Does Hypertrophy require much excess calories?

Yeah i keep reading every where to spread ure meals evenly across the day , i do it when its possible but if its true that eating larger meal is as good then, that would be more practical for me...
Sometimes when i have to skip meals, i stay up late just to take one extra meal ( in addition to the snack i make myself before going to bed )...

so aside from pre/post workout meals, timing and frequency of meals isnt important ? just want to make sure this is what u guys are saying cuz this is some major info...
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Tom kristensen @ Jan. 05 2005,6:33)]@Aaron
So are you saying, it is as good to just eat 2 times a day compared to 5 times?
Or are you just saying it isn't proven scientificly, that 5 meals a day are the way to go.
I mean it would make the day a lot more easy to eat 2 big meals and maybe a little breakfast and post-workout.
You got some experience with 2 meals a day?
Greets
Tom
depends

two is probably the minimal workable, but even then its usually not perfect. 3 meals is ok
Currently I am on 3-4 meals and a snack, so I can maintain satiety on a reduced calorie diet. Multiple meals when bulking makes it far easier to consume the required calories

One of the links that salihyz put up earlier was entertaining, saying when fat loss ceases on a reduced calorie diet, instead of reducing cals further, eat double the amount of times per day. This can negatively influence fat loss, because small meals do not provide the satiety of a large meal (short term satiety (well satiety is short term anyway but...) is ratehr volumetric ie, A large meal volume increases satiety) and considering the insanity that dieting can lead to, how should I say, breaks in concentration or lapses in dieting.

so long story short, the best diet is one you can keep doing for the required time period.
 
What about the body's lacking ability of storing aminoacids?
It cant be optimal to eat two times a day, when you want muscle growth and therefore want constant aminoacid availability ??
 
First one: I cant get the full text right now, but Ive seen this study before and the protein intakes were absurdly low (about 60g/day IIRC) and in purely liquid form which is important (and not totally realistic). Not a very relevant study design for our purposes, ie BBer with an adequate (largely solid) protein intake.

Second one: Well, obese sedentary subjects are just about as far from lean BBers as you can get, but nevertheless it says 'In the short term, meal frequency and a period of fasting have no major impact on energy intake or expenditure', which bascially means meal frequency has no effect on weight loss. Body composition wasnt even measured in this study.

Third one: Again, obese sedentary subjects. This time they were fed just 800cals with shockingly low protein intakes (even the highest, 15%, works out at 30g/day), so its no wonder some LBM was lost. This set-up hardly compares to a trained individual with an adequate protein intake. Retarded study design at best!

And even though the authors make a conclusion associating increased meal frequency with increased LBM ('...a diet with a high-protein concentration, fed as frequent small meals, is associated with better preservation of lean tissue than an isoenergetic diet with lower-protein concentration fed as fewer meals...'), they make the acknowledgement that since the variables of meal frequency and protein intake werent separated out, its not valid to make any direct link between meal frequency and LBM retention (...this result reached significance only when the effects were combined...).

Fourth one: Slothlike fatties again, but still concludes:'There was no significant effect of meal frequency on 24 h EE [Energy Expenditure] or ADMR [Average Daily Metabolic Rate]. Furthermore, BMR [Basal Metabolic Rate] and ACT did not differ between the two patterns'. Also, 'no significant effect of meal frequency on the contribution of DIT [Dietary Induced Thermogenesis]to ADMR could be demonstrated'. Still no measure of body composition (isnt that what we're interested in here?)


Ugh, Im not having a go at you, but none of these studies do anything to prove what youre saying. The only one that comes close (the first one) was so poorly designed its results are meaningless in this context.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]What about the body's lacking ability of storing aminoacids?

It cant be optimal to eat two times a day, when you want muscle growth and therefore want constant aminoacid availability ??

In answer to your question, I agree, the body cannot store amino acids very well once they have been digested.

The 'trick' here is that solid protein sits for a long time, undigested, in the gut (which is I mentioned the liquid feeding in the first study - liquid=quicker gastric emptying). Look up the 'ileal brake mechanism' if you dont believe me.

What happens if you eat a lot of solid protein in one go (ie few large meals) is that it takes a long time leave the stomach and be digested (and we're talking more than a few hours for a big meal), thus supplying a constant 'drip drip' of aminos to the blood.

This is explained pretty well by thinking in evolutionary terms. In our past we would have had protein sporadically and in large amounts when we did (think of a tribe gorging on a kill). It would make no sense if the body made no use of this protein, oxidised it, and ended up losing lots of LBM. If this was the case then we probably wouldnt have survived very long as a species. The adaptation to this pulse feeding is to slowly digest the protein, evening out the supply somewhat (referring again to the importance of a totally liquid intake - protein shakes werent a staple part of the cavemans diet, so the body handles it a bit differently).

Im not saying that there arent other benefits to frequent feeding (eg controlling hunger if dieting or making it easier to get sufficient calories if appetite is poor), but that you wont lose LBM by eating 2-3 meals versus 6-8, given the same calories and adequate protein.

Anyway, its late and Im hungry! :D
 
quick Pauly, go and eat. Your muscles are wasting away and you are getting fat since you haven't eaten in 3 hours!

Bravo on that study-by-study shredding, btw
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Ugh, Im not having a go at you, but none of these studies do anything to prove what youre saying.
And what am I saying :confused:?
crazy.gif



I haven't been part of the discussion until now. I just saw people screeming for studies about meal frequency, but not one had been provided, so I was just kind to post what I had. I'm not trying to make a point with them. ;)



But let me comment on waht I was saying.

Yes protein takes time to digest, but with two big meals I really don't think the body will have the optimal aminoacid avalilability at all times.

The studies on whey and casein, offcause on fasted individuals, came to the conclusion that it respectively took about 4 and 7 hours before leucine levels had decreased to normal. But it will offcause take longer, when youre not fasting but eating big meals with your protein. But you also have to remember that the individuals were not training with weights why their need for protein was lower.
I think its reasonable to asume that to constantly provide the body with aminoacids at all times, you probably have to split it up in 3 meals.

I just know that I'm not taking any chances when it comes to this.
 
Sorry then if I got the wrong end of the stick, but the post you made before you posted the studies made me think you were of the belief that more meals is better for LBM.

Obviously, arguing about two extremes (1 meal vs loads) is kind of pointless since noone realistically eats once or twice a day anyway. Not people that take training very seriously at least.

I dont think I could physically eat enough at each sitting to only eat twice-a-day anyway. I get four proper meals in every day (breakfast, lunch, dinner, pre-bed) plus my pre/post WO protein whatever time of day that is.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (ugh togoth @ Jan. 06 2005,11:37)]What about the body's lacking ability of storing aminoacids?
depends on what model you look into, traditionally it was known as the labile protein reserves or a free amino acid pool.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The studies on whey and casein, offcause on fasted individuals, came to the conclusion that it respectively took about 4 and 7 hours before leucine levels had decreased to normal. But it will offcause take longer, when youre not fasting but eating big meals with your protein. But you also have to remember that the individuals were not training with weights why their need for protein was lower.
30g of protien in a liquid format given after an overnight fast, not really applicable for anything in reality.
 
Aaron:
Do you have any other better studies that indicate the absorption rate of protein?
I'd really like to se them.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (ugh togoth @ Jan. 06 2005,4:42)]Aaron:
Do you have any other better studies that indicate the absorption rate of protein?
I'd really like to se them.
What do you mean absorption rates? Speed of start? Length of availability? The 2 meal scenario though not ideal is plausible. With IBM in place and a LARGE meal (think 1000-1500 kcal for maintenance for example) it can take 10-12 hours for total gastric dumping.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Cliner9er @ Jan. 07 2005,3:21)]What do you mean absorption rates? Speed of start? Length of availability? The 2 meal scenario though not ideal is plausible. With IBM in place and a LARGE meal (think 1000-1500 kcal for maintenance for example) it can take 10-12 hours for total gastric dumping.
mmm, dumping
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (ugh togoth @ Jan. 06 2005,3:42)]Aaron:
Do you have any other better studies that indicate the absorption rate of protein?
I'd really like to se them.
Slow and fast dietary proteins differently modulate postprandial protein accretion

<a href="http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/280/2/E340?ijkey=c7afa4fed3a504e9ff5073e52458be43252e6213" target="_blank">The digestion rate of protein is an independent regulating factor of postprandial protein retention
</a>

Influence of the Protein Digestion Rate on Protein Turnover in Young and Elderly Subjects
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Aaron_F @ Jan. 06 2005,5:54)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Cliner9er @ Jan. 07 2005,3:21)]What do you mean absorption rates? Speed of start? Length of availability? The 2 meal scenario though not ideal is plausible. With IBM in place and a LARGE meal (think 1000-1500 kcal for maintenance for example) it can take 10-12 hours for total gastric dumping.
mmm, dumping
The best part of gastric &quot;dumping&quot;.
 
A university of Toronto study conducted at St. Micheal's Hospital in Ontario, Canada, looked at two metabolically identical diets in two ways. One group of subjects ate three meals a day; second group are 17 snacks each day (nibblers&#33;).1
Once the data were analyzed, the nibblers' total and low-density-lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol were lower, yet free fatty acids and triglycerides were similar to the regular diet. This is generally a good thing, but the nibblers' insulin levels decreased by 28% -- not necessarilly a good thing for bodybuilders. On the other hand, the mean 24-hour cortisol excretion rates decreased by 17.3%; generally speaking good for bodybuilders.
The moral of the story? More meals can be beneficial.
it goes without saying that staying as lean as possible while gaining muscle mass is pretty high on our priorty list. Consider futher research out of the department of human biology at the University of Limburg, Maastricht, The Netherlands, that looked at a two-times-a-day (gorgers) and seven-times-a-day (grazers) meal pattern of equal energy values. The researchers found that carbonhydrate and fat oxidation remained relatively constant during the day for grazers; gorgers experienced much greater fluctuations. This study suggests that gorgers are more prone to become overweight, possibly by an elevated fat synthesis or storage of energy after the meal.2
REFERENCES
1.jenkins, D:J:, Wolever, T.M., Vuksan, V., et al. Nibbling versus gorging: metabolic advantages of increased meal frequency. New England Journal of Medicine 321(14):929-934, 1989.
2.Verboeket-van de Venne, W.P., Westerterp, K.R. influence of the feeding frequency on nutrient utilization in man: consequences for energy metabolism. European Journal of Clinical Nutrition 45(3): 161-169, 1991.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Shard @ Jan. 09 2005,8:32)]1.jenkins, D:J:, Wolever, T.M., Vuksan, V., et al. Nibbling versus gorging: metabolic advantages of increased meal frequency. New England Journal of Medicine 321(14):929-934, 1989.
2.Verboeket-van de Venne, W.P., Westerterp, K.R. influence of the feeding frequency on nutrient utilization in man: consequences for energy metabolism. European Journal of Clinical Nutrition 45(3): 161-169, 1991.
1) doesnt actually show a lot in the abstract, but what it clearly shows is eating frequently mimmics a low GI food source, it also doesnt show what the actual food they ate during the period was. metabolically equal diet doesnt equate to identical diets. However, while bbrs are 'excessive' over cortisol, normal physiological range is nothing to get extreme about, its when you have excessive (supra-physiological) that things start getting messed up.
2) However, there were no consequences for the total 24 h energy expenditure (24 h EE) of the two feeding patterns (5.57 +/- 0.16 kJ/min for the gorging pattern; 5.44 +/- 0.18 kJ/min for the nibbling pattern).


there is an interesting looking paper on the subject in this months ACJN that I havent gotten around to reading either.
 
Regarding the original topic--marginal caloric surplus. I have been spinning my wheels for the past two HST cycles, where I would travel from 10 to 12%, then cut down, repeating this over and over. It worked for a while but now I keep going from ~187 lbs lbm to 194 lbs lbm each time. A never ending cycle. My diet is very clean, and I am at either a 500 surplus or defecit.
Under circumstances such as these, would I do better with a body recomposition routine( perhaps 250 calories surplus )?
What exactly would occur If I ate maintenance as Bryan suggested? In my own logic it would seem better to be slightly over, but I am only curious.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (sentricyphen @ Jan. 10 2005,10:32)]Regarding the original topic--marginal caloric surplus. I have been spinning my wheels for the past two HST cycles, where I would travel from 10 to 12%, then cut down, repeating this over and over. It worked for a while but now I keep going from ~187 lbs lbm to 194 lbs lbm each time. A never ending cycle. My diet is very clean, and I am at either a 500 surplus or defecit.
Under circumstances such as these, would I do better with a body recomposition routine( perhaps 250 calories surplus )?
What exactly would occur If I ate maintenance as Bryan suggested? In my own logic it would seem better to be slightly over, but I am only curious.
Me too. Bryan's comment:

&quot;If you don't want to add any additional fat, you should eat at maintenance calories.&quot;

This totally blows my mind. Is this really possible? Can you actually add LBM without eating above maint?

O&amp;G has several times mentioned that he packed on LBM and reduced BF over 2 years eating at 250 above maint the whole time. He got bigger and leaner.

After spending 8 weeks cutting I don't want to do that again. I am really thinking about doing what O&amp;G does. I don't care if I only gain a pound or 2 in a cycle if I know it's completely lean. That's one less pound of cutting.

I'm really starting to feel that the slow and steady pace is a better way to do it. Cheaper food bills, and no more cutting cycles.

My next cycle will be like O&amp;G's, I will eat only 250 above maint and see what happens. On SD now, 7 more days to go.
 
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