have no stress? Therapy? No. Simply accepting that buried emotions and not a physical injury is whats causing your pain will allieviate the mind from being able to cause the distration anymore. Many people (as I) have found that w/ out dealing w/ the stress further, that the mind will pick a new spot on the body for distraction like a stiff neck, gastrointestinal problems, etc. Also the &quot;fear&quot; of back pain returning is just as good if not a better distraction then the pain itself and will be allieviated for good after reading the book.
 
I'm having a bit of a hard time seeing my body as needing a &quot;distraction&quot; (as if it were sentient itself) so that my mind could bleed off some buried tensions and therefore my brain punishes my body by cutting off blood flow to parts of it, etc. Now, I DO understand that there is a psychosomatic connection between mind and body at times, and there has even been surgery done in some distant country without anesthesia by somehow getting people's minds to block out the pain.
But when I was hauling heavy equipment around, and lifting my massive steel ramps (200lbs. tip weight) up to ten times a day, I moved the wrong way one day and BAM!- the disc went out the backside. I was young, happy, had the greatest job in the world, a harley, girls and a buttload of drinkin' buddies. I thought I was in heaven, and there was no doubt I had very REAL back pain after that! I've since become a Christian, resolved my issues, forgiven my parents and had many hours of counseling to this effect. (Cleansing Stream and Living Waters)  The disc still bulges, the back still hurts. Chiropractic is temporary, yes, true. But it gets me off the floor when I go down!
Still, if Sanyo's stuff works for you, who am I to knock it. But I cannot and will not be hypnotised, ever. And obviously there is a faith issue with his methods. What we cannot/will not believe, we cannot recieve. It's the same in Christianity.

I'm thinking core stuff here. The stuff Peak put up is probably the same as Mr. Fokko Houwing...here's an excerpt from one of the 'testimonials'...(I don't trust website testimonials much...I can write too) :
letter from Ton
Hello Fokko,

Thank you so much for your answer to my questions.

Some of your exercises seem similar to what I used to do in high school and later during work as well.

I'd hate to buy the book and find out he's advocating Peak's stuff and glucosamine/chondroitin and just drinking water. That would tick me off. I would  like to know what he suggests to avoid  though. I may be eating a lot of it. I also would like to stop missing work due to bad 'back days', and feeling exhausted because of continual pain. And I notice that he has a money-back guarantee, if that's any good. I would prefer this &quot;book&quot; in a hardback, but it's a stupid download, so I'll have to wear out my printer I guess if I buy it. Or maybe stick it on my flash drive.
 
the book would explain your immediate back pain as the body looking for a trigger. I guess you'd have to read it to find out. But after reading your well written posts in this thread and others, I feel the book would be a breeze for you. It's free at the library, and from your posts, I swear, I was you. I could'nt accept anything other than a physical cure, until I realized nothing physical works.

At this point I have to concur that yes it worked for me, and don't want to downplay anything anyone has gone thru back pain wise. I just put it out there as an option. (the cheapest option for sure) and think that it's a &quot;must&quot; read for anyone w/ back pain, and hopefully at that point they can determine whether the mumbo jumbo is for them or not. I heard about the book a good 6mos b4 I caved into it. Was it 6 mos wasted? no, as skeptical as I was I needed to try everything physical 1st to see that I was out of options (except surgery).
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I've had that book for years.  I don't know about psychotherapy or hypnosis.  But I do know that often a damaged disk (herniation), or a flattened disk (spondylotheosis) CAN AND DOES cause real pain if there is a nerve impingement.  However, we all get them over time to some degree or other and often don't feel a thing.  They do not always cause pain.  Sometimes, stress is simply manifested physically.  When we are under stress or tension, and we hear, &quot;you've got X disease&quot; then we have a specific physical outlet for stress, increasing and intensifying the pain.

This is true in some cases and it is untrue on others.  I know personally that my SI joint injuries can be better in days.  Last time, I had several stressors on me that I simply couldn't deal with or handle so I was unable to heal the pain.  Once I got my mind to recognize and control the stressors, I was able to control the pain and concentrate on healing my body.

Kind of hokey sounding and not a magic cure all.  But in some cases it can help, in others, the physical problem must be fixed. It simply depends on the situation.  Another thing to remember is when we have physical pain from a physiological cause, being under excess stress can make the physical pain worse.

Resuming my kung fu training and meditation helped me control my SI pain.  It also helped me to focus on my goal of eleminating the cause of the stressor and the KF is going to help with that.  The goal of perfect training and the need to be in perfect form when the time to get rid of the stressor comes helps keep my focus on where it needs to be instead of on a silly little joint that has moved a bit too far.

However, don't take the mental aspect of things too far.  That would be like saying, &quot;your broken femur is sticking out of the front of your torn quadracep but it really doesn't hurt, it's your mind telling you that you should hurt because you see a jagged edge of a broken bone...silly boy.&quot;  Doesn't make much sense to blame it all on the mind when one looks at things that way does it?

Everything in balance my friends, balance.
 
at least I'm glad some attention is given to anything other than physical reasons. Yeah, a broken bone stickin out of you is gonna be painful, no argument there. But for shitz and giggles, the book does mention a scenario, not sure what war, but a study was done that showed that wounds that would be horribly painful in a normal setting, were not painful at all to soldiers that realized it was there ticket home
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(quadancer @ Dec. 06 2006,10:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I've since become a Christian, resolved my issues, forgiven my parents and had many hours of counseling to this effect. (Cleansing Stream and Living Waters)  The disc still bulges, the back still hurts. Chiropractic is temporary, yes, true. But it gets me off the floor when I go down!
Still, if Sanyo's stuff works for you, who am I to knock it. But I cannot and will not be hypnotised, ever. And obviously there is a faith issue with his methods. What we cannot/will not believe, we cannot recieve. It's the same in Christianity.</div>
Amen Brother!
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Since Vagrant has been such a great friend (we PM a lot) and been out to tell nothing but the truth as he knows it, and has the book, I got Dr. Sarno's book and am halfway or so through it...danged if it ain't startin' to work! I just did lever squats today at 500x3 and could have gotten more, but I'm allready ahead of the schedule. As V said, it's in the balance, so I've done this: Dr. Sarno's method involves full faith in it being mental, so you go and resume physical activities you'd quit before (for me, deads, heavy squats, abs) and deal w/ emotional issues, especially those at the time you thought you were &quot;injured&quot;. I had some issues at that time, and some more came to light now that I've begun thinking on it. I quit going to the chiro since it's just costing me money and not healing anything.
I've added in trunk twists, windmills, stretches and abwork aka the 5x5 program, since that's stuff you'd do with a good back anyway, so no &quot;faith&quot; issues there. I can't fully say wether it's the mental or the physical work additions, but regardless, this dual program is doing what the chiro did not. I may get that big deadlift yet! So far, so good, and there wasn't any hypnosis or whatsit in there after all.
And it's made me realize I never did really forgive my ex for her s#!t.
 
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